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Sure. |
Originally Posted by Garent
I'm having trouble parsing the data. Can you explain the difference between these three values, please?
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The first value (in both damage and base DPS) is the attacks' baseline damage, as if you had put no Enhancements in the power. The second set is assuming you've slotted aggressively for damage in both enhancements and Incarnate powers (345%). The third set is taking the second set and then figuring out how much consistent damage Defiance will be giving you, and working with that.
Hope that helps - a more detailed breakdown is in the first post.
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Great question - bottom line is that I didn't play with it at all.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Very nice
I didn't see it explicitly mentioned, so just to ask how did you allow for aim in the primaries that have it ? Edit: Also Noticed you were using flares in the fire attack chain instead of fireball. |
Where Fire is concerned, I did put Flares in there, yeah... I did a fast pass, and I certainly can't claim to know the little tricks in various Blaster sets, like using an AOE for a single target damage boost because it animates so fast. More arguments for using animation time as a balancing factor on the meta level, I guess.
Interesting stuff.
Not too seem rude or belittle the obvious effort you put in...but...you are comparing the absolute best case in all the sets. max slotting, huge rech, all damage boosts, AND perma to hit. Sure, great for those max situations..but how often are everyone of those conditions going to apply?
Not to mention, there is quite a big gap between a lvling up blaster..and the super IO'd to the max end game blaster (as there is with any build).
I just think a comparison and lower, average levels would help more. Well..maybe not more, but different people.
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That's the idea. It's meant to be a graph of every set's maximum potential under the IO system.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Not too seem rude or belittle the obvious effort you put in...but...you are comparing the absolute best case in all the sets.
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Yeah I know its the idea. And does a good job of that. I am saying..how OFTEN does anything hit utterly max performance? I doubt that would have been the devs focus with the changes..more middle of the road, average player.
Maybe..add MAX into the title of the thread?
...whoah. That's a hella lot of work. Thanks!
(reads)
Ya know, I am completely fine with AR doing more base damage than fire. Fire does sick AOE and fire damage is MUCH less resisted. And frankly, AR is as iconic a set for shooty players as SS is for tanks/brutes. I SHOULD BE MOAR SHOOTY.
This change is good for the game. (thumbs up)
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Originally Posted by mauk2
...whoah. That's a hella lot of work. Thanks!
(reads) Ya know, I am completely fine with AR doing more base damage than fire. Fire does sick AOE and fire damage is MUCH less resisted. And frankly, AR is as iconic a set for shooty players as SS is for tanks/brutes. I SHOULD BE MOAR SHOOTY. This change is good for the game. (thumbs up) |
AR now has the best Single target and best sustained AoE the only thing it doesn't have is the best burst AoE. It has 3 excellent AoE attacks that it can keep firing one after the other (buckshot, grenade, flamethrower). A crashless nuke on top of that and Ignite again.
Its hard to argue that a set can throw down
Full Auto->Buckshot->flamethrower->M30 grenade
And repeat at buckshot. Is ridiculously good to begin with now it has the best single target chain as well ? My AR blasters are going to love it, but really fixing the set by making it horrendously over powered ?
I would have been plenty happy if they just adjusted the range of some of the cone attacks to be more consistent and adjusted the recharge time of the single target attacks.
Edit: This really is a great argument that no matter what you do you should plan on doing the work to adjust individual sets to keep them in line. Right now we have a 50% variance between top and bottom on single target assuming everyone can get the new benefit. If they can't the bottom performers are going to be even worse.
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From the store bought version on beta Achilles Heel is dropping a tier from 20% to 3PPM.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Most current 15% chance procs will become 3*1.25 = 3.75 PPM*
Most current 20% chance procs will become 4*1.25 = 5 PPM |
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
... An Apocalypse proc in Neutrino Bolt, for example will almost certainly proc significantly less often than one does today. Proc rates for longer-cycling powers, though, are significantly better.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
AR now has the best Single target and best sustained AoE the only thing it doesn't have is the best burst AoE. It has 3 excellent AoE attacks that it can keep firing one after the other (buckshot, grenade, flamethrower). A crashless nuke on top of that and Ignite again.
