The problem with how Tyrant is defeated.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-15 15:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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In a comicbook game, I prefer to punch Nazis, not play them.
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Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
I am suggesting you play a responsibility loyalist
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If, by 'nazis', you mean close-minded bigots who refuse to understand more of the world than what's just beyond the tip of their nose, I think you got that backwards. You are playing that. I'm offering a chance to break that habit.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
In a comicbook game, I prefer to punch Nazis, not play them.
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But never mind, the offer was made and I have my answer. Thank you.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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I think you misunderstood. By "extreme measures" I was suggesting that co-op (and therefore hero) players should have to do things that are evil but necessary in the context of a major crisis/war. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
That theme has been stale for years now. That's what happened. I want someone to make a comic where a villain looks at new content, is asked to fight a greater power, replies with "You think I'm going to do that AGAIN?!" and just walks away laughing. Then, the next four panels are the same villain saying that phrase and walking away laughing from Imperious, Lady Grey, The Midnighters and Prometheus.
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If co-op forces villains to save the world it should also force heroes to kill civilians.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'll assume they went into the trash, considering the first dialogue options villains get with Heather Townshend are:
"I'll be playing the role of hero today." "I'm here to save the day." (or something very, very similar) Why the hell even bother? |
Most of the things players want have a significant cost in time and money (textures, powers). But writing slightly differently really ... doesn't.
The only conclusion I can make is that the villainous options were omitted on purpose.
We really need an "All things writing" thread, with redname participation.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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Ah, gotcha. My apologies.|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
I think you misunderstood. By "extreme measures" I was suggesting that co-op (and therefore hero) players should have to do things that are evil but necessary in the context of a major crisis/war.
If co-op forces villains to save the world it should also force heroes to kill civilians. |
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Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
What gets me is that it could have been so EASY to add one more line there.
Most of the things players want have a significant cost in time and money (textures, powers). But writing slightly differently really ... doesn't. The only conclusion I can make is that the villainous options were omitted on purpose. We really need an "All things writing" thread, with redname participation. |
"Shut up, Townshend. You have five seconds to tell me where I can find someone to kill."
"Enough with the sob story. You have a problem. I have free time, superpowers, and some spare bloodlust. Let's help each other out here."
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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It does also have to work for Rogues or for less notoriously horrible villains. That should be considered as well. But I agree removing the pause fine pause would be better in this case (but not really so much better that I worry about it).
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Look, I understand what you're driving at. Would it be a bad thing to give something like this a more neutral tone, so at the very least it doesn't feel like the rest of villain content?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I don't think the hero players would ever accept having to do evil things in order to advance their character or participate in new content.
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Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
I think you misunderstood. By "extreme measures" I was suggesting that co-op (and therefore hero) players should have to do things that are evil but necessary in the context of a major crisis/war.
If co-op forces villains to save the world it should also force heroes to kill civilians. |
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Villains get the short end of that very stick. Disparity much?
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Originally Posted by Zaloopa
I don't think the hero players would ever accept having to do evil things in order to advance their character or participate in new content.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Villains are villains partly because they can, and will, do whatever is beneficial (in whatever way) to them without regard for the cost. Saving the world to get cosmic powers and a place to keep all your stuff is not even in the same league let alone ballpark as slaughtering the innocents because their wails of anguish are displeasing to your ears and you don't want to spend a buck on earplugs.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Villains get the short end of that very stick. Disparity much?
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Basically, a villain has no limits. A hero does. A villain can justify anything.
Heroes have to go red to get PPPs. Villains don't have to go blue to get APPs. So heroes too are forced into content that they don't like to get powers.
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We've been doing that over and over and over and over again. We shouldn't have to keep using the same excuse every time new content comes out. I have a great number of villains. They are not all the same. They do not all care whether or not the world blows up tomorrow. They wouldn't lift a finger to help the heroes.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
Villains are villains partly because they can, and will, do whatever is beneficial (in whatever way) to them without regard for the cost. Saving the world to get cosmic powers and a place to keep all your stuff is not even in the same league let alone ballpark as slaughtering the innocents because their wails of anguish are displeasing to your ears and you don't want to spend a buck on earplugs.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Basically, a villain has no limits. A hero does. A villain can justify anything.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Heroes have to go red to get PPPs. Villains don't have to go blue to get APPs. So heroes too are forced into content that they don't like to get powers.
