I very rarely on teams think we need more damage. I frequently think we need more mitigation. Now I team 1-45 and stop. I don't do incarnate content which is very different once you add Judgement.
Everyone does damage. Not everyone does much mitigation. Especially in teams where many players focus on just doing one thing and do not play to their character's full capacity.
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If you just take the bit you quoted then even I disgree with it, but it makes more sense in the context of my last few posts.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
I entirely disagree with this statement.
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Mitigation of course matters, or you will die too fast. But once you are on a team with even 1 survivability buffing defender (Such as a bubbler), or a good controller then your self brought mitigation such as KB, -dam, -rech etc matter a lot less than they do solo (And some mitigation effects such as -recovery, -end hardly even matter in the first place, but still seem to cause attacks to do less damage).
In those situations it is usually better to just cause more damage.
There isn't such a thing as too much damage really, but there is a thing as too much mitigation. And I think too much mitigation is a level that can easily be reached on teams.
The point of saying that though, was that I believe the devs are over-valuing the secondary effects on many blaster powersets and giving them too much of a damage penalty in return.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Hey, version 2 of this is almost done. Given the definition war that went on in this thread, and the variance in output with modified proc IO output, that will significantly change how these sets perform... I did nut up and end up going with Uberman's numbers.
I'll probably create a version 1.1 of these numbers.
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You might be surprised at how little this actually has happened on purpose.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
The point of saying that though, was that I believe the devs are over-valuing the secondary effects on many blaster powersets and giving them too much of a damage penalty in return.
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For example, you said, "-recovery, -end hardly even matter in the first place, but still seem to cause attacks to do less damage", but Electric blast has no attacks that are weaker than the damage formula dictates (unless you count Tesla Cage, but many mez powers do little to no damage). Energy Blast damage is not lowered because it has KB. Ice has massive mitigation but for awhile it had better potential single target DPA than any other blast set (Fire blast got buffed around Issue 7 in order to improve its damage and put Ice in second place, additional changes/additions have dropped it further).
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Hey, version 2 of this is almost done.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I haven't really paid attention to the development of many sets, but it was Dual Pistols where I noticed it and got really annoyed. Swap Ammo is what proves to me that secondary effects are over-valued, I have never seen anyone who is performance oriented suggest anything other than incendiary ammo. And when I looked at the secondary effects of the other ammos (Been a while so I can't remember exactly what is what) I felt they could be doubled and still not be that great compared to how useful the +dam is.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You might be surprised at how little this actually has happened on purpose.
For example, you said, "-recovery, -end hardly even matter in the first place, but still seem to cause attacks to do less damage", but Electric blast has no attacks that are weaker than the damage formula dictates (unless you count Tesla Cage, but many mez powers do little to no damage). Energy Blast damage is not lowered because it has KB. Ice has massive mitigation but for awhile it had better potential single target DPA than any other blast set (Fire blast got buffed around Issue 7 in order to improve its damage and put Ice in second place, additional changes/additions have dropped it further). |
I am happy to be wrong here though, in fact I would prefer to be wrong
Edit: But don't get me started on that damage formula that conveniently misses out one of the most important parts ...
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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He he. Dual Pistols also has no powers that don't obey the damage formula. They can just choose to get more damage with Incendiary. This is a case, to me, where the secondary effects just aren't strong enough to make up for the fact that I can get extra damage (the base damage is not too weak for the secondary effect, the added damage is just too good to pass up relative to the weaker secondary effects of the other ammos).|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Edit: But don't get me started on that damage formula that conveniently misses out one of the most important parts ...
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I love slows. But when I used Cryo rounds it was nothing like when I play my Ice blaster (or defender). Not even close. One can say it shouldn't be as good as Ice, because Ice can't flip a switch and start doing extra damage and I agree. But if flipping to Cryo has such a small benefit, then I'll just never use it (it is possible there is not a good balance point here, because the Ice blast slows may be near the minimum threshold for usable effect).
