Breakdown of Blaster i24 Performance
I agree with THB a little bit, even though I think he always goes about things in the worst possible way. I don't agree that there is a right and wrong way to build, and if there is, 99.9% of my own builds are not the right way. I still make them work. There are ways to get better results out of powersets, and ways that miss opportunities. Then a whole range of levels of success in between.
That being said, the way that DP scales from "wrong" to "right" does indicate that it is somewhat broken. I only have 1 /mm blaster at a low level, so I will have to use my doms as examples. I think the general idea still applies. I have a plant/psy/fire dom that just owns the game. No purples/pvp IOs, and still walks through +4x8 missions almost like they are nothing. Ive been on a pug where someone asked the tank where to go next and he replied "I dunno, I'm just following [my dom]." The combo is just ridiculous and OP. Because of this I rolled an elec/psy/ice dom, thinking that DP would carry my build again. It did not. Turns out seeds of confusion+carrion creepers+drain psyche=tankinator, but drain psyche without an extremely good distraction (or in THBs case softcapped defense) is just meh. I built both toons with similar levels of investment, and I assume I play them both with the same level of skill. Ive been thinking about this since the blaster changes were announced, and Im starting to think I wouldn't mind seeing the top of DP brought down a little in order to bring the bottom up. On SOs drain psyche is not that impressive, on a moderate build it is okay, and in certain fringe cases or extreme investments it is a god mode. So when THB says there is a "right way" to build with DP he is somewhat right, though that also shows that the power is in fact broken. There should be a smoother range of results with investment. |
I know I come across as pretty harsh most of the time. I've really been making an effort to soften my words a bit, so I'm sorry if it's not showing.
The answer is it is a poor question.
This isn't directed at you, its directed at the practice of using these type of numbers to make a comparison. Just as an example would anyone think a defenseless sonic/energy is 70 times less survivable than a single position softcap fire/ment ? |
But whether its a poor question depends on the context the information is going to be used for. To judge two things in isolation that its justified to judge in isolation, its a fair question. For example, when we judge defensive secondaries for reasonable balance or strength, its fair to discount any primary mitigation or synergy because we assume every secondary can be legitimately paired with any primary. Primaries can't help secondaries when judging if a secondary is reasonable compared to peer powersets. But it is dangerous to judge an entire archetype's survivability based solely on its defensive secondary, because the archetype as a whole is protected by more than that.
Comparing one defensive power against another in a different set is usually an invalid comparison because there's no reason why any one power must have the same strength as any other: we don't get to choose powers at random: they come in sets, and its the sets that have to be judged as a whole. However, that doesn't mean we can't consider special cases that are just wildly egregious.
The context of Fulmens question was how much benefit should players get for making good decisions, relative to the level of effort necessary to formulate those decisions. So its valid for him to ask what's the return on investment between someone that doesn't build for defense and only has the regen from inherent fitness vs someone that builds for the soft cap and can maximize drain psyche. You can take up the subject with Fulmens as to how to judge the relative level of effort between the two cases, but its fair to ask what the return is, and in this case its something that a reasonable calculation estimates is a 70x survivability increase.
I agree that number has a significant margin for error, and I assume people realize that number is not a precise calculation for various reasons having to do with how that survivability strength is really valued and leveraged. However, saying its a "crapton" would not be as useful as saying its about 70x, and leaving it to others to decide to what degree to value that estimation. Everyone knows what I mean when I say "about 70x" and given that knowledge, they can decide for themselves how to translate that into their own estimation of the actual gain.
Honestly, in many ways is a lot more than 70x. Because a soft-capped blaster will avoid more debuffs and more mez. They will not only take less damage but they will take less debuffs that would amplify damage. They would be less impaired offensively on average.
They would be more brittle, in the sense of being more vulnerable to defense debuffs and tohit buffs, and the odd mez that actually lands, but its also true they would be more brittle because there would actually be something to break in the first place. A blaster with no protection can't have its defenses fail.
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My rough estimate calculation goes like this:
Blaster with slotted health ~ 200% regen (178% with 1.95 slotting and no other bonuses). DP saturates at about +1500% regen (+1463 with 1.95 slotting). All other things being equal, the DP saturated blaster can take 8.5x more damage over time (1700/200). On top of that, the soft capped blaster is getting hit 8 times less often than the blaster with only 10% defense (50-10 / 50 - 45). That means the soft-capped DP saturated blaster can sustain about 68 times more damage than the one with slotted health and about 10% defense, or about 70x. |
my range softcapped ar/dev can happily breeze through about anything in the game at +0/x6. He can go higher on both fairly easily as long as I cherry pick my opponents. Before I softcapped him he wouldn't have dreamed of attempting X6 anything, because he'd have been mezz'ed and face-planted by the first spawn he came across.