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Alpha/Judgement/Interface/Lore/Destiny Slots
Badges from the RWZ/Cimerora/Dark Astoria/Holiday Trials
Completion of SSA1
Please don't compare the two. You guys get 4-5 badges out of going red, getting your powers and swapping back alone. Sure, we get APP's for free but we still get shoehorned into being heroic everywhere else in the end game.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
This argument is pointless.
No one's going to change anyone's mind, and that goes double for Golden "I have a smug, dismissive comment for everything 
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It's also not going to result in any more proper villain content, because even if the current devs are capable of writing some, it's not as cost-effective for them as co-op content. If a shrinking minority of their playerbase has to grit their teeth while doing it, well, too bad.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Doesn't mean I'm going to stop pushing for better redside writing. I'd be willing to bet that if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be clamoring for better hero writing like I am for villain writing.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
This argument is pointless.
No one's going to change anyone's mind, and that goes double for Golden "I have a smug, dismissive comment for everything " Girl.It's also not going to result in any more proper villain content, because even if the current devs are capable of writing some, it's not as cost-effective for them as co-op content. If a shrinking minority of their playerbase has to grit their teeth while doing it, well, too bad. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Hear hear.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Doesn't mean I'm going to stop pushing for better redside writing. I'd be willing to bet that if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be clamoring for better hero writing like I am for villain writing.
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As for the "it doesn't make sense to give attention to red-side when there are more blue-side players" argument, then what's up with the coming blaster changes? Why aren't we focusing exclusively on scrappers?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Maybe you would. I'm as likely to take a cold look at my chances of getting it, then give up and quit the game.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I'd be willing to bet that if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd be clamoring for better hero writing like I am for villain writing.
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My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Whoa whoa whoa there. I've never mentioned I'm gonna quit.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
Maybe you would. I'm as likely to take a cold look at my chances of getting it, then give up and quit the game.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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That was actually my point, I was just being subtle about it. |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Villains get the short end of that very stick. Disparity much?
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Doesn't help that I suck at subtlety.
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Originally Posted by Zaloopa
That was actually my point, I was just being subtle about it.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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And yet by ignoring their players who enjoy playing villains, they are effectively pushing players away from the game. Those players either have to play heroes all the time or quit. I can only speak for myself but I know that a lot of my decision to drop my sub was due to villains not being catered for any more. I like playing my heroes too but I'm fed up of paying for zones that only half of my characters can use. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
It's also not going to result in any more proper villain content, because even if the current devs are capable of writing some, it's not as cost-effective for them as co-op content. If a shrinking minority of their playerbase has to grit their teeth while doing it, well, too bad.
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Last time I saw anything official, the split between heroes and villains was 60/40. If Paragon wish to ignore that 40% then more fool them quite frankly.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Honestly and without any snark intended, I have to ask two questions...
1) Why are you playing villains that are so vehement against helping defend their home when their very lives and existence is on the line?
Are they really that bat-**** crazy that they don't care of they die? (Which I suppose is a viable answer, but then I have to ask why you do any content at all... aside from just street sweeping and killing everything in sight... And also... why would you really want to play such a character anyway? o.O)
Or, are you ignoring the limitations of the game and saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, my villain is just going to pop into his little pocket dimension and giggle like a school girl as the world burns.' or 'He would never die. He could take on the Battalion on his own with one hand tied behind his back...'
Which kind of leads into my next question...
2) Why are you insisting on following the lore of the game to the point where it starts to hinder your enjoyment of it?
Yes, there is an overall meta-story to the game. Sure, some people don't like it. But /WHY/ are you insisting that it must all apply to your character in some way, shape or form, if it's hindering your enjoyment of the game?
Why on earth would you get so worked up about the perceived way some words are displayed by an NPC?
CoX gives you, the player, the wonderful ability to pick and choose what story elements actually apply to your character.
For example, you could run the Magisterium trial to unlock your Hybrid Slot, beat up Tyrant, get the badges even... But nowhere does it say you have to acknowledge that you have done it.
That's just one example, and probably not the best one out there, but you get the idea...
