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Stop right there. When the heck did this game turn into a "Build THIS way or you're WRONG?" type of game?|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
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This is flawed logic. You should NOT be penalized for building in any way that is not acceptable to you! A player who plays with SOs (IE: A new player, be it F2P or VIP) is just as acceptable and justified as someone who goes out of their way to entirely break the game.
The moment you say someone is 'unintelligent' or 'uninformed', is the exact moment I think the IO system needs to be obliterated. Do not bring blatant elitism into this.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Stop right there. When the heck did this game turn into a "Build THIS way or you're WRONG?" type of game?
This is flawed logic. You should NOT be penalized for building in any way that is not acceptable to you! A player who plays with SOs (IE: A new player, be it F2P or VIP) is just as acceptable and justified as someone who goes out of their way to entirely break the game. The moment you say someone is 'unintelligent' or 'uninformed', is the exact moment I think the IO system needs to be obliterated. Do not bring blatant elitism into this. |
I love running trials on my fire aura brute who doesnt have defenses built into him. I face plant constantly and dont carry my own weight.
(Before someone has a hissy, I'm mostly joking. this character does exist tho)
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This isn't about personal standards, it's about character performance. Fulmens was talking about a marginal performance gap between high end and low end Blasters- His point presumes 'right' and 'wrong,' I was simply elaborating upon that train of thought from the perspective of the presumed 'right.'|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Stop right there. When the heck did this game turn into a "Build THIS way or you're WRONG?" type of game?
This is flawed logic. You should NOT be penalized for building in any way that is not acceptable to you! A player who plays with SOs (IE: A new player, be it F2P or VIP) is just as acceptable and justified as someone who goes out of their way to entirely break the game. |
Editing to elaborate...
Your fun, and your roleplaying, etc. should not be dictated by a notion of right and wrong, since 'fun' is subjective. If we're talking about an unbiased analysis of character performance though, mechanics come into play. Building 'right,' or building a character that is capable of withstanding what the game has to offer, is obviously going to yield better results than building 'wrong,' or building a character that is incapable of withstanding what the game has to offer.
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The players that decide not to study build craft, not memorize paragonwiki, not fall asleep to my guides, they should not expect to have the same performance as the players that do.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
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BUT, they should get the performance promised to them by a game that states unequivocally that such things are not necessary to achieve the minimum performance the game intends playing the core content. The notion that such people should be educated on how to gain higher performance presumes that no one deserves *any* level of performance without a significant level of effort. This game does not say that. This game, and every dev team that has developed it, has stated the opposite. Its also for the most part been implemented to allow such players to achieve good things without all that effort. When that's not possible, that is the exception to the rule, not the rule itself.
Until the devs say that blasters are hard mode, they do not get extended the latitude that "some" things just require more effort. The playstyle itself may be harder, or not as approachable, and that's fine: the game specifically intends to support different playstyles, and by definition playstyles can't be balanced. But factoring that out, the *tools* given to players to execute their playstyles should not be judged based on what the best players can do with them, i.e. their potential, but rather on what the average player actually does with them, which is their intrinsic value to the game.
Fulmens: the difference in survival between the two points specified is about 70 times higher.
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Quote:
Intelligent building... that might be an issue, I think. They shouldn't be *forced* to build for defense because of a reward model that is so much farther past building for (say) damage, which is the Blaster AT role. This is a thread about Blasters, right? |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
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Nothing definitive here, just woolgathering, food for thought.
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You know, I'd actually believe this without doing the numbers out, so much more exaggerated is the effect from Drain Psyche. I think that Blasters are a particularly vulnerable AT to this effect because they have so little innate avoidance and mitigation, so that when they DO get it, it has an exaggerated effect. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Fulmens: the difference in survival between the two points specified is about 70 times higher.
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70x, though, that's nuts. That like saying that if you're playing Mental Manipulation you gain a bonus of almost 85,000 max health. That's taking some getting used to in my head.
Hello guys, here's my 2 inf:
The dev line that they "balance around SOs" has taken a whole new meaning with the arrival of Free and Premium players, who are locked out of the IO system and may not be able to afford it. If you're going to argue that Blasters are fine solely because they can function when slotted with IOs in a particular way, you might as well switch Blasters for Controllers as the AT Freemiums are not allowed.
