Proposed Snipe Changes - Please no "Magic Number" for useful snipes


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

I get what they're trying to do with making snipes useful again, something similar to the way they made over Assasin's Strike. But I really, *really* don't like making it hinge on a specific value of a specific statistic (22% +hit) that can be fairly readily perma'd, because it gives a noticeable, binary advantage to min-maxers, and it encourages weird build choices that otherwise make no sense.

It would hardly be the first thing in the game that people warp their builds to achieve, but it's the only one I'm aware of with an all-or-nothing benefit. Perma-dom is awesome, but 95% dom is still pretty good. 45% defense is great, but 44% is not bad. Here, +22.03% hit is a game changer, +21.87% hit is build fail. And people are talking about stacking four +hit enhancements in a power so they can gain the necessary last tenth of a percent to get access to fast, massive DPA snipes.

If the devs want Build-Up and Aim to temporarily turn snipes into a useful, high DPA attack (the way unstealthed Assasin's Strike now works), tie a buff of some sort to those abilities. The current proposed solution puts everyone who doesn't take a microscope to their build at a significant disadvantage.

Am I the only one with this specific dislike for magic numbers and all-or-nothing benefits?


 

Posted

I'm fine with letting /devices keep their new advantage. God knows they needed something.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon View Post
I'm fine with letting /devices keep their new advantage. God knows they needed something.
I'm pretty good with this too. I haven't sat down and crunched numbers myself but giving a damage buff to /devices and Defenders isn't a bad thing in my books.


 

Posted

Hmmm. I do see your points..

One one, though, I don't agree with the 'build fail' conclusion, as a +21% to hit means that you'll be over the magic number a LOT whenever ANY other tohit buff comes your way.

But, I also see that shooting for an arbitrary magic number seems kludgey.

I'll have to think on it some more, I think, but right now, I don't see it being such a binary advantage...

I mean, +20% to hit still means you'll hit a lot more often. And can opt not to slot as much Acc in all your powers, therefore meaning more chances to slot for +Dam and +Recharge (or even +End Red or Range, or to enhance secondary effects).

It will create builds built around it, as you predict.... But does any other mechanic in the game not also do that?

I see your point, and I'm not saying that I can't be convinced to share your point of totally, but at present, I don't see the huge problem. On the other hand, I don't see why they just couldn't make the snipe always fast, and non-interruptable, either.


 

Posted

Thinking about it...they should have made it rely on a certain number of defiance stacks...for Blasters.

Makes sense conceptually...if you assume that "charging up" is the cast time on snipes and the defiance stacks...

...before a fight...if you want to use a snipe...you have to "charge up" to use it...but in the middle of a fight...you're already constantly "charged" by your constant attacking...allowing you to use this attack much more efficiently.


 

Posted

I don't believe it's even possible to get +ToHit from set bonuses (just +Accuracy, which is not the same thing despite the game itself often getting confused about that), the single exception being the Kismet +6% "Accuracy" (actually ToHit) unique. So you don't really need to take a magnifying glass to your build, since you're only going to be able to get the extra ToHit from a) Powers you already have, b) External buffs or c) the aforementioned Kismet IO. You can also use yellow inspirations to get there, by the way.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Thinking about it...they should have made it rely on a certain number of defiance stacks...for Blasters.

Makes sense conceptually...if you assume that "charging up" is the cast time on snipes and the defiance stacks...

...before a fight...if you want to use a snipe...you have to "charge up" to use it...but in the middle of a fight...you're already constantly "charged" by your constant attacking...allowing you to use this attack much more efficiently.
Brilliant. This idea needs to be heralded.


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Posted

I prefer the "You don't have to 'aim' because you already have sufficient tohit" explanation. It may or may not be the devs reasoning behind the mechanic, but it makes sense.

