The problem with how Tyrant is defeated.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-15 15:09 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by MisterD
it is obvious the Devs cant make things TOO evil.
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| I still wish we had the option of HELPING Cole. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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This already happens. With PPPs, as mentioned by others, and redside badges. And the Vigilante->Villain tips are some of the darkest content in the whole game. So adding evil things to some of the co-op content should not be a big deal for heroes. |
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
I don't think the hero players would ever accept having to do evil things in order to advance their character or participate in new content.
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Originally Posted by NaoGal
Honestly and without any snark intended, I have to ask two questions...
1) Why are you playing villains that are so vehement against helping defend their home when their very lives and existence is on the line? Are they really that bat-**** crazy that they don't care of they die? (Which I suppose is a viable answer, but then I have to ask why you do any content at all... aside from just street sweeping and killing everything in sight... And also... why would you really want to play such a character anyway? o.O) Or, are you ignoring the limitations of the game and saying something along the lines of 'Yeah, my villain is just going to pop into his little pocket dimension and giggle like a school girl as the world burns.' or 'He would never die. He could take on the Battalion on his own with one hand tied behind his back...' Which kind of leads into my next question... |
Some of my villains are that crazy. For others dying merely means going back to hell. One of them wants to die but does not want anyone else to outlive him. I understand that all outliers cannot be catered to by the writing but at least the major themes "to get something out of it" and "because I hate them" should be acknowledged.
Another point: "saving the world" should not mean "being nice about it". If we could assist in the Praetorian War by doing mayhems in the Prae zones, with target-able civilians, (most) my villains would be all over it. If we could say to Townshend "tell me everything you know about what is going on here or get thrown to the zombies" that would have worked fine. If SSA1.7 had dialogue options that said "I am only fighting Wade because he dared to betray me" and contacts acknowledged them, that would have been great.
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Originally Posted by NaoGal
2) Why are you insisting on following the lore of the game to the point where it starts to hinder your enjoyment of it?
Yes, there is an overall meta-story to the game. Sure, some people don't like it. But /WHY/ are you insisting that it must all apply to your character in some way, shape or form, if it's hindering your enjoyment of the game? Why on earth would you get so worked up about the perceived way some words are displayed by an NPC? CoX gives you, the player, the wonderful ability to pick and choose what story elements actually apply to your character. For example, you could run the Magisterium trial to unlock your Hybrid Slot, beat up Tyrant, get the badges even... But nowhere does it say you have to acknowledge that you have done it. That's just one example, and probably not the best one out there, but you get the idea... |
- in a videogame, quality of writing cannot be considered in isolation of the characters being played through it.
Therefore, much co-op content when playing a villain is poorly written and less enjoyable.
And I would like the content I play, including co-op/incarnate, to be more enjoyable to me.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
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I absolutely agree with everything you said in your post, I just wanted to comment on this part.|
Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
This already happens. With PPPs, as mentioned by others, and redside badges. And the Vigilante->Villain tips are some of the darkest content in the whole game. So adding evil things to some of the co-op content should not be a big deal for heroes.
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I wouldn't count the PPPs as locking character advancement behind villain content because heroes still have the option of taking APPs. However if villains want to make any reasonable advancement past the Alpha incarnate slot they have to participate in heroic content.
It would be like if the entire incarnate system was all about robbing banks and the heroes had to go along with it because they need the money to donate to orphanages or something silly. At least that's the closest analogy that I could think of.
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That's becasue it's evil content - it's about bad people becoming even worse - which isn't what co-op content is about at all.
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Originally Posted by Charcoal_EU
And the Vigilante->Villain tips are some of the darkest content in the whole game.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No, co-op content is about bad people being selfless and helpful, which makes no sense.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
That's becasue it's evil content - it's about bad people becoming even worse - which isn't what co-op content is about at all.
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Emperor Cole should be currently a 3rd leader for yr character to side with, Recluse and Arachnos are stupid if they were so uber and powerfull why aint they come even close to world domination? and Statesman was selfish and nows hes dead *Peasents Rejoice* so the devs to me ruined Praetoria by having ALL loyalists being forced to fight him ,even Primal villains and heroes who see the power he holds and wants to side with him cant, story would of been much better had Cole united both worlds to fight the Battalion Cole created order in the way he saw fit, yes he did evil things but hey who was worse him or the govement that had the trigger fingers for the nukes
*Union* Dark lord of mercs and cookies!