The performance of any archetype, including Blasters, should stem first and foremost from the way their powers work. Defense bonuses shouldn't be the first line of protection for any character whose powers don't directly provide defense.
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There should be dozens of ways to build "properly."|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
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It is important to remember that no one is saying min/maxing should not have benefits. It must. But to use two of your examples:
The difference in survivability for a PB running normal shields, with the potential for Dwarf, while occasionally using Lightbringer is not that far removed from someone running perma-LB.
Willpower may be "easy mode" to get to a nice level of survivability, but it also can be min/maxed to extreme levels of survivability, but since it started so high, still within a good range.
In my mind, those two in particular are good examples of power (and powerset) design.
Drain Psyche, OTOH, has a range that is too far apart. On the low end it is OK (by current blaster standards), in the middle it has a solid boost, then on the really high end it is just too much (not for blasters, for anyone). And that isn't just for build effort, that is also how the power itself scales.
THB, it should be noted that the Devs do advocate somewhat for the min/maxer when they think they can. If this wasn't true, they would already have announced they were fixing Drain Psyche to still be very good, but have both its lower end and upper end fall within a more reasonable range of each other. Changing Drain Psyche in the way most are asking doesn't even violate the cottage rule, but the devs are still resistant to make the change and it isn't because they think it is better for the average player, it is because they don't want to adjust the game for people like you.
You can advocate leaving Drain Psyche as is and know the devs have not only considered your position, but at this point they agree with you. The first thing I thought when I heard they were not changing Drain Psyche was, "It isn't proper that the other secondaries get a power that is much easier to use and can be used by rangers while Drain Psyche is stuck with legacy limitations." I will be advocating for Drain Psyche to go up at the bottom and come down at the top, because I believe that is the best scenario. So far, you are winning the debate, however.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Well I don't believe it. There has to be some miscalculation somewhere...
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
You know, I'd actually believe this without doing the numbers out, so much more exaggerated is the effect from Drain Psyche. I think that Blasters are a particularly vulnerable AT to this effect because they have so little innate avoidance and mitigation, so that when they DO get it, it has an exaggerated effect.
70x, though, that's nuts. That like saying that if you're playing Mental Manipulation you gain a bonus of almost 85,000 max health. That's taking some getting used to in my head. |
I do.
10% defense with 140% regen vs 45% defense and 1600% regen. That's a very easy call.
EDIT: I'll work out the math right here and get a real number for you.
Question: How much damage will it take to damage blaster #1 by 10% of his health versus blaster #2? We'll assume for the moment that each Blaster has base health - 1204. So the question becomes, how much damage does it take to deal 120 damage to the Blaster.
Well, the defense bonuses mean that both have some survival ability. The +10% defense of the first blaster means he gets hit 40% of the time vice 50% from a minion, so we'll go with him taking 20% less damage than he would otherwise. The +45% defense of the second blaster means he gets hit 5% of the time by that same minion, so he's taking 95% less damage than he would otherwise. So the first blaster has to be hit for 150 damage' worth of attacks to lose 10% of his health... not a huge difference, but noticeable. The other guy has to be hit by 2400 damage' worth of attacks to lose that same 10% of his health. That's a pretty drastic difference!
Now, let's look at the effect regeneration has on the blaster. At 1204 health, normal blaster regeneration is 5.04 health a second, which gives us a full health bar after 4 minutes (240 seconds). So the Blaster who has Health is at 140% regeneration as Health gives you 40% additional regeneration... he's healing 7.03 health per second. The blaster who runs Drain Psyche buffed out will heal at 1640% health per second - he has Health too - or 84.39 health per second. That's a huge difference! The second Blaster is healing at 12 times the speed of the first blaster, and will have a full Health bar every 15 seconds.
Now, how do we express this in a way that makes sense? The best illustration, I think, is to take the the same value of damage and see what it does to the Blasters in question. Let's take 100 damage a second, because it's a fat round number. The first Blaster's defense reduces that number over the long term by 20%, so he's taking 80 damage a second as opposed to 100. He's also healing back 7.03 health a second, so that number is now down to 72.97 damage per second. The two types of mitigation, defense and regeneration, work together to have a greater impact than either one of them would have alone. Is it enough to keep our Blaster alive? No, it is not. The Blaster will die after 16.5 seconds. Assuming he doesn't get locked down, 16.5 seconds is often plenty of time to defeat a normal spawn, especially if the Blaster is smart and locks down the more dangerous members of the mob somehow, be it through a hold, a knockdown, or what have you.
