The problem with how Tyrant is defeated.

Honestly, I'm not seeing the big issue here. Especially since there's already heroes that do inhuman things "for the greater good".


They're called vigilantes. Just like how all villains are written into the Rogue column for co-op content, writing some vigilante co-op content for heroes wouldn't be the end of the world.

I find it funny, especially with the "slight against your side" comment, that you acted so negatively towards content that may make your hero do something their uncomfortable with.


"Redside content not up to snuff? Deal with it! Villains have to do it anyways because its for the greater good! Doesn't matter if you don't want to. Just dont run it in character"


"What? Heroes might have to do something off-color ""For the greater good""?"



"WHY I NEVER, YOU JUST WANT TO SPREAD THE UNHAPPYNESS I HAVE NEVER HEARD THE STUPIDEST IDEA IN MY LIFE WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING I DONT WANT TO"



You know what, if they made co-op content that forced heroes to do something bad for "the greater good"


...


...


...


just dont run it in character

"Nobody is forcing anyone to play through, and/or acknowledge anything in this game"

Yeah, I'd love to see what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot for just one issue.

Hell, back when SSA1 began, there were several threads in this very forum titled "CAN HEROES GET A WIN?" "DEVS HATE HEROES" "VILLAIN FAVORITISM" and other such crap.

ONE step towards the other side of the game and people lose their ****, but years catering to heroes? "Just don't run it in character."

I don't RP, and I never play evil content.

Except that's a massive dismissal towards those of us who've been insisting that this is bad for YEARS. The only reason you don't see more people complain that co-op content sucks for villains is because people gave up on talking about it since nothing ever comes of it. I was right at the forefront of this nonsense when it came to the Rikti War Zone, for instance. "Don't like it? You should have joined Longbow." says Levantera, and I'm tempted to slap her across the mouth and remind her that I tend to shoot Longbow on a daily basis as a matter of course. In character, of course. And then the story turns around and makes us buddy-buddy with Longbow because Sefu, for as honourable as that guy is, seems to be all too forgiving of the guy carrying around the badge "Villain" for killing 1000 Longbow agents.

Please, dampen your sweeping generalisations because they're rather irritating for those of us who've been bringing the problem of villains being shoehorned into hero content for years. OF COURSE we're going to complain if the same happened to heroes. If it's bad for villains, it's bad for heroes and I fail to see what's to "love" about people being pissed off, unless you subscribe to the same trite notion that players can be split into "heroes" and "villains." OF COURSE I'm going to get pissed off if my heroes get screwed over the same way my villains are, but I'm sure you "loving" that will make it all the better.

If you want to be constructive, help fix the problem rather than trying to perpetuate it so that the game can suck for everyone equally. Please, it's been seven years and I'm getting tired that tired old "us vs. them" mentality that never had a reason to exist in the first place. You feel slighted. I get it and I do appreciate it. But is that any reason to snark at people who are on your side?

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I remember the first issue after CoV launched was when they added Grandville and raised the villain level cap from 40 to 50. That issue was almost entirely villain content because it was finishing up stuff from CoV's development. I also remember the massive amounts of rage from the heroes that they weren't getting anything in that issue.

When I'm doing what I call an 'Ego fight' (no worries about outcome but my own or the other guy's ego), I'll go ahead and throw down fair and square as it were.

If I'm fighting for the life of someone else (in this case, our whole city/planet/reality), I will stalk, hide, knife, snipe, trip wire, bomb and otherwise 'cheat' any way I know how.

There are times when the getting there is more important. There are times when the outcome is the ONLY thing that's important.

If you doubt me, talk to the guys who didn't die because we 'cheated' and used the Bomb in WWII...

This is going to sound selfish but I want both. There are times when I create a themed toon with the idea 'This guy will be EPIC! I want the James Bond end fight movie scene with hundreds of agents on both sides fighting while I launch my missile of whatever.' I LIKE the feel of that...the Dr Doominess of it. The idea of the bad guy who has class and style.

I also want the guy who has no issues breaking into hospitals and contaminating medicine just to see the effects.