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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Let's see if I can answer your questions. I think I could probably do this in my sleep, by now. |
Originally Posted by NaoGal
Honestly and without any snark intended, I have to ask two questions...
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1) As has been said again and again, we're not opposed to the idea that villains occasionally get to save the day. We're opposed to the idea that essentially all new content involves villains saving the day. We're opposed to the idea that essentially all new content has been hero content that villains are graciously allowed to play through as well. It gets old. It gets stale. And, to be frank, it's disrespectful to the portion of the playerbase that prefer villainous content.
Take the movie Rise of the Silver Surfer. Now, ignoring whether it was a good movie, it does (to me) exemplify hero-villain cooperation. The villain has a plan beyond "for the greater good." The villain gets to go through with it, even if he does fail horribly in the end.
Take the Praetorian War. We have a dimension full of super-tech. We have an orderly society that, frankly, is geared to handling small-time insurrection like the resistance, syndicate, etc. Relatively small-scale or subtle enemies. The place is ripe for picking while everyone else gets busy fighting a war.
But at the end of the day, it really just comes down to the writing. Most of these missions barely acknowledge that you're a villain. Heck, a few of them explicitly doesn't.
If you had read up on every time someone has brought up your questions, you'd realize that none of us wants "destroy the world" missions. We just wanty content that acknowledge that villain motivation is deeper than "for the greater good". We would be playing blue-side if that's what we wanted.
2) It's all about acknowledgement. Does the Devs even realize they have a red side? From a lot 'new' content (admittedly, I think DA does this better than most) I can see why people would start to doubt it. We're not asking for 15 issues of exclusive villain content, but it'd nice if the mission writers would put a little more effort into thinking A) Why would a villain character even be here? And B) Can we throw in a few twists for our red-side players. If you can't come up with an answer to A, you should just accept that what you are working on isn't co-op content.
And no, before anyone get started, the answer to A isn't "we will pay you!" like the rest of the game. Because, you know, they never actually do, nor does the concept of 'money' even exist mechanically. If I want a warehouse full of pretend-money, I'll do a mayhem mission thankyouverymuch.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Heroes have to go red to get PPPs. Villains don't have to go blue to get APPs. So heroes too are forced into content that they don't like to get powers. |
Oh PLEASE. You went there? And how many years did silly heroes just GET their powers for no work at all..while villains had to do a whole arc? Not to mention TWO other arcs, just to be able to start the 'endgame' tf?
Wah Wah
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A fair question. Slaunyeh has already offered a very good explanation too which I would wholeheartedly agree with. However, I shall quote Nalrok from earlier in the thread:|
Originally Posted by NaoGal
Honestly and without any snark intended, I have to ask two questions...
1) Why are you playing villains that are so vehement against helping defend their home when their very lives and existence is on the line? Are they really that bat-**** crazy that they don't care of they die? (Which I suppose is a viable answer, but then I have to ask why you do any content at all... aside from just street sweeping and killing everything in sight... And also... why would you really want to play such a character anyway? o.O) Or, are you ignoring the limitations of the game and saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, my villain is just going to pop into his little pocket dimension and giggle like a school girl as the world burns.' or 'He would never die. He could take on the Battalion on his own with one hand tied behind his back...' |
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And you know what? I did pretend that my villains were making their own plans just by helping heroes. I did it in the RWZ. Then I did it in Cimerora. Then I did it in the holiday events. Then I did it during Apex. And Tin Mage. Then I did it in the SSA. Then I did it in the BAF. And Lambda Sector. And on Keyes Island. And in the Underground. And in the Mother of Mercy hospital. And at the TPN campus. And in Mot's gullet. And in The Magisterium. |
No, my villains are not so stupid to ignore high level threats but they've been forced into hero content so much now, there doesn't seem to be any point in playing them. It's tired, overused, lazy, boring. If the Devs start to write for villains again, properly, giving us the chance to actually play villains rather than heroes' shady sidekicks, I'll happily resub and pay up. That is, after all, what I paid for City of Villains for.
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Originally Posted by NaoGal
2) Why are you insisting on following the lore of the game to the point where it starts to hinder your enjoyment of it?