What about the second blaster? Well, the second Blaster will reduce that 100 damage by 95% over the long term, so he will take 5 damage a second from that. He will also heal back 84.39 Health a second, which brings that damage number to -79.39 health per second. Is that enough to keep him alive? Not only will he live, he'll actually end up with more Health than he lost almost 16 times over. In fact, given that the second Blaster heals 84.39 Health back, it will take (84.39*20) damage per second, or 1687.8 DPS, to deal one damage to the Blaster. To kill this Blaster in 16.5 seconds, you'd have to maintain 3147.8 damage on him per second, or a total of 51,938 damage. That is doable by only the most powerful villain groups and requires large numbers, and notably is sufficient damage to kill the first blaster in less than a second... in fact we'll lose 43.1 of the first Blaster before the second Blaster dies. And frankly, we haven't talked about resistance buffs, max health increases, or any of the other tools available to the second Blaster, all of which will get more mileage out of the Drain Psyche regen buff than they will on the first Blaster.
As we can see, the first Blaster will die relatively easily to 100 damage a second of incoming damage, but the second Blaster will hardly notice it. That's a pretty absurd difference! What's even more absurd is that the kind of damage to do a little damage to the second guy is enough to instantly kill the first guy.
A few caveats: first off, the second guy is pretty vulnerable to debuffs. If his defense is debuffed somehow his survivability will drop like a rock (of course, the same -Defense debuff will spell doom to the first guy). Second, defense only works in a percentage sense over the long term. In the short term, unlucky rolls can conceivably whack the second guy pretty good... but of course the same thing can apply to the second guy, who doesn't have 84.39 health per second to fall back on as a safety net. Also, less damage will kill both more slowly, but the volume of damage it takes to do kill the first guy in 30 seconds will do exactly zero damage to the second guy. The volume of damage it takes to kill the second guy in 30 seconds (2491 DPS) will kill the first guy outright in one second with some damage left over.
So after doing the math, I'd say that our Drain Psyche guy is 43 times as survivable as the normal Blaster if each is taking 6.25% of their life at a time. If taking less than that, the distance between the first Blaster and the second only grows wider. The second Blaster has an effective health that depends on the amount of damage being dealt to him at one time, but is ~52,000 if taking 6.25% of his health at a time. Very few Scrappers can hit that kind of mitigation.
I hope that clears things up.
Rakeeb: There's a mistake in your math, but the difference is still enormous and the qualitative truth is still there.
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Getting hit 5% of the time instead of 50% of the time is taking 90% less damage than he would otherwise. So 1200 damage worth of attacks instead of 2400. Eight times less damage, not sixteen; still ludicrously tougher and not playing the same game. | Well, the defense bonuses mean that both have some survival ability. The +10% defense of the first blaster means he gets hit 40% of the time vice 50% from a minion, so we'll go with him taking 20% less damage than he would otherwise. The +45% defense of the second blaster means he gets hit 5% of the time by that same minion, so he's taking 95% less damage than he would otherwise. So the first blaster has to be hit for 150 damage' worth of attacks to lose 10% of his health... not a huge difference, but noticeable. The other guy has to be hit by 2400 damage' worth of attacks to lose that same 10% of his health. That's a pretty drastic difference! |
TwoHeadedBoy: I think other people have pretty much made my responses. "You're stupid and you're wrong for playing the game your way and not my way" is not, really, a good approach; especially not when you're talking about tools that are not in your character's primary or secondary. Especially when you're saying people are stupid and wrong for taking, what, 6 out of 7 secondaries for Blasters.
If you're seventy times tougher than me, we are not playing the same game. We should not be on the same team. The devs have fallen down here.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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So, if I choose to build a character differently from how you would build it.....|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
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.....I'm doing it wrong and am therefore an unintelligent builder?
I'm having difficulty expressing how I feel about that sentiment. "Get stuffed" comes pretty close though.
So, get stuffed.
I'm perfectly capable of building my characters to any build goal or metric I see fit. If you think that makes me "wrong", well you're entitled to your opinion on that.