I am also pretty sure that no one, especially the devs, consider the lack of animation time as part of the formula convenient.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Sorry to be, perpetually, picking on you, Princess Darkstar. | once you are on a team with even 1 survivability buffing defender (Such as a bubbler) |
But picking the best friend a Blaster can have* may not exactly be the typical case. I have seven and a half years of Force Field defender experience; trust me on this one.
* If the FF defender puts the little bubbles on you and dies IMMEDIATELY they've upped your survivability by at least a factor of two. If they're doing their job they've upped your survivability by a factor of 10, pretty much no matter what else happens. FF defenders are exceptions to the "Blasters will find a way to die" rule.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Hey, just stopping in to say that 1.1 is almost done and should be posted tomorrow. I spent some time crunching Water Blast numbers so that'll be integrated as well. I'm still going to omit Dual Pistols until I see implemented changes on the beta server that outline where Synapse wants to go, because he's definitely working the issue. The other sets are only said to be being worked on "eventually", so there's no guarantee that they'll make it in.
Patch notes will include the new PPM proc setup (most of the time, I'll assume aggressive recharge slotting, as usual), changing how I'm calculating the Fire DOT effect, and little things such as rotation suggestions in here, such as the Archery and Fire Blast suggestions.
So I had a question about the snipes: are you going to be required to be planted on the ground in order to use the FastSnipe even though you are bypassing the interrupt time by being able to FastSnipe?
I tend to bounce around a lot on my blasters, lining up cones and trying to take out enemies on the perimeter who are focused on squishies, and I'd love to be able to FastSnipe as I'm jumping around.
@Ethical Inquiry
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I can leap around with my stalker and the non-interruptible version of Assassin Strike, so your answer is yes.
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Originally Posted by Pareto
I tend to bounce around a lot on my blasters, lining up cones and trying to take out enemies on the perimeter who are focused on squishies, and I'd love to be able to FastSnipe as I'm jumping around.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I haven't been following this too closely but I've gathered the general idea is that +tohit is needed to take advantage of the snipe changes. Would running tactics do the trick?
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Tactics on a Blaster would get you to about 11.3% if three-slotted with 50+5 Enhancements. Kismet on top of that would get you to 17.3%. So in the case of Blasters, no, you can't get there by yourself.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I haven't been following this too closely but I've gathered the general idea is that +tohit is needed to take advantage of the snipe changes. Would running tactics do the trick?
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Some of the contention about this method comes from the fact that Defenders and Corruptors *can* get there by themselves, by stacking their better Tactics mod on top of Kismet. Some of the Buff / Debuff primaries can get there by themselves.
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On a blaster, no. On a defender, with a Kismet, yes.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I haven't been following this too closely but I've gathered the general idea is that +tohit is needed to take advantage of the snipe changes. Would running tactics do the trick?
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There is only one blaster secondary that can give you this easily and reliably, and that's devices. Dark and energy can get close if you can handle the clickiness required.
Defenders and corruptors can perma-fast snipe. Some scrappers can, as well, is you assume they have a steady supply of bad guys to feed off of.
Also, teaming. There are many buffs, and pretty much any two tactics stacked can get you there, if you toss a Kismet in.
I'm getting the feeling that the snipes fix was only peripherally meant to improve blasters, and only situationally to be permanent. This is probably quite deliberate.
The more important component of 'fixing blasters' is the survivability buff. We'll hafta see how that works out.
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Ah, my main Blaster runs tactics 6 slotted w/ Gaussian's. That's kind of a bummer, but I have almost 100% uptime between aim and concentration anyways. Maybe some new ATO set for Blasters will give a global tohit bonus or a unique will be similar to Kismet, that'd be neat to see.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Tactics on a Blaster would get you to about 11.3% if three-slotted with 50+5 Enhancements. Kismet on top of that would get you to 17.3%. So in the case of Blasters, no, you can't get there by yourself.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
The more important component of 'fixing blasters' is the survivability buff. We'll hafta see how that works out. |
The only thing that worries me about this is a possible Drain Psyche nerf. I'm personally a fan of the current risk/reward balance and the investment required in order to get it perma/take full advantage of it. I do agree that the other secondaries need to be buffed to have the potential to perform as well as /Mental though, I mentioned that forever ago and I'm glad the Dev's seem to be moving in that direction. I just hope /ment doesn't suffer because of it.
