Thanks for crunching the numbers.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Reading the Energy Blast section was a bitter pill to swallow. I've played an Energy Blaster for roughly the past 8 years and I can't disagree with your conclusions, especially the conclusion that Energy Burst is awful. Even with all the IOs I've crammed into my build (which I did because it's my main and namesake moreso than anything else) it's still subpar due to animation times.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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The fast animation time on the area attacks means that the set's area damage scales better with recharge than others though.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
it's still subpar due to animation times.
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Folks, a few things.
A) I thank UberGuy for linking possible i24 proc numbers; however without the actual product described to us (either through testing or a dev post) I'm reluctant to convert the numbers to show expected performance.
B) All of the debate over little quirks in individual set rotations, such as the animation speed of AOE abilities and the note about Fire Blast's ticks being incorrectly mapped in Mids, are things that I appreciate knowing and will integrate into the database when I have time. I'm currently deployed (USAF) so while I have spare time to work on this, it's competing with PT and other things I could be doing. Please bear with me and I'll get a second release out there.
If you'd like to suggest a rotation for a powerset that is more optimal, feel free! The only constraint is that it must be possible at 300% Recharge (100% base + 200% bonuses, both from slotting and from set bonuses/buffs). I only broke that rule once, with Psychic Blast, but I broke it by like 15% Recharge so I'm not gonna hate myself over it.
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True, but both AoEs in the set generate Knockback, which in practice has the effect of scattering mobs (neither AoE does KB 100% of the time, meaning some get KB'd and some don't), making each subsequent AoE attack less effective. I'm well aware of, and have made extensive use of, various knockback mitigation strategies (using environmental barriers and flying directly above mobs), and you can argue that it's a tradeoff for quick activations, but I feel like it's a handicap, and in practice I've never felt like my Energy Blaster was an AoE death machine so much as I felt like I was trying to keep a large number of marbles from rolling off the top of a table with a convex surface.|
Originally Posted by Garent
The fast animation time on the area attacks means that the set's area damage scales better with recharge than others though.
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When the Summer Event rolls around I will very happily pay any price at the auction house for two Overwhelming Force procs to slot in Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast, just so I can use my AoEs like every other blast can use theirs.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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No worries. I wasn't expecting you to do an AoE damage breakdown as well, but that's great to hear.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
All of the debate over little quirks in individual set rotations, such as the animation speed of AOE abilities and the note about Fire Blast's ticks being incorrectly mapped in Mids, are things that I appreciate knowing and will integrate into the database when I have time.
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Originally Posted by Demobot
When the Summer Event rolls around I will very happily pay any price at the auction house for two Overwhelming Force procs to slot in Energy Torrent and Explosive Blast, just so I can use my AoEs like every other blast can use theirs.
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Originally Posted by Edana
From the store bought version on beta Achilles Heel is dropping a tier from 20% to 3PPM.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hm, that sucks.
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As far as I know the store boughts are still counting against 100% proc chance, so haven't got the adjusted proc rate yet.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I laughed.
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Thee PPM value doesn't have anything to do with the cap. Or rather, the cap applies after your proc rate is calculated off of the PPM value. So you could have a capped proc rate of, say 50%, and still have a "4 PPM" proc.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Is that accounting for the PPM numbers being adjusted upwards when the 90% cap is introduced?
As far as I know the store boughts are still counting against 100% proc chance, so haven't got the adjusted proc rate yet. |
I realize that limits the actual PPM you get, but that's just how the system works. If it helps any, even the current system can fail to achieve its PPM "target" rate with a top-end chance of 100%. If you put a 4 PPM proc in a power with a 20s actual recharge, you aren't getting 4 PPM out of it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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They were given to us in a post by Synapse in the beta forums. However, they were proposed changes, and stated to be rough.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Folks, a few things.
A) I thank UberGuy for linking possible i24 proc numbers; however without the actual product described to us (either through testing or a dev post) I'm reluctant to convert the numbers to show expected performance. |
Testing is not yet an option, since, as far as I know, the changes have not been loaded to any test or beta server.
For example, even if PPM rates go up by 25%, I will be sort of surprised if they don't round the rates to nearby "nice-looking" numbers. I'll be surprised if they actually create 5.625 PPM procs, just because that's a funky-looking number. But who knows.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The chart is to help uber min/maxers. For a build that is not concerned with squeezing every last bit of dps, a chart of this magnitude is not necessary. Just pick a powerset that fits a concept and slot it with whatever. It will kill things.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Interesting stuff.