Just as I'm entitled to the opinion that your opinion makes you an idiot.
Take care, champ.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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And for an idea of how well the first option would work out, I give you MA missions with custom enemies. =P
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
There were two games, really: the tough guys and the not-so-tough guys. And the devs could either build something that would challenge the tough guys and slaughter everyone else faster than they could hit a green insp [literally] or build something that was trivial to the tough guys and balanced for everyone else.
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you must be a real hoot at parties.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player.
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That is complete and utter BS. I know how to build Blasters. I have a nearly softcapped AR/Dev Blaster and a Beam/Dev Blaster I'm planning to softcap when he hits 50. But you know something, I rarely, if ever, bother to slot Set IOs while leveling up (with the exception of a few global IOs and a few special cases where IOs make a huge difference). There's various reasons for that but a large chunk of it is that I like to see how a character truly performs without set bonuses so I can better understand the tools they have available.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
|
I'll also add that when playing with SOs a Blaster clearly underperforms pretty much every other AT in the game. I've leveled a good number of ATs in the game to 50 (I haven't played Widows, Brutes, Stalkers or Peacebringers and my Dominator is only level 36) and feel confident in saying that the only character who came anywhere near to my Blasters' solo performance was my Dual Pistols/Storm Corruptor and I'm pretty sure that was mostly that I really suck at using Storm effectively. Even my Defenders outperformed my Blasters and one of them was Electrical Blast (which is widely regarded as underperforming although I like it). Heck my Earth/Storm Controller had an easier time soloing than my Blasters (although I did have to frankenslot some IOs into his control powers to get a mix of damage and control).
I agree with THB a little bit, even though I think he always goes about things in the worst possible way. I don't agree that there is a right and wrong way to build, and if there is, 99.9% of my own builds are not the right way. I still make them work. There are ways to get better results out of powersets, and ways that miss opportunities. Then a whole range of levels of success in between.
That being said, the way that DP scales from "wrong" to "right" does indicate that it is somewhat broken. I only have 1 /mm blaster at a low level, so I will have to use my doms as examples. I think the general idea still applies.
I have a plant/psy/fire dom that just owns the game. No purples/pvp IOs, and still walks through +4x8 missions almost like they are nothing. Ive been on a pug where someone asked the tank where to go next and he replied "I dunno, I'm just following [my dom]." The combo is just ridiculous and OP.
Because of this I rolled an elec/psy/ice dom, thinking that DP would carry my build again. It did not. Turns out seeds of confusion+carrion creepers+drain psyche=tankinator, but drain psyche without an extremely good distraction (or in THBs case softcapped defense) is just meh. I built both toons with similar levels of investment, and I assume I play them both with the same level of skill.
Ive been thinking about this since the blaster changes were announced, and Im starting to think I wouldn't mind seeing the top of DP brought down a little in order to bring the bottom up. On SOs drain psyche is not that impressive, on a moderate build it is okay, and in certain fringe cases or extreme investments it is a god mode. So when THB says there is a "right way" to build with DP he is somewhat right, though that also shows that the power is in fact broken. There should be a smoother range of results with investment.
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My rough estimate calculation goes like this:|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well I don't believe it. There has to be some miscalculation somewhere...
|
Blaster with slotted health ~ 200% regen (178% with 1.95 slotting and no other bonuses). DP saturates at about +1500% regen (+1463 with 1.95 slotting).
All other things being equal, the DP saturated blaster can take 8.5x more damage over time (1700/200).
On top of that, the soft capped blaster is getting hit 8 times less often than the blaster with only 10% defense (50-10 / 50 - 45). That means the soft-capped DP saturated blaster can sustain about 68 times more damage than the one with slotted health and about 10% defense, or about 70x.
Doing the more accurate calculation instead of the estimate in my head, I get 73.75x more survivable.
Edit: Incidentally, for reference my estimate for how much more dangerous a +4x8 spawn is relative to a +0x1 spawn is 60-80x more dangerous just in terms of damage output alone.
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A few errors in here:|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
I do.
10% defense with 140% regen vs 45% defense and 1600% regen. That's a very easy call. |
180% vs 1680: unslotted Health is +40% regen and DP does +75% unslotted per target.