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I'm curious, what are the consequences in the circumstances you suggest (you've got an Earth/FF controller running maneuvers and an Emp/Dark defender buffing and controlling the foes) for not doing 'enough damage'?
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
If you just take the bit you quoted then even I disgree with it, but it makes more sense in the context of my last few posts.
Mitigation of course matters, or you will die too fast. But once you are on a team with even 1 survivability buffing defender (Such as a bubbler), or a good controller then your self brought mitigation such as KB, -dam, -rech etc matter a lot less than they do solo (And some mitigation effects such as -recovery, -end hardly even matter in the first place, but still seem to cause attacks to do less damage). In those situations it is usually better to just cause more damage. There isn't such a thing as too much damage really, but there is a thing as too much mitigation. And I think too much mitigation is a level that can easily be reached on teams. The point of saying that though, was that I believe the devs are over-valuing the secondary effects on many blaster powersets and giving them too much of a damage penalty in return. |
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Nobody likes slow teaming. The consequence is that it takes more actual time invested to accomplish anything. At the very high end (Tyrant), it also means that the target might regenerate faster than its being damaged.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm curious, what are the consequences in the circumstances you suggest (you've got an Earth/FF controller running maneuvers and an Emp/Dark defender buffing and controlling the foes) for not doing 'enough damage'?
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Slow teaming but safe teaming. I don't see anything wrong with that. On the low end, it hardly matters if you're not killing at a breakneck speed so long as you have the tools to eventually defeat the foe and within a specified performance margin.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Nobody likes slow teaming. The consequence is that it takes more actual time invested to accomplish anything. At the very high end (Tyrant), it also means that the target might regenerate faster than its being damaged.
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On the high end, that doesn't even matter. You've got interface, you've got judgement, you've got lore and hybrid. That scenario isn't and shouldn't even be on this radar.
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Not really following the conversation, but replying to this post.. One of the cool things about this game is that you don't have to sacrifice safety for damage. I've duoed low level SF's (at a quick pace that could rival full teams) with my Warshade and a Rad, clearly no Incarnates. I don't really see the point in having something like Force Field if efficiency or stability is your concern- Damage dealers are generally able to take care of themselves, with the exception being Blasters before lvl 50, and Blasters after lvl 50 who can't afford to be survivable.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Slow teaming but safe teaming. I don't see anything wrong with that. On the low end, it hardly matters if you're not killing at a breakneck speed so long as you have the tools to eventually defeat the foe and within a specified performance margin.
On the high end, that doesn't even matter. You've got interface, you've got judgement, you've got lore and hybrid. That scenario isn't and shouldn't even be on this radar. |
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And the point of the discussion I was commenting on didn't say anything about 'sacrificing' safety for damage. This was about tools that provide safety being intrinsically less useful once you reach a certain threshold. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
One of the cool things about this game is that you don't have to sacrifice safety for damage.
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That is, adding another layer of protection to that combo, like a Sonic Resonance or Pain Domination or using debuffs like -dmg or -end.
So the extra secondary effects, in those circumstances, are less needed and therefore are not worth as much as the alternative of more damage...or by another angle, the secondary effects' cost is too high for the lowered performance in those circumstances.
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| I've duoed low level SF's (at a quick pace that could rival full teams) with my Warshade and a Rad, clearly no Incarnates. I don't really see the point in having something like Force Field if efficiency or stability is your concern- Damage dealers are generally able to take care of themselves, with the exception being Blasters before lvl 50, and Blasters after lvl 50 who can't afford to be survivable. |
If anything, I don't feel the secondary effects are undervalued and therefore the powers should deal more damage. I feel the secondary effects are undervalued so should *do* *more*.