Yes, there is an overall meta-story to the game. Sure, some people don't like it. But /WHY/ are you insisting that it must all apply to your character in some way, shape or form, if it's hindering your enjoyment of the game? Why on earth would you get so worked up about the perceived way some words are displayed by an NPC? CoX gives you, the player, the wonderful ability to pick and choose what story elements actually apply to your character. For example, you could run the Magisterium trial to unlock your Hybrid Slot, beat up Tyrant, get the badges even... But nowhere does it say you have to acknowledge that you have done it. That's just one example, and probably not the best one out there, but you get the idea... |
I'm a roleplayer. The lore of this game is something I have loved since day one. I have enjoyed immersing myself within the world of the game for over six years now but in recent years I've seen a decline in the writing, lack of content for villains and an obsession with another dimension I care not two pips about. Night Ward was simply the final straw so I've unsubbed. Sure, I've ignored a fair amount of content on the game in order to roleplay within it. But when I'm ignoring whole zones and the Incarnate system, I'm not having fun anymore. So why pay for something I'm not enjoying?
Some people care about the lore even if they're not roleplayers. And if the story is not up to scratch, they have as much right to complain about it as a broken mechanic.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Because not all of my villains are the opportunistic type. Some of them -are- crazy. Some of them would look up at the meteor bearing down on earth, and shrug. My villains are diverse. Their options should be as well.|
Originally Posted by NaoGal
Honestly and without any snark intended, I have to ask two questions...
1) Why are you playing villains that are so vehement against helping defend their home when their very lives and existence is on the line? Are they really that bat-**** crazy that they don't care of they die? (Which I suppose is a viable answer, but then I have to ask why you do any content at all... aside from just street sweeping and killing everything in sight... And also... why would you really want to play such a character anyway? o.O) Or, are you ignoring the limitations of the game and saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, my villain is just going to pop into his little pocket dimension and giggle like a school girl as the world burns.' or 'He would never die. He could take on the Battalion on his own with one hand tied behind his back...' Which kind of leads into my next question... |
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Originally Posted by NaoGal
2) Why are you insisting on following the lore of the game to the point where it starts to hinder your enjoyment of it?
Yes, there is an overall meta-story to the game. Sure, some people don't like it. But /WHY/ are you insisting that it must all apply to your character in some way, shape or form, if it's hindering your enjoyment of the game? Why on earth would you get so worked up about the perceived way some words are displayed by an NPC? CoX gives you, the player, the wonderful ability to pick and choose what story elements actually apply to your character. For example, you could run the Magisterium trial to unlock your Hybrid Slot, beat up Tyrant, get the badges even... But nowhere does it say you have to acknowledge that you have done it. That's just one example, and probably not the best one out there, but you get the idea... |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Maybe off topic from the title of the thread but i'd like to put my two cents in on behalf of redside. When I started on ish 10, we still had a decent redside pop on Justice, and better than 80% of my justice toons and probably 65% of all my toons total across all servers are redsiders. Its personal preference, and ease of play (less running about nonsense zone to zone) and well written storylines. I admit i am not fully versed in all things blueside in terms of story. However, one has to acknoweledge it may not be coincidence that the concentration on new gameplay towards co-op has had a negative affect on redside population across the servers. And inherently, it is unwise not to have parity when developing new content to functionally ostracize a significant minority of your game playing population. When i bought into this game i didnt buy the COH pack, i bought the COV pack, and was excited when the opportunity presened itself to try blue side as well. However i fear that the gravitation of more players to blueside is due to the dip in vilside population and i think its shameful to let such a richly detailed universe over in the rogue isles go to waste. Weighting towards co-op does not equal parity, and i think if we put some more appealing storylines, with some rewards as a nice carrot and made it redside only content, you would have a population resurgence that woul dbenefit membership across the board, ultimately. (seeing as how new players wont hear, "oh vilside, who wants to go there, nobody ever plays there" etc.)
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I want to point out the dichotomy of this statement...| No for me and for my character would behave the same as Goku and Vegeta did in DBZ. Goku let Frieza fight at full strength to show he was better. Likewise, Vegeta could of beaten Cell but wanted to fight his ultimate form (which got Vegeta beaten) to prove his might. |
Succeed, and you look like a total bad-***.
Fail, and you look like a total dumb-***.
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Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
Just offering a chance for you to come off as less close minded than you usually appear. For the greater good, right?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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