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Question: How much damage will it take to damage blaster #1 by 10% of his health versus blaster #2? We'll assume for the moment that each Blaster has base health - 1204. So the question becomes, how much damage does it take to deal 120 damage to the Blaster. Well, the defense bonuses mean that both have some survival ability. The +10% defense of the first blaster means he gets hit 40% of the time vice 50% from a minion, so we'll go with him taking 20% less damage than he would otherwise. The +45% defense of the second blaster means he gets hit 5% of the time by that same minion, so he's taking 95% less damage than he would otherwise. So the first blaster has to be hit for 150 damage' worth of attacks to lose 10% of his health... not a huge difference, but noticeable. The other guy has to be hit by 2400 damage' worth of attacks to lose that same 10% of his health. That's a pretty drastic difference! |
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| Now, let's look at the effect regeneration has on the blaster. At 1204 health, normal blaster regeneration is 5.04 health a second, which gives us a full health bar after 4 minutes (240 seconds). So the Blaster who has Health is at 140% regeneration as Health gives you 40% additional regeneration... he's healing 7.03 health per second. The blaster who runs Drain Psyche buffed out will heal at 1640% health per second - he has Health too - or 84.39 health per second. That's a huge difference! The second Blaster is healing at 12 times the speed of the first blaster, and will have a full Health bar every 15 seconds. |
I think with those corrections the rest of the numbers follow, except for:
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| So after doing the math, I'd say that our Drain Psyche guy is 43 times as survivable as the normal Blaster if each is taking 6.25% of their life at a time. |
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Thanks for pointing this out. It's fixed in the upcoming version.
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Originally Posted by Intrinsic
Mids does not correctly calculate the DoT effect on a fire blaster's attacks.
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Theres 2 problems with these kind of calculations both the above Rakeebs.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My rough estimate calculation goes like this:
Blaster with slotted health ~ 200% regen (178% with 1.95 slotting and no other bonuses). DP saturates at about +1500% regen (+1463 with 1.95 slotting). All other things being equal, the DP saturated blaster can take 8.5x more damage over time (1700/200). On top of that, the soft capped blaster is getting hit 8 times less often than the blaster with only 10% defense (50-10 / 50 - 45). That means the soft-capped DP saturated blaster can sustain about 68 times more damage than the one with slotted health and about 10% defense, or about 70x. Doing the more accurate calculation instead of the estimate in my head, I get 73.75x more survivable. Edit: Incidentally, for reference my estimate for how much more dangerous a +4x8 spawn is relative to a +0x1 spawn is 60-80x more dangerous just in terms of damage output alone. |
Mathematically they are fine but they are operating on incomplete descriptions of the situation.
In order to get a fully saturated drain psyche the blaster has to spend 1.5 seconds doing nothing in melee. Second the enemies must not be able to mez the high defense blaster. A single mez to the high defense blaster will knockout roughly half their survivability.
Both also completely discount dealing with spawns in a strategic fashion instead of employing methods that are suited for one build but not another.
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It's been stated already, but I figured I'd chime in too, since it actually applies to me.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player.
|
My blaster has less than 10% defense. I've had him since 2004. I truly know how to play blasters, having done it for almost a decade. I also know what IO's do and how powerful they are. But my blaster still has mostly just SO's. I simply despise the market system. It is the exact opposite of fun for me, and I try to avoid it.
In fact, only one of my toons (my main) is fully IO'd, while the rest have only a select few uniques. And yet I am able to do pretty much everything, except stuff that you're not meant to be able to do , like soloing TF's and such.
You have to realize that not everybody's goal is to completely trivialize every single aspect of the game. Fun can be had without being the absolute most powerful that you can possibly be in theory. And being this way doesn't make people unintelligent or uninformed. Having a more expensive build than someone doesn't make you a better player than them, or more knowledgeable. It just means that you've chosen to spend your time sitting in the market, instead of actually killing bad guys.
That's not to say that there aren't stupid or ignorant players out there. But your generalization was a bit much.
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Those are acknowledged issues with *all* calculations. But when someone asks what the soft cap is, I say 45% outside of tohit buffs and defense debuffs, except for the 59% for praetorians. I don't usually give a lecture on all the ways tohit can be changed, unless that's actually the subject being discussed, whereupon I do mention all the problems with oversimplifying defense that way.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Theres 2 problems with these kind of calculations both the above Rakeebs.