We have heroes of every stripe. We have Vigilantes who maim and kill to get the justice they feel the bad guys deserve. We have Rogues who don't want the badge but want a chance to walk in the sun and get out of the Isles for a vacation. But what about the Villains? I see no problem with writing darker content, setting it as separate arcs and labeling it as such for the players.

Comics have done this for decades. Half of the Avengers have been wanted at one time or another. Many heroes are from out of this world (literally) but you never see THEM producing a green card. And while most of the bad guys have a certain level of class and style, others threaten to blow up buses full of school children just so they can escape. I'm all about choice in my games, especially when they're rated Teen.

Games these days feature assassins, thieves and killers of every type. Don't tell me that a more grim version of a story arc is going to corrupt the youth of the world or make the industry come crashing to the ground. Empirical evidence proves otherwise.

Holy crap, Sam.

Seriously, holy crap. Why on EARTH would you think I've lumped you in with the same crowd who tell folks like me to "just don't run it in character", especially after we've agreed on so many different points? You CANNOT deny that, when villains get any exclusive treatment, a good deal of forumgoers get very, very angry about it. The SSA was the perfect example.

I'm not making an attack against you or anyone else who agrees that villainside content needs changing. I'm saying that, when villains DO get any decent writing, hero players tend to lose their cool, and that's incredibly unfair considering how the past 3-4 years of content has been. I know people are going to be pissed, but villain players like myself have been pissed since co-op content became the norm.

I'm not sure if you're having a bad day or what, dude.

EDIT: Also, to the folks who keep telling me that the devs will "cater to the majority of the players," I have an idea for you. Now, I may not be an economic specialist, and I may not know much about marketing, but why not cater to your ENTIRE PLAYERBASE, not just MOST of it? The majority doesn't pay a different monthly fee from the minority. It's not like villains are paying 5 bucks a month instead of 15 bucks and deserve a low prioritization.

Yes, only your personal avatar/stand-in and blatant Power Girl ripoff. We know.

I'd be perfectly happy if redside got its own villain and rogue only SSA in which Recluse, Ghost Widow, Mako and Jenkins were all killed in a 20 year plot perpetrated by the KR Hero Corps representative with the cowboy hat.

"Revamp MY zone, will you?!"

Most villains would like to see that too. Although Buck Salinger is a closer match than the Hero Corps Rep you mentioned.

Thanks! You just gave me an awesome idea for an Architect mission!

--
Pauper

Uninformed drivel?
First and foremost, let me repeat something that you most conveniently seemed to have missed or forgot...

My 'uninformed drivel' is no more right or wrong then your 'uninformed drivel' that the Devs hate red-side because they focus on co-op content that everyone can play, regardless of what their alignment is.
At least I am commenting on what some have written here already...

You're right on one thing. 'Some does not equal all. Or even most.' I merely brought it up because it had been mentioned right here in this very thread...
Also please, point out where I made the broad, sweeping statement that /all/ people who play villains want co-op content that forced heroes to do something bad for "the greater good". Or is that just something else you perceived a certain way because I pointed out the logical fallacy of ‘two wrongs making a right’?

And then some (not all… just making sure that’s clear) thought that was a great idea with comments along the lines of,
‘Yeah, I'd love to see what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot for just one issue.’


And like I also said, and will repeat again...
Everyone is forced into some kind of content on this game regardless of them being heroes, villains, or some flavor in between. Just a few examples...


I have to deal with the fact that, apparently my hero derives all her powers from some all powerful entity called the Well of Furies. Why? Because some arrogant titan standing at the end of time said so.

I have to deal with that fact that I can’t save my doppelganger after the fight with Protean at the end of the Jenni Adair arc.