And he had nothing in the way of extra regen, certainly nothing like Drain Psyche. If he did....wowzers.
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It's a bit of a tricky question, calculating how much more survivable +Regen makes you.
For example if I said you will be taking 10,000 points of damage over a peroid of one minute, but have a regen of 10,000 points of damage over the same period, a damage model might assume I had taken zero damage. After all, I'm losing exactly as many HP as I get back.
But let's change the statement. Instead of taking 10,000 points of damage over a period of one minute, you will be taking 0 damage for the first thirty seconds, 3,000 damage at the 30 second mark, and the remaining 7,000 damage over the remaining period.
What makes Regen tricky is that if you ever hit either max or min HP, it basically stops doing anything extra. The benefit is in returning to Max HP (or at least toward it), not in sitting there.
In the example above, what happens after the 30 second mark is irrelevant, because you are dead. Regen provided no benefit at all for the first thirty seconds of the fight, because you were already capped; it didn't stack its benefits up in preparation for a big HP loss. Because of this, it provided no benefit at the thirty second mark, and after that you are dead. It certainly can add a lot of survivability, but it can also essentially add zero depending on how the damage arrives.
Thanks for pointing out the calculation errors.
Thinking defense was a 95% reduction vice 90% is a clear error in both math and mindset.
I'm sticking to my guns regarding base Health versus a fully slotted Drain Psyche. That sort of thing happens in games because folks use Health to carry things like Miracle +Recovery IO's.
The comparative context is perfectly valid because the first Blaster takes 100 DPS in a lot of situations - two +1/0 spawns can generate and sustain that kind of damage, for instance, assuming you've got a LT in there. Ergo losing 6.25% of your life as a Blaster per second happens quite often.
Regen as an effect is just more amazing if you have less incoming damage and therefore the comparison becomes wider if you're taking less damage than that. I would agree completely with the 70x number if you're using as the comparative the value needed to damage the first Blaster at all, which incidently is about 9.78 DPS. It'd take well over 800 damage to damage the second guy.
I think we'll quibble about the numbers because I get there in a different way - you build the numbers abstractly and I try to figure out the absolute damage required to do 1 damage to the build - but I think we can both agree that the endstate numbers are absurd.
One thing we haven't talked about is that Blaster AOE will rapidly reduce the incoming damage number in a large spawn. Blasters do good AOE typically, Mental Manipulation itself is pretty good at it, so the spawn with the numbers necessary to actually generate damage against the DP blaster will die rapidly, whereas the Health guy will evaporate before he can take most of 'em out.
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong.
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I've done that quite often. You really learn to play when you don't always hide behind elite builds.
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"MY perspective is that no two people playing the same AT, played by people who have avoided the obvious pitfalls, should be more than, say, a factor of 5 apart in performance.
YOUR perspective, and maybe you don't realize this, is that a moderately skilled player with a sufficiently expensive build and the right powersets should be 20 times tougher than someone who did not make that choice. Maybe more- Arcanaville, where is the line of immortality for a S/L capped fully-Drain Psyche'd Blaster? Where is it for a blaster with 10% Defense and slotted health?"
I don't think it's fair to say that the high end performance gap is too large between a Blaster like the one I play and one that is not maximized for high end play whatsoever- Once again, it's not a matter of anyone doing it wrong, it's a matter of bringing a bicycle on a drag race. There's nothing wrong with bikes, but they have their place, and a drag race isn't it. I was responding contextually because I felt the comparison was unjustified. I've also pointed out within this thread that 'min/max' is not an exclusive club- Anyone can reach the high end of performance we've been alluding to throughout this discussion. All it takes is a significant investment, both time and inf. wise, into a character. If you choose not to make that investment where others have, I don't think it's reasonable to get results in the same ballpark. See my analogy in my previous post.
Before any of this gets misconstrued, I want to point out that I don't think that maximizing a build at all times should be required, or anything close to it. I think the content in its present state does a good job of being easy to complete for any budget and skill level on the standard difficulty setting of +0x1, but high end builds can complete the same content on +4x8. This, to me, is logical. What isn't logical is when we start gauging the performance gaps between the two build approaches, because the former should not be able to survive what the latter can. If it could, there would be no point in high end builds existing at all.
I never said anyone was stupid or wrong for playing the game or not playing the game a certain way.
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So someone else must have typed this:
See, I don't think that's fair, because those people with 10% defense on their Blasters.. Or anyone playing ANY character with 10% global defense, is an unintelligent or uninformed player. They should be linked to ParagonWiki, the forums, and Mids. They should be instructed in order to help them understand how to build characters correctly. That gap is there because of a gap in intelligent building. Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong. |
"Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong" I think that speaks for itself.
Dude, you can say whatever you like, and defend what you said all you like. But don't act like you never said it when someone calls you on it.