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I agree that buff sets can be made obsolete, and I feel like they're completely obsolete on a team full of well built characters. Support AT's provide fantastic debuffs though- If every set was as good as Rad and Cold, there'd be no cause for complaint imo. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And the point of the discussion I was commenting on didn't say anything about 'sacrificing' safety for damage. This was about tools that provide safety being intrinsically less useful once you reach a certain threshold.
That is, adding another layer of protection to that combo, like a Sonic Resonance or Pain Domination or using debuffs like -dmg or -end. So the extra secondary effects, in those circumstances, are less needed and therefore are not worth as much as the alternative of more damage...or by another angle, the secondary effects' cost is too high for the lowered performance in those circumstances. |
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I can see what you're saying but I don't think it's related to what I'm commenting on. It's that -ToHit effects or -dmg or drains are negatively affected in the damage they do by the effects they provide. I don't believe that is the case, and weather buffing up the base damage is needed or not is reliant on the power you're talking about. If anything, I don't feel the secondary effects are undervalued and therefore the powers should deal more damage. I feel the secondary effects are undervalued so should *do* *more*. |
Eh, sets like Sonic Blast on a Defender or Fire Blast on a Corruptor are beastly because of the secondary effects (and inherent in the latter.) I do agree that the secondary effects in some blast sets aren't that good though.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The only thing that worries me about this is a possible Drain Psyche nerf. I'm personally a fan of the current risk/reward balance and the investment required in order to get it perma/take full advantage of it. I do agree that the other secondaries need to be buffed to have the potential to perform as well as /Mental though, I mentioned that forever ago and I'm glad the Dev's seem to be moving in that direction. I just hope /ment doesn't suffer because of it.
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It really kills me to see people call drain psyche overpowered, especially devs. Then again it also really kills me to see things like blaster improvements tied to +to hit.
Fully slotted for heal, Drain psyche provides 7.34 hp/sec/target hit. 7.34 hp/sec mitigation for every target aggroed. In order to get that you have to place yourself in a position where every attack they have can hit you. If you don't have 75% or better mitigation to the attacks minions are doing you are deep in the hole.
Against strong hard targets it's nothing the primary benefit being -regen.
What makes drain psyche look O.P. is that it can be backed by a factor 17-18 reduction in incoming damage. Of course anything that you have that kind of damage reduction for is going to look over powered drain psyche or no. The second you are away from your safe zone of damage type/position you crumple like wet cardboard.
As Arbiter Hawk said, and as you seem to be grudgingly acknowledging even as you attempt to skirt around it, the overpowered part of drain psyche is the gigantic -regen. Of course it doesn't hurt that the buff portion of the power is practically tailor made for farming, either.
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The duration is so short that it doesn't make a huge impact IMO without very good global recharge, at least not enough to be any more OP than something like Rage is in its own right.. Shrug. It's also worth noting that it's very hard to build for good uptime on Drain Psyche and good defense/resistance without investing heavily into your build, and it's hard to take full advantage of DP since in and of itself it's not a great survivability tool. imo, that heavy an investment in any build should lead to at least somewhat OP results.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
As Arbiter Hawk said, and as you seem to be grudgingly acknowledging even as you attempt to skirt around it, the overpowered part of drain psyche is the gigantic -regen. Of course it doesn't hurt that the buff portion of the power is practically tailor made for farming, either.
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Farm on a blaster ? Why ? You are going to spend 10 billion + for a farmer that does considerably worse than a brute with a billion inf build.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
As Arbiter Hawk said, and as you seem to be grudgingly acknowledging even as you attempt to skirt around it, the overpowered part of drain psyche is the gigantic -regen. Of course it doesn't hurt that the buff portion of the power is practically tailor made for farming, either.
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If they consider the -regen overpowered they need to take a look at some of their basic assumptions. The enemies where its important make up less than 1% of the game and it's very dangerous for blasters to try and use it against them. Yes it does allow blasters to hunt GMs and AVs, but that is something every other AT gets to do, including tanks. If anyone is concerned about debuff on a team they are still going to ask for a defender/corruptor over the blaster with drain psyche.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.