@EU Great Cthulhu
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Bad people exploit good people all the time for their own evil plans |
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
No, co-op content is about bad people being selfless and helpful, which makes no sense.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That wasn't the purpsoe of Praetoria - it was never meant to be a 3rd faction - it was designed to set the scene for the dimensional war.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Azazel
Emperor Cole should be currently a 3rd leader for yr character to side with
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| Recluse and Arachnos are stupid if they were so uber and powerfull why aint they come even close to world domination? |
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| so the devs to me ruined Praetoria by having ALL loyalists being forced to fight him ,even Primal villains and heroes who see the power he holds and wants to side with him cant, story would of been much better had Cole united both worlds to fight the Battalion |
And we'll still have some Paretorian help against the Battalion - only it'll be from free people, not from the slaves or stormtroopers of a dictatorship.
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| Cole created order in the way he saw fit, yes he did evil things but hey who was worse him or the govement that had the trigger fingers for the nukes |
And from your comments, I'm guessing that you're one of those people who thinks "A New Hope" goes downhill once Leia refuses to say where the rebel base is?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except in this game's co-op content.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Bad people exploit good people all the time for their own evil plans
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Where bad people get exploited by the so called heroes...|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
Except in this game's co-op content.
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Ooh look, looks like they're sliding already.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Please stop posting in this thread. You are offering nothing to the current discussion and every time you post something like "villains suck" you take the whole conversation a step backwards.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They're failures - like all Villains
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I'll ask nicely: Please take your comments elsewhere and let people who are legitimately concerned about villain content discuss it here without meaningless input.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Thank you all for answering my questions, though I am not sure I completely understand your reasoning on some points... (But that's me, not a reflection of your ability to explain yourselves...)
So it all boils down to a couple of simple things...
-The text isn't really suited for how some villains would play or act.
Honestly, I see this less then is portrayed here, since most of what NPCs say throughout the game seem rather neutral to me. How you interpret the way your character says those words (or even if they actually say them) is up to you.
-Too many co-op zones geared towards 'Hero' content.
The Rikti Warzone... Where both heroes and villains alike are told point blank when they first arrive to basically stow whatever grudges they have with each other, against an enemy that attacked /everyone/ regardless of which side they were on...
Cimerora and First Ward/Night Ward... Stand alone areas that really have only a loose connection with anything else. Imperious doesn't really care who you are. He just wants his position of authority back. And not to mention Sister Aurelia, who only deals with villains...
Apex and Tin Mage TFs... Again, fighting against an enemy that didn't care which side you fell on. If anything, the Paragon City got the short end of that stick because because they got hit more then the Rogue Isles did.
The iTrials... Striking back against an enemy that has already attacked Primal Earth in the above mentioned TFs. Perhaps more villains would take all that far more personally if they were interrupted by the Praetorian offensive while they were out trying to get a hotdog... (No, don't take that comment too seriously, I'm trying to inject a touch of humor here...)
Fighting against Mot and all of Dark Astoria... Again, dealing with an entity that would basically devour everything and everyone, regardless of whether your a hero, villain, or Joe average civilian. And during which, despite what some might say, allows for some pretty dark, despicable choices to be made…
The battle against Emperor Cole... Why would you want to side with somebody that would eventually destroy you and replace you with one of his (much more controllable with much less free will) Olympian Guard? Or at best, keep you around under the control of a very harsh thought police, and Praetor Tillman, who has no issues what so ever with cutting out those problematic, troublesome parts of peoples psyche that lead to silly things like free will.
(This last part is nothing more then my own point of view… As always, take it or leave it as you see fit…)
All this (and more) being said... hey... it is, in the end your opinion that matters to you (just like mine matters to me.) If your playing someone that honestly, truly didn't give a damn if the world was destroyed or not, then hey, that's your prerogative. I can't fathom that kind of character. I've tried. It doesn't work for me...
Despite what has been said here, /all/ characters are forced to do things a certain way at times. To point out the Incarnate content is silly to me, because you are pointing at the... what? The last, 5 to 10% of the game as an entire whole? (And even that amount is being generous, I think...)