Its hard to argue that a set can throw down Full Auto->Buckshot->flamethrower->M30 grenade And repeat at buckshot. Is ridiculously good to begin with now it has the best single target chain as well ? My AR blasters are going to love it, but really fixing the set by making it horrendously over powered ? I would have been plenty happy if they just adjusted the range of some of the cone attacks to be more consistent and adjusted the recharge time of the single target attacks. Edit: This really is a great argument that no matter what you do you should plan on doing the work to adjust individual sets to keep them in line. Right now we have a 50% variance between top and bottom on single target assuming everyone can get the new benefit. If they can't the bottom performers are going to be even worse. |
...I'm sorry, but are you whining?
Whining because they finally made Assault Rifle, the MOST iconic of ranged damage sets, actually good?
Whining because the playstyle of a blaster set that will appeal to every player of first person shooters in the WORLD is now good? It's called, 'Giving the customers what they want.'
If you are concerned about balance, I will repeat: AR damage is heavily resisted, fire damage is not. Fire blasters are still...ridiculously awesome. I mean, come on, their best single target attack chain has an AOE in it!
However, the much-maligned AR/dev blaster, which SHOULD HAVE ALWAYS been awesome, now actually IS.
This is good for the game. Smart dev's.
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AR has always been good. For those in the know its been a top 3 overall set. Now its just overpowered. |
Originally Posted by mauk2
Whining because they finally made Assault Rifle, the MOST iconic of ranged damage sets, actually good?
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Also you are wrong about its damage being heavily resisted because between ignite and flamethrower you can put out an enormous amount of fire damage
Since when has a Frankenstein's horror of projectile weaponry been "iconic" anyway?
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Okay, really?|
Originally Posted by Edana
Since when has a Frankenstein's horror of projectile weaponry been "iconic" anyway?
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(sigh)
Here, check this out:
http://kotaku.com/5857400/call-of-du...rprises-no-one
You know what pretty much every first-person shooter on the planet is full of?
Yeah, AR/Dev blasters running around shooting each other.
(I don't get it either, but 400 million bucks in ONE DAY is hard to argue with.)So, you betcha, it's a smart play for the dev's to sexy-up that portion of their game. Plus, hey, it's fun!
I don't mean to belittle the obvious work and statistical analysis that went into this, but how are all these numbers worth anything at all when no one has actually experienced this change yet? Especially in light of just how edge case the builds discussed here would have to be, not to mention there being no way to actually have the damage numbers here occur in the real game due to things like mez, teammates, spawn placement and moving between them, etc.
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I think he means that AR in this game doesn't act like an assault rifle. It shoots beanbags for crying out loud!
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Okay, really?
(sigh) Here, check this out: http://kotaku.com/5857400/call-of-du...rprises-no-one You know what pretty much every first-person shooter on the planet is full of? Yeah, AR/Dev blasters running around shooting each other. (I don't get it either, but 400 million bucks in ONE DAY is hard to argue with.)So, you betcha, it's a smart play for the dev's to sexy-up that portion of their game. Plus, hey, it's fun! |
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Excellent point.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't mean to belittle the obvious work and statistical analysis that went into this, but how are all these numbers worth anything at all when no one has actually experienced this change yet? Especially in light of just how edge case the builds discussed here would have to be, not to mention there being no way to actually have the damage numbers here occur in the real game due to things like mez, teammates, spawn placement and moving between them, etc.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Indeed. You can get much closer to a proper assault rifle playing a spider with a huntsman build. This also gives you armour, which is far more prolific in FPSs than cloaking devices, non-damaging grenades and deployable AI gun turrets.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I think he means that AR in this game doesn't act like an assault rifle. It shoots beanbags for crying out loud!
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I also contend that generic soldiers in FPSs are not iconic super heroes.
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I do agree that this is an edge case. The single-target DPS of a set used to be interesting but hardly a defining factor.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't mean to belittle the obvious work and statistical analysis that went into this, but how are all these numbers worth anything at all when no one has actually experienced this change yet? Especially in light of just how edge case the builds discussed here would have to be, not to mention there being no way to actually have the damage numbers here occur in the real game due to things like mez, teammates, spawn placement and moving between them, etc.