I have to deal with the fact that I can’t un-Rikti-fy Hero-1, or permeately defeat U’Kon Gr’ai in a mothership raid, or stop Hro’Dtohz from teleporting away…

Or being forced to help Pendragon claim Excalibur in the Belladonna arc, despite repeated warnings that he shouldn’t...
Actually as I write this... I’d say that sounds like either complete idiocy on the part of the hero, or pure chaotic mischief on the part of a villain…
‘Yeah, I’m with you there Pendragon ol’ buddy… You /should/ claim that sword! Those Black Knights are just trying to hold you back. They don’t know what they are talking about! *villain snickers to themselves as Pendragon takes Excalibur and gets possessed by it* Oh… this ought to be good… Ack! He’s attacking me now!’
Of course, in a perfect gaming world, you would be given the option of not fighting the IDF in the next mission. I guess it would have been better if Sinclair decided to hunt you down, stalking you across the map and sniping at you with that bow and arrow of his.
But hey, that’s just how I ‘perceive’ it and that’s my opinion, right?

Oh, and for the record, if the Devs ever did create a co-op arc/trial/whatever where heroes were forced into doing something despicable… I /would/ play through it. And I would either rationalize my reason for doing it ICly, or run it OOCly and not acknowledge it otherwise. I sure as hell wouldn’t pitch a fit over it like it’s assumed most blue-siders would

You go have fun with that. Hope you have a wonderful day. *waves*

You can just call me out, y'know. XD

Actually, hindsight being what it is, I should have direct quoted you, or /not/ direct quoted Charcoal, and not done both.
Apologies for that... x.x

It? Singular? Sure, I would play through that too when the one time was called the RWZ.

Nalrok_AthZim already posted a comprehensive list of just how much content you would actually have to "OOCly justify" for this to be an even remotely fair comparison. It covers how many years?

But perhaps you are just a better person than us. That's fine, but I don't see how that's helping the rest of us. It's just a prettier way to say "deal with it".

We have been. For a long time.

Hey Sam, sorry about blowing a gasket. This thread is doing a good job of souring my mood.

I had just gone over that debate in my head before clicking submit: "should I say 'villain players' instead? Nah, too elaborate, and people will know what I mean." Some of us do think before we post.

And I'm not sure how to take being compared to Bad Influence...

You know, its funny... my entire post there and the first thing you single out my use of the word 'It', implying that, if the Devs ever did make such and arc/trial/whatever, that I believe there should only be one.

*looks over her posts very carefully, trying to see where she said or implied that...*

As for me perhaps being a better person...
Your words, not mine.
But... thanks for the compliment.

Well, sorry. How many do you believe there should be then?

Personally I'm voting 'none'. I'd also hope villains wouldn't be forced into that situation, but I'm five years too late on that. See, what I'm objecting to, is an issue of quantity. When you say, " if the Devs ever did create a co-op arc/trial/whatever where heroes were forced into doing something despicable" that you'd play through it anyway, that's fine. But can you honestly tell me you wouldn't be just a teensy bit dissatisfied if they repeated that pattern for the next 13 issues? That's a lot of content that you can't justify playing through ICly.

Going "that" route basically means that you were just playing along with the other members of the story, all the while waiting for your opportunity to grab power for yourself. I'd say that's pretty villainous.

Not to mention there's plenty of opportunity to show your bad side prior to that (talking to the dude after the Arachnos patron and his lackeys depart, breaking another dude out of the Zig, and the aforementioned letting two heroes just die).

--
Pauper

I'm recognizing a pattern here. And that it's 'anything can be villainous as long as you add the "waiting for your opportunity to grab power for yourself" tag at the end.'


Help the Shining Stars root out their traitor!.... While you wait for your opportunity to grab power for yourself.

Save the Terra Volta Reactor!.... While you wait for your opportunity to grab power for yourself.

Rescue Fusionette!.... While you wait for your opportunity to grab power for yourself.


I understand the Devs cant let villains choose everything they do, and do anything they want. But we can't wait around to grab power for ourselves forever. That's the difference between hero and villain content. Hero arcs actually have climaxes and payoffs that make you feel important. Villain arcs just have you wait around to grab power for yourself, and then beat up the guy that gets it first. Probably because all you did was sit around and wait for an opportunity to grab power for yourself.

Wade is the posterboy for trench coats. If anyone owns the cowboy hat, it's her.

If your forces ever end up in pitched battle against an opponent's full strength, you have utterly failed as their commander.

No-one who wants to win fights fair. If you're not seeking to notch the "W" column by any means necessary, you're not trying hard enough.