This game allows players to do more then most other MMOs have ever even pretended to offer. Everything from creating your characters back story, to customizing their appearance, to giving them multiple story-arcs to follow as they progress on their way to level 50, and even beyond with the inclusion of Dark Astoria and the iTrials.
As harsh as this sounds, the reasons people have given as to why they are unhappy about how villains are treated are nothing more then perceived slights against them. Nobody is forcing anyone to play through, and/or acknowledge anything in this game. If someone is absolutely adamant about no longer paying for this game on those grounds… Well, nothing I or anybody else says will likely change their minds…
Last, (and most likely, least on this entire subject…)
It’s been stated that some would love to see co-op content where the heroes are forced to do something despicable ‘for the greater good’… Really? It has been stated again and again how villains have been forced into doing heroic-type stuff ‘for the greater good’, which you say is wrong and not fair… So you’d want the same thing to happen in the other direction? By that line of thinking, two wrongs somehow make things right? That sounds less like someone wanting to make the game better, and more like they would rather try and spread their unhappiness to others...
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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Nope, not really. I'm disappointed more than anything else. But the fact remains, for villains, once they reach level 50, their story stops dead. Unless they want to run the LRSF for eternity, there is nothing for them to do other than team up with heroes. |
Originally Posted by NaoGal
As harsh as this sounds, the reasons people have given as to why they are unhappy about how villains are treated are nothing more then perceived slights against them.
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And again, this is not to do with characters who are mindless thugs. Those ones are easy. Wind them up and point them in the direction of Bad Guy of the Month. But for any others, who want to gain money, power, influence over others, there is nothing, nowt, zilch, nada.
All the examples you cite are good reasons to lay aside differences and work together. But when it's been employed over and over and over again, it gets dull and demonstrates lazy writing and development. Give villains something beyond 50 to do other than saving the day once again and I'll be happy. Until then, meh.
Oh and for what it's worth, I'm not keen on co-op content of any variety even if it does make heroes do questionable things. I'd rather see shorter but multiple arcs for different alignments. Most of First and Night Ward were just padding and having different routes through the zone for heroes and villains would have been far more interesting.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Originally Posted by Dante
Nope, not really. I'm disappointed more than anything else. But the fact remains, for villains, once they reach level 50, their story stops dead. Unless they want to run the LRSF for eternity, there is nothing for them to do other than team up with heroes.
And again, this is not to do with characters who are mindless thugs. Those ones are easy. Wind them up and point them in the direction of Bad Guy of the Month. But for any others, who want to gain money, power, influence over others, there is nothing, nowt, zilch, nada. All the examples you cite are good reasons to lay aside differences and work together. But when it's been employed over and over and over again, it gets dull and demonstrates lazy writing and development. Give villains something beyond 50 to do other than saving the day once again and I'll be happy. Until then, meh. Oh and for what it's worth, I'm not keen on co-op content of any variety even if it does make heroes do questionable things. I'd rather see shorter but multiple arcs for different alignments. Most of First and Night Ward were just padding and having different routes through the zone for heroes and villains would have been far more interesting. |
Using Ouroboros to go back and do redside missions that you missed isn't an option?
Tip missions that reinforce your alignment... which have some of the darkest, most 'villiny' content available in the game, IMO.
Dark Astoria is all about the post-50 game... with a lead in about a guy thats threatening to kill you... Oh, and there are villain options for talking to NPCs there to...
To say that there are /no/ options for villains after 50 is an exercise in hyperbole...
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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DA also has a pretty epic jerk move right at the end for red siders to enjoy.
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Originally Posted by NaoGal
Dark Astoria is all about the post-50 game... with a lead in about a guy thats threatening to kill you... Oh, and there are villain options for talking to NPCs there to.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That and the ability to let kadabra kill and sigil die are about the only non-heroic options in all of the DA arcs. I still wish redsiders had a different chain of contacts for DA that were all about why you even care about fighting mot. Yeah, sure, for the greater good bla bla bla, but when the god of death pops up in the middle of a nest of do-gooders I wouldn't be worried. The heroes are probably going to stop it, I should go rob some banks while they're busy. At the very least I'd wait till Mot killed off the heroes before I got involved. That may not be a good strategy, but you don't exactly learn that until you're already involved with fighting Mot.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
DA also has a pretty epic jerk move right at the end for red siders to enjoy.
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It sounds like we need a trial version of "Crisis on Infinite Earths", where the Good guys went to confront the Anti-Monitor, while the Bad Guys went back in time to try and prevent that dude on OA from seeing the Beginning of Time, because at that point, it didn't matter if the Villains killed half of OA: If they or the good guys failed, there'd be no future to mess up anyway.
But they still lost because of ego and incompetence. I would trollolol if the "villain" portion of a co-op trial became free-for-all PvP because each villain wants to be THE ONE to click the glowie/get the final shot/do whatever...
And just how many people would whine and cry and scream over THAT?
Oh, it gets better: The one villain left standing has to fight all the Heroes, because they wouldn't take too kindly to a single villain killing half the team...
I think that's part of the trouble with writing villain-themed co-op content: Just TEAMING with other villains normally is a sketchy enough proposition. Add heroes to the mix, and it gets messy.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
It sounds like we need a trial version of "Crisis on Infinite Earths", where the Good guys went to confront the Anti-Monitor, while the Bad Guys went back in time to try and prevent that dude on OA from seeing the Beginning of Time, because at that point, it didn't matter if the Villains killed half of OA: If they or the good guys failed, there'd be no future to mess up anyway.
But they still lost because of ego and incompetence. I would trollolol if the "villain" portion of a co-op trial became free-for-all PvP because each villain wants to be THE ONE to click the glowie/get the final shot/do whatever... And just how many people would whine and cry and scream over THAT? Oh, it gets better: The one villain left standing has to fight all the Heroes, because they wouldn't take too kindly to a single villain killing half the team... I think that's part of the trouble with writing villain-themed co-op content: Just TEAMING with other villains normally is a sketchy enough proposition. Add heroes to the mix, and it gets messy. |
You know what? I like this idea...
/signed
"The part of me that is leaving... is going to miss the part of me that is staying..."
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
It sounds like we need a trial version of "Crisis on Infinite Earths", where the Good guys went to confront the Anti-Monitor, while the Bad Guys went back in time to try and prevent that dude on OA from seeing the Beginning of Time, because at that point, it didn't matter if the Villains killed half of OA: If they or the good guys failed, there'd be no future to mess up anyway.
But they still lost because of ego and incompetence. I would trollolol if the "villain" portion of a co-op trial became free-for-all PvP because each villain wants to be THE ONE to click the glowie/get the final shot/do whatever... And just how many people would whine and cry and scream over THAT? Oh, it gets better: The one villain left standing has to fight all the Heroes, because they wouldn't take too kindly to a single villain killing half the team... I think that's part of the trouble with writing villain-themed co-op content: Just TEAMING with other villains normally is a sketchy enough proposition. Add heroes to the mix, and it gets messy. |
As messy as that sounds, that would be perfect. But yeah, it wont happen.
It's gotten to a point where I just run all co-op content OOCly. There's no point worrying about how well villains are written anymore. It's not worth it.
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Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. What I'm saying is that there's no story development. What does it mean to be a villain that even Lord Recluse chooses not to touch? How did the Rogue Isles respond to the Praetorian threat? Have they been able to use the chaos to launch an offensive against Paragon? What are they doing now that Statesman is gone? Surely there's a huge opportunity there being missed. Does Von Grun know about the differences between Primal Hamidon and Praetorian Hamidon? Has he sent researchers to find out? |
Originally Posted by NaoGal
Using Ouroboros to go back and do redside missions that you missed isn't an option?
Tip missions that reinforce your alignment... which have some of the darkest, most 'villiny' content available in the game, IMO. Dark Astoria is all about the post-50 game... with a lead in about a guy thats threatening to kill you... Oh, and there are villain options for talking to NPCs there to... To say that there are /no/ options for villains after 50 is an exercise in hyperbole... |
There are things added to villains for sure. There were two new arc recently and even the Valentine mission advanced things a little. But if you can't see the huge disparity between villain story content and the overly heroic content we've been given recently then nothing I am going to say will convince you otherwise. Villains get access to the new