Mathematically they are fine but they are operating on incomplete descriptions of the situation. In order to get a fully saturated drain psyche the blaster has to spend 1.5 seconds doing nothing in melee. Second the enemies must not be able to mez the high defense blaster. A single mez to the high defense blaster will knockout roughly half their survivability. Both also completely discount dealing with spawns in a strategic fashion instead of employing methods that are suited for one build but not another. |
The question was: "where is the line of immortality for a S/L capped fully-Drain Psyche'd Blaster? Where is it for a blaster with 10% Defense and slotted health?" If you have a problem with the question, you should take it up with the person asking the question.
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Bingo! We have a winner. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Rakeeb: There's a mistake in your math, but the difference is still enormous and the qualitative truth is still there.
Getting hit 5% of the time instead of 50% of the time is taking 90% less damage than he would otherwise. So 1200 damage worth of attacks instead of 2400. Eight times less damage, not sixteen; still ludicrously tougher and not playing the same game. TwoHeadedBoy: I think other people have pretty much made my responses. "You're stupid and you're wrong for playing the game your way and not my way" is not, really, a good approach; especially not when you're talking about tools that are not in your character's primary or secondary. Especially when you're saying people are stupid and wrong for taking, what, 6 out of 7 secondaries for Blasters. If you're seventy times tougher than me, we are not playing the same game. We should not be on the same team. The devs have fallen down here. |
Blaster changes won't change things much, still too much glass and not enough cannon (In general, excluding DP) Too many other ATs do too much damage.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Quote:
I never said anyone was stupid or wrong for playing the game or not playing the game a certain way. The game is really easy enough that even with this performance gap we're discussing, the low end can still accomplish standard gameplay goals. A Blaster on SO's can solo SSA's and other solo level 50 missions, granted on lower difficulty settings. They can contribute to TF's and trials. They just can't do any of those things as well as a high end Blaster could, and they can't match the difficulty settings. The right and wrong to which I was referring was in a scenario where only one of the two build approaches was able to accomplish certain goals. Obviously the one who can accomplish those goals for that example is 'right,' and the one who can't is 'wrong.' |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
R
TwoHeadedBoy: I think other people have pretty much made my responses. "You're stupid and you're wrong for playing the game your way and not my way" is not, really, a good approach; especially not when you're talking about tools that are not in your character's primary or secondary. Especially when you're saying people are stupid and wrong for taking, what, 6 out of 7 secondaries for Blasters. If you're seventy times tougher than me, we are not playing the same game. We should not be on the same team. The devs have fallen down here. |
What I wanted to point out is that the divide is self imposed by those on the 'wrong' side, since there's nothing stopping them from altering their approach. It's like say, I'm racing someone to the store who's in just as good of shape as me, but they're running and I'm walking, so I lose. First, I didn't have to race anyone- If I was content getting to the store at a slower pace, and I didn't want to be able to get there as fast as the other guy, that would've been fine. However, he won the race, because I chose to participate, and I chose not to run. If I wanted to, I could've run, just like if people with low end Blasters wanted to, they could have high end Blasters. Now, your perspective in this example is that the guy who ran should have his shoes taken off so that our results are more even with one another, our speeds are closer matched, and I should be able to walk all I want and still compete in the race.
Edit: I do agree that other secondaries should be buffed to be competitive with Mental. I never said otherwise, I think it's a great change... I just don't think that Mental needs to change, and that included Drain Psyche. People already do awesome things with /Mental and the alterations people want for DP would decrease high end performance of the set in order to make it easier for those with low end builds. See my 'race' analogy for how I feel about that. I shouldn't have to lose my shoes because the other guy wants to walk.
I don't know what HER perspective is. MY perspective is that no two people playing the same AT, played by people who have avoided the obvious pitfalls, should be more than, say, a factor of 5 apart in performance.
YOUR perspective, and maybe you don't realize this, is that a moderately skilled player with a sufficiently expensive build and the right powersets should be 20 times tougher than someone who did not make that choice. Maybe more- Arcanaville, where is the line of immortality for a S/L capped fully-Drain Psyche'd Blaster? Where is it for a blaster with 10% Defense and slotted health?