A stacking bonus like AS not only doesnt help you start off the fight faster, but it also makes no sense.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo View Post
I get what they're trying to do with making snipes useful again, something similar to the way they made over Assasin's Strike. But I really, *really* don't like making it hinge on a specific value of a specific statistic (22% +hit) that can be fairly readily perma'd, because it gives a noticeable, binary advantage to min-maxers, and it encourages weird build choices that otherwise make no sense.

It would hardly be the first thing in the game that people warp their builds to achieve, but it's the only one I'm aware of with an all-or-nothing benefit. Perma-dom is awesome, but 95% dom is still pretty good. 45% defense is great, but 44% is not bad. Here, +22.03% hit is a game changer, +21.87% hit is build fail. And people are talking about stacking four +hit enhancements in a power so they can gain the necessary last tenth of a percent to get access to fast, massive DPA snipes.

If the devs want Build-Up and Aim to temporarily turn snipes into a useful, high DPA attack (the way unstealthed Assasin's Strike now works), tie a buff of some sort to those abilities. The current proposed solution puts everyone who doesn't take a microscope to their build at a significant disadvantage.

Am I the only one with this specific dislike for magic numbers and all-or-nothing benefits?
I don't like it either because as people pointed out, a defender or corruptor can have the +22% up 100% of time (with tactics) while a blaster sans /dev cannot get that.


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V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
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Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon View Post
I prefer the "You don't have to 'aim' because you already have sufficient tohit" explanation. It may or may not be the devs reasoning behind the mechanic, but it makes sense.

A stacking bonus like AS not only doesnt help you start off the fight faster, but it also makes no sense.
My suggestion was in addition to the +tohit way. So you could still use it at the start of the fight if you have the +tohit.

Also...how does this not make sense...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Makes sense conceptually...if you assume that "charging up" is the cast time on snipes and the defiance stacks...

...before a fight...if you want to use a snipe...you have to "charge up" to use it...but in the middle of a fight...you're already constantly "charged" by your constant attacking...allowing you to use this attack much more efficiently.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
My suggestion was in addition to the +tohit way. So you could still use it at the start of the fight if you have the +tohit.

Also...how does this not make sense...?
Why, conceptually, would it make sense to be able to blind-fire off a sniper shot at a target just because you happened to shoot a couple times previously?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon View Post
Why, conceptually, would it make sense to be able to blind-fire off a sniper shot at a target just because you happened to shoot a couple times previously?
Alright...I'll admit...you got me there...it may not make conceptual sense for the weapon sets.

Though it could be played off simply by the fact that you are at a closer range...since you would have to build up stacks of defiance by using your shorter ranged attacks.

If you can snipe someone from 150+ feet...then it should be easier to snipe them from 80' or less...taking less time to aim.

That being said...the Defiance stacking option is just a suggestion...if you think it's not a good idea because it doesn't work conceptually with the weapon blast sets...then it is what it is.


 

Posted

Don't forget one Precise will boost your ToHit way above the 22% mark plus boost damage, last for 5 minutes and only cost 10 points each (15 cents or less). All you really 'have' to change in your build is pick up the snipe. There are plenty of ways to get the magic number without building for it. Teaming alone can put you there. I have seen a higher ToHit than that while on a reg team, all you need is two PPL running Tactics or even just one NW can put you there. On an ITrial it's almost a guarantee you will be above that mark.


 

Posted

True. I find running Tactics to be a popular thing on teams. So on teams, I'd likely expect to see lots of Blasters able to use Snipe often at it's non interruptable phase.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon View Post
Why, conceptually, would it make sense to be able to blind-fire off a sniper shot at a target just because you happened to shoot a couple times previously?
Presumably because you've been aiming at that target all along?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
Alright...I'll admit...you got me there...it does not make conceptual sense for the weapon sets.

Though it could be played off simply by the fact that you are at a closer range...since you would have to build up stacks of defiance by using your shorter ranged attacks.

If you can snipe someone from 150+ feet...then it should be easier to snipe them from 80' or less...taking less time to aim.

That being said...the Defiance stacking option is just a suggestion...if you think it's not a good idea because it doesn't work conceptually with the weapon blast sets...then it is what it is.
It's not that I have a problem with your idea, per se...I just think the reasoning behind the current proposed changes make sense, in its own way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Presumably because you've been aiming at that target all along?
Sure, if you HAVE been aiming at the same target all along. Defiance doesn't work like that though, you could be tabbing after each shot, and it wouldn't matter.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
True. I find running Tactics to be a popular thing on teams. So on teams, I'd likely expect to see lots of Blasters able to use Snipe often at it's non interruptable phase.
And Dominators/Defenders


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Equality_NA View Post
And Dominators/Defenders
I'm curious as to how Stalkers/Scrappers make out with this change? Their Snipes had longer cast times, but was that because of longer interrupt times?


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
I'm curious as to how Stalkers/Scrappers make out with this change? Their Snipes had longer cast times, but was that because of longer interrupt times?
The PPP snipe was terrible because of the ridiculously long interrupt time.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
True. I find running Tactics to be a popular thing on teams. So on teams, I'd likely expect to see lots of Blasters able to use Snipe often at it's non interruptable phase.
It strikes me as extremely wasteful to take an attack that I can only use reliably on teams though. Barring my archery/dev blaster and possibly my time defender (who plans on having power boosted farsight anyways) I can't see ever taking a snipe. They are nice attacks, but not THAT nice. Not AS nice where I get a missive opening strike from hide and then guaranteed crits every 4th attack or so.

I get that it makes sense conceptually to require a high to hit - but this is one of those cases where I think concept and balance are clashing and I am dissapointed at how many folks are willing to throw balance out the window. Barring the boost to /devices (which needs any boost it can get) it makes no sense to me to give a huge benefit to time corruptors/defenders when they are already overpowered, a large boost to all defenders who can do this with one power pick and an easy to get IO - and screw everyone else. Ok - not quite screw everyone else - but any attack I can only use after aim (or a really enhanced build up) is not one I am going to take.

We really need some other mechanic to enable decent snipes - I don't care whether it replaces the to hit mechanic or supplements it, I do think the 'concept' arguements are bogus.


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Posted

My dom will like these changes. Higher damage snipe than a blaster and all i need is one yellow inspiration and I have another extremely high DPA attack.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMystic View Post
The PPP snipe was terrible because of the ridiculously long interrupt time.
But now it will lose the terrible interrupt time if you can achieve the 22% ToHit.

Does this make it worthwhile to pick up now?


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Hmmm...looking it over. If Scrappers do lose the interrupt time, which I'm guessing is 6 seconds, only a KM/INV Scrapper would beable to perma it, and would still have Moonbeams 24 second recharge to deal with.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
But now it will lose the terrible interrupt time if you can achieve the 22% ToHit.

Does this make it worthwhile to pick up now?
I doubt it. Most Scrappers/Stalkers can only hit 22% by using Build Up so it's going to be a very limited period you can FastSnipe in. Now admittedly during that period it's a 2.3 damage scale with a 1.33s cast time (2s for Mace Beam) which does compare favorably to the heavy hitters in most sets so it may have some value there but it's going to be hard to make it a part of a regular attack chain.

I guess some Stalkers might take it to give a strong opening by doing Build Up -> Assassin's Strike -> Snipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Hmmm...looking it over. If Scrappers do lose the interrupt time, which I'm guessing is 6 seconds, only a KM/INV Scrapper would beable to perma it, and would still have Moonbeams 24 second recharge to deal with.
Claws Scrappers could as well but they'd have to deal with the redraw.


 

Posted

Devices getting a boost is good.

Time Manipulation getting a boost is not a good thing, and probably an unintended side effect of this change.

I'm surprised that it's been leveraged off an existing variable and not had a new one added. Gravity Control got its own variable for Impact effects for a minor damage boost to two powers - surely all blast sets are worthy of a variable that gets triggered by Build Up and Aim and Targetting Drone.