Not too seem rude or belittle the obvious effort you put in...but...you are comparing the absolute best case in all the sets. max slotting, huge rech, all damage boosts, AND perma to hit. Sure, great for those max situations..but how often are everyone of those conditions going to apply? Not to mention, there is quite a big gap between a lvling up blaster..and the super IO'd to the max end game blaster (as there is with any build). I just think a comparison and lower, average levels would help more. Well..maybe not more, but different people. |
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You're absolutely right, and you're completely wrong.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Kingkillaha
The chart is to help uber min/maxers. For a build that is not concerned with squeezing every last bit of dps, a chart of this magnitude is not necessary. Just pick a powerset that fits a concept and slot it with whatever. It will kill things.
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Right now, people who like Energy as a concept are clearly at a disadvantage in terms of regular play as compared to people who like Fire as a concept. The people who like Energy are through no fault of their own empirically weaker than the Fire proponents. I don't think that should be the case. I think they shouldn't even have to worry about this if they don't want to and still be within a reasonable performance metric (10%-ish) of Fire Blast.
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I don't know if I can agree with that. Energy blasters deal damage slower. But they have gobs of mitigation relative to Fire blasters. Is that enough to balance the two? Perhaps not in very top end play where "mitigation doesn't matter," but now you have wandered out of that territory and into normal play. KB matters. When we get our sustain power, KB will matter even more, because delaying damage allows time for regen/heal ticks to work.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Right now, people who like Energy as a concept are clearly at a disadvantage in terms of regular play as compared to people who like Fire as a concept.
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If you only have to deal 10% less damage, that safer route could be a no-brainer. I think the damage gap has to be higher in order to make it a meaningful advantage for Fire.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The problem is that mitigation stops mattering the minute you team with a buffing defender/corruptor or a controller/dom, or even a tank/tanky brute/tanky scrapper. It isn't an uncommon situation unless you are talking about solo, and even then if you know eventually you won't need the mitigation you are better off toughing it out to get the rewards at the end in most cases.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I don't know if I can agree with that. Energy blasters deal damage slower. But they have gobs of mitigation relative to Fire blasters. Is that enough to balance the two? Perhaps not in very top end play where "mitigation doesn't matter," but now you have wandered out of that territory and into normal play. KB matters. When we get our sustain power, KB will matter even more, because delaying damage allows time for regen/heal ticks to work.
If you only have to deal 10% less damage, that safer route could be a no-brainer. I think the damage gap has to be higher in order to make it a meaningful advantage for Fire. |
Edit: If mitigation only matters when solo or low level then it shouldn't be weighted so heavily on the -damage scale, so 10% less damage than fire might be the right place to aim for.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I think you misunderstood me, or I musunderstood you twice.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Thee PPM value doesn't have anything to do with the cap. Or rather, the cap applies after your proc rate is calculated off of the PPM value. So you could have a capped proc rate of, say 50%, and still have a "4 PPM" proc.
I realize that limits the actual PPM you get, but that's just how the system works. If it helps any, even the current system can fail to achieve its PPM "target" rate with a top-end chance of 100%. If you put a 4 PPM proc in a power with a 20s actual recharge, you aren't getting 4 PPM out of it. |
I should't have mentioned the 90% cap, what I meant was that when they introduce the new forumula for PPM (Using actual recharge instead of base recharge) they will also be upping the PPM numbers, so what is a 3PPM proc now might become a 4PPM proc.
I think the 90% cap is being introduced at the same time, which was why I mentioned that.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Since I don't agree with this:
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I also don't agree with this:|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The problem is that mitigation stops mattering the minute you team with a buffing defender/corruptor or a controller/dom, or even a tank/tanky brute/tanky scrapper.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Edit: If mitigation only matters when solo or low level then it shouldn't be weighted so heavily on the -damage scale, so 10% less damage than fire might be the right place to aim for.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I am not so sure about this one. My energy blaster's KB mitigation may be LESS important, but is still quite useful on a team.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The problem is that mitigation stops mattering the minute you team with a buffing defender/corruptor or a controller/dom, or even a tank/tanky brute/tanky scrapper. It isn't an uncommon situation unless you are talking about solo, and even then if you know eventually you won't need the mitigation you are better off toughing it out to get the rewards at the end in most cases.
Edit: If mitigation only matters when solo or low level then it shouldn't be weighted so heavily on the -damage scale, so 10% less damage than fire might be the right place to aim for. |
For example, on a recent team, I recall using my Knockback against targeted enemies. If a mob peeled off to attack my teams Defender, BAM, said mob is flying across the room. After years of practice watching party health bars, I cannot help but notice when a teammate is in trouble. When that happens, Knockback is that persons best friend. I will not get a thank you for the heals, or even credit for the save, but that's fine because in the end, our team won. That is all that matters.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I'm not opposed to balancing the damage a bit (though I am one of those odd people that considers the knockback on my en/en to be an advantage), but what I'm saying is that the average noob doesn't need a huge chart telling them which sets are the most average. If someone is not slotting for maximum efficiency, then there are a nearly infinite number of slotting options that could be sucsessful. Besides the impossibility of actually providing that info, it wouldn't be necessary as a resource to players.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
You're absolutely right, and you're completely wrong.
Right now, people who like Energy as a concept are clearly at a disadvantage in terms of regular play as compared to people who like Fire as a concept. The people who like Energy are through no fault of their own empirically weaker than the Fire proponents. I don't think that should be the case. I think they shouldn't even have to worry about this if they don't want to and still be within a reasonable performance metric (10%-ish) of Fire Blast. |
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I agree with your general position, but disagree here. There IS a threshold at which death becomes such a statistical improbability that adding more defensive abilities isn't worthwhile, but I don't believe it's as easily reached as you suggest.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The problem is that mitigation stops mattering the minute you team with a buffing defender/corruptor or a controller/dom, or even a tank/tanky brute/tanky scrapper.
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Also, I've seen an energy blaster lead an eight person team using constant knockback to prevent enemy counterattack (before IOs). I make no claim that energy blast is anywhere near where I think it should be, but there's no question that it is defensively the absolute best set under ideal conditions.
That's totally valid feedback. I deal heavily with quantification analysis, which concerns itself with how well we did something. In this case, it's how well we damage things. What you're talking about, using EB to control spawns via knockback, is qualification analysis (aka subjective feedback) and both are necessary.
Well, I think it is not merely subjective. A blaster can only deal damage if it is alive. Some sets help you stay alive better then others. Unless you can one shot kill everything, or have a team who can either kill them or keep them off you, you are going to take some damage.
While mitigation might be harder to quantify, it's not just subjective or speculation. Mitigation provides a tangible, quantifiable benefit -- the ability to continue dealing damage.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Quote:
Gotcha. Agreed.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I think the 90% cap is being introduced at the same time, which was why I mentioned that.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I am willing to concede that mitigation matters a bit more than I suggested, but I still think the situations where it matters are rarer than the situations where more damage is being helpful, to the point that soft or hard to leverage mitigation is often over valued. Controllers/dominators have an awful lot more mitigation than blasters and don't do all that much less damage despite that.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I am not so sure about this one. My energy blaster's KB mitigation may be LESS important, but is still quite useful on a team.
For example, on a recent team, I recall using my Knockback against targeted enemies. If a mob peeled off to attack my teams Defender, BAM, said mob is flying across the room. After years of practice watching party health bars, I cannot help but notice when a teammate is in trouble. When that happens, Knockback is that persons best friend. I will not get a thank you for the heals, or even credit for the save, but that's fine because in the end, our team won. That is all that matters. |
I honestly cannot recall a time when I thought 'I wish we had more mitigation', but I have thought 'We need more damage' an awful lot. I also always aim for end game, and would happily see sets get a little extra help through mitigation in the mid game to prevent them lagging behind in the more damage focussed end game.
Then there are inspirations, where a small purple is very good mitigation, so it is easy for a +damage set to catch the +mitigation set up, but a small red doesn't do much to help a +mitigation set catch a +damage set.
Actually a 'change secondary effect' toggle might be good, where all sets have a +mitigation effect and a +damage effect so you can pick and choose which you need/prefer. The way the damage is mitigated would still give large differences in the sets, but the damage gap wouldn't be so wide.
Edit: This isn't restricted to just blasters either, I think secondary effects are often very over-valued by the devs.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Which means these comparisons are only good for /Devices and /Energy?
Or am I missing something?
Or team with a VEAT and let them get you there all by themselves.
A team of 7 AR/* Blasters lead by a Huntsman running dual tactics?