I can be just as harsh as anyone else on these forums, but when I say something I stand by it and defend it if need be. I've never tried to say that I never said something, especially when what I said was less than 2 pages prior to my denial.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Really? You never said that?
So someone else must have typed this: When you say someone is unintelligent, you are politely saying they are stupid. "Those who build properly should never be ostracized because other people did it wrong" I think that speaks for itself. Dude, you can say whatever you like, and defend what you said all you like. But don't act like you never said it when someone calls you on it. I can be just as harsh as anyone else on these forums, but when I say something I stand by it and defend it if need be. I've never tried to say that I never said something, especially when what I said was less than 2 pages prior to my denial. |
I didn't mean it absolutely, I meant it in a very specific case. It's all about intent- There is no right or wrong intent, so I wasn't making the statement as absolutely as you're perceiving it, I meant that in the context of high end performance there is a right and wrong approach. It's not my opinion that someone with no aspirations to say, solo GM's and 54 spawns is playing the game incorrectly- They're just playing it differently. 10% defense to everything is a perfectly viable build alternative in some cases, but the viability of that approach scales with ambition. I was responding to something that was presuming to compare max performance builds to casual builds- Logic would dictate that the only reason to compare two things is if we assume that they're intended for the same purpose. In that case, we have assumed intent, that intent being performing to the highest standard and the differences in the quality of the results between the two approaches. In that case, yes, there is a starkly intelligent and unintelligent approach. That doesn't mean that I think people who make casual builds are by default unintelligent players.
A bit of anecdotal support:
my range softcapped ar/dev can happily breeze through about anything in the game at +0/x6. He can go higher on both fairly easily as long as I cherry pick my opponents. Before I softcapped him he wouldn't have dreamed of attempting X6 anything, because he'd have been mezz'ed and face-planted by the first spawn he came across. And he had nothing in the way of extra regen, certainly nothing like Drain Psyche. If he did....wowzers. |
It's a perfect example of why you can't always make direct comparisons of survivability.
Ideally an AR/DEV can completely avoid melee with a spawn, just by dropping caltrops and a couple of saftey mines, and using web grenade as needed. Aggroing the spawn with drain psyche is going to get you killed nearly instantly.
Whatever the numbers are on the new super spy power, they are going to be better for you than drain psyche because they won't depend on you aggroing targets to get the benefit.
DS blasters who build for defense don't have any issues surviving the 1.3 seconds of aggro they need to get the full benefit and, typically, they get the ability off before mobs realize that a Blaster is about.
I think we'll quibble about the numbers because I get there in a different way - you build the numbers abstractly and I try to figure out the absolute damage required to do 1 damage to the build - but I think we can both agree that the endstate numbers are absurd.
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Its definitely a *constraint* on survivability. If your build is calculated to be able to sustain 421.789 dps, then *averaged across your in-combat play time* you won't exceed that. You can't because if you do you'll eventually die, where "eventually" is measured by the size of your health bar, and for most situations is relatively fast.
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That quote is really out of context if you look at what I was responding to.
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And I say this as someone who's authored more abrasive, confrontational statements than you have posts. =P
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I wouldn't say the assumptions behind maximum average sustainable damage are abstract. As I've mentioned previously, and its in my old timey scrapper comparison posts linked in my sig so this goes way back, I believe most people tend to gravitate towards a level of difficulty that is somewhat near the maximum they can sustain without dying, but not much higher than that (because then by definition they would die often). How close people get to the line is somewhat variable, but I don't think its common for people to make billion inf builds and then solo them at +0x1, nor do I think its common for people to take builds with low survivability and then vaporize themselves in +4x8 over and over again either. If a build *can* sustain 174.26 dps of damage on average, its likely that, with some small modification factors, the content they face will tend to either generate that level of damage or cover a range of damage where that value exists at the upper end of the scale.
Its definitely a *constraint* on survivability. If your build is calculated to be able to sustain 421.789 dps, then *averaged across your in-combat play time* you won't exceed that. You can't because if you do you'll eventually die, where "eventually" is measured by the size of your health bar, and for most situations is relatively fast. |
My apologies if I came off in an imprecise manner.
Sure, sure, that all makes perfect sense. I wasn't trying to say "Arcanaville builds around things that aren't real"; if anything, I do that when I base comparatives off of theoretical incoming damage numbers. My point is simply that we approached the quantification analysis from two different directions - you appear to have asked the question, "What can the first blaster reasonably sustain regularly in content, and how does that same level of performance compare to the second guy?", and did your comparative from that point. I asked, "How will each model react to certain levels of pressure?", which is a far more abstract question, and went from there.
My apologies if I came off in an imprecise manner. |
There are two basic question one can ask when it comes to survivability. The first is "how much can I survive?" The second question is "how long can I tank this?" The first question is generally much more important to powerset balance, because it sets the constraints on how far a player can push a set while leveling or playing through content. The latter question is a special case question generally useful when talking about very specific circumstances, and when avoiding death is not assumed. You might be trying to determine the average lifetime of something trying to tank a giant monster, or Lord Recluse in the LRSF, or something like that. You may even be looking at alpha strike burst survivability of a tanker that you presume will eventually get healed before the next spawn.
The danger of the second question is that you can't pick damage levels arbitrarily. For any two powersets in which A has more health recovery and B has more def/res mitigation, its *always* possible to pick a level of damage such that A looks better than B, and another where B looks better than A, even in ridiculously extreme situations. For example, even where A has 1000% regeneration and B has only 10% defense in the case where incoming damage is 4.0%/sec or lower A will look better than B, and in the case where incoming damage is 19%/sec or higher B will look better than A. I think most people would say that 1000% regen is generally better than 10% defense, and the reason why is because almost no one plays at difficulty levels where incoming damage is 19%/sec or higher, and the few that do have a lot more than 10% defense.
I think the best questions to ask in these situations tend to be connected to real in-game situations. Who best survives +0x1? Who best tanks +0x6? Who has better survival numbers at +3x1? That sort of thing. This particular approach doesn't have to be abstract, and in fact works better when its not abstract.
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I question how much people play on the edge. I would bet that the majority of players do not alter their difficulty settings and play at +0/x1. They can survive that easily, but they don't know or don't bother changing the difficulty.
I base this on teaming and seeing people's difficulty settings when you look at available missions.
I think the best questions to ask in these situations tend to be connected to real in-game situations. Who best survives +0x1? Who best tanks +0x6? Who has better survival numbers at +3x1? That sort of thing. This particular approach doesn't have to be abstract, and in fact works better when its not abstract.
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I question how much people play on the edge. I would bet that the majority of players do not alter their difficulty settings and play at +0/x1. They can survive that easily, but they don't know or don't bother changing the difficulty.
I base this on teaming and seeing people's difficulty settings when you look at available missions. |
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What exactly are you looking to compare, and what are you looking to compare it to? Are you wanting fully fleshed out builds, or SO's/low investment only? If you're looking to compare Blaster survivability to melee AT's or Mental Blaster survivability to non-mental Blaster survivability on these settings you mentioned, I can provide you with an extensively tested and abused /Mental Blaster build for your calculations. I don't expect any build poachers to stumble this deep into a thread like this.
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I've just finished my first pass on my survival spreadsheet to allow me to add Bio Armor: I'm just waiting for Synapse's latest changes to hit beta. I can plug in your Mental numbers as a benchmark column if I have a build for them.
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I was tossing out examples, not asking questions myself. For the highest levels of build, none of those would obviously be capable of illustrating any survival difference because they would all be easily survivable by any high end build, which would make it impossible to judge who was doing so "better." You'd probably have to look much higher: +3x5 to +4x8.
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I've just finished my first pass on my survival spreadsheet to allow me to add Bio Armor: I'm just waiting for Synapse's latest changes to hit beta. I can plug in your Mental numbers as a benchmark column if I have a build for them. |
Edit: There is a problem with this export, everything is set to be +something- I forget exactly what. Obviously the ATO set can't actually be buffed like that, I just did it quickly to check my defense totals (I believe Drain Psyche's recharge is boosted too.) I only used the boosters there to make up the last ~half a percent in game, so feel free to set to even level for more accurate totals and keep the defense in mind.
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Hmm. Many of the spawns standing around overworld maps are bigger than +0x1 so I don't think it's true most players don't consider it. I think most players probably consider an amalgamation of solo instances, overworld fights, and what it "feels" like on a team. Even if you just mainly run past enemies outdoors you're still likely to notice if you don't stand a chance against them.
That's assuming you take the numbers of the build as-is, not factoring in reaching the soft cap with luck inspirations. Lucks would improve your build's numbers substantially, but also everyone else's as well.
If you want more absolute numbers, the spreadsheet says the sustainable smash/lethal damage level of the soft-capped version of the build is about 2200 dps, or about 200 times the damage potential of a level 50 minion (plus or minus, critters have variable offensive output). That sounds like a lot, but its actually a bit less than the average damage of a +4x8 spawn. Which implies that while you might be able to take one out, you couldn't tank one for very long if you didn't open fire on them offensively, even with soft-capped defenses and that level of regeneration.
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The question was: "where is the line of immortality for a S/L capped fully-Drain Psyche'd Blaster? Where is it for a blaster with 10% Defense and slotted health?" If you have a problem with the question, you should take it up with the person asking the question.
The answer is it is a poor question.
This isn't directed at you, its directed at the practice of using these type of numbers to make a comparison. Just as an example would anyone think a defenseless sonic/energy is 70 times less survivable than a single position softcap fire/ment ?