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The difference now is trials. Challenging single-target burns (especially something like The Really Hard Way) drive the need to rack and stack single-target damage.
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It's worth something because it gives us an idea of the effect that the upcoming changes will have on specific sets and how that affects how they stand compared to each other.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't mean to belittle the obvious work and statistical analysis that went into this, but how are all these numbers worth anything at all when no one has actually experienced this change yet?.
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Hm, that sucks.|
Originally Posted by Edana
From the store bought version on beta Achilles Heel is dropping a tier from 20% to 3PPM.
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| Remember that Neutrino Bolt was standardised when ported to Blasters, an Apocalypse proc at 90% recharge slotting is still ~29%. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Mids does not correctly calculate the DoT effect on a fire blaster's attacks. It assumes that each tick has an 80% chance to deal out damage, when in fact if one tick misses then the DoT is cancelled. The numbers reported in-game are correct; using them the bolded portion above would read:|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
FIRE BLAST
Fire Blast -> Blaze -> Flares- > Blazing Bolt Flares: 63.19 / 1.188 / 56.52 / 3.69 / 2.16s / 6.6 Fire Blast: 92.59 / 1.848 / 50.10 / 5.2 / 4s / 11 Blaze: 188.9 / 1.118 / 168.96 / 10.5 / 10 / 6.6 Blazing Bolt: 217.7 / 1.848 / 115.55 / 14.35 / 12s / 11 Time: 5.932 100% / 345% / 345% + Defiance (44.5%) = 389.5% Damage: 562.38 / 1940.21 / 2190.47 Base DPS: 94.80 / 327.07 / 369.26 Procs: 2x Superior, 11.91 Interface: 20.66 Odd Total: 32.57 Final DPS: 133.32 / 372.91 / 420.14 |
Damage: 524.31 / 1808.87 / 2042.19
I don't have time ATM to recalculate the rest, but it's probably enough of a difference to knock fire down at least a notch in your comparison.
quick take. Note that "needs no help" means compared to other blasters sets, not compared to other AT's which is a different discussion.
Sonic Blast - used for teaming, does the most total damage there where -res helps everyone. Has a clear niche, needs no help
Ice Blast - a control set. Bitter Freeze Ray should get the snip treatment. Make it fast activating with 22% to hit. Ice then has 2 good single target holds for good control and the DPS would go up a lot. That would fix the set and seems obvious.
Energy Blast - the knockback issue. Given that there will 13 blaster primaries with Water, there seems room for a niche knockback set. That said, animation time is an issue.
Electric Blast - the sapping set. Given that there will 13 blaster primaries with Water, there seems room for a niche sapping set. But I think the real fix to this set is to redo VS to be like Haunt. Cast it on a foe and it goes after them until they are down, then goes after others. Makes the damage reliable at least part of the time.
This all assumes 22% To Hit?
Which means these comparisons are only good for /Devices and /Energy?
Or am I missing something?
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
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This. Although the base numbers for solo play might be considered low (sans -res/defiance effect); if you're making these comparisons for team/league play, the attacks become a (force multiplier?) for each teammate beyond the caster. No max target cap for the 'buff'; increasing as the effect stacks.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
quick take. Note that "needs no help" means compared to other blasters sets, not compared to other AT's which is a different discussion.
Sonic Blast - used for teaming, does the most total damage there where -res helps everyone. Has a clear niche, needs no help |
As far as Electric goes... I hope you aren't discounting VS from the ST chain... especially once you get down to just a single target.
Also (for similar reasons to Fireball); Ball Lightning could also be added to the ST chain.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I'm not sure this is the most effective ST DPS attack chain for Archery. Explosive Arrow has better DPAS than Aimed Shot, and can take both Posi's and Explosive Strike procs.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
ARCHERY
Aimed Shot -> Blazing Arrow -> Ranged Shot |
Fistful is only very slightly less DPAS than Aimed Shot, but pulls ahead with procs if you put the purple unique in Blazing instead for PPM. It also recharges quickly, which is one of the reasons (besides ROA of course) that Archery is so good at AoE. It does impose a range limitation of 50' though.
Again, that is how I read it.
Most of us will actually fall between the first and second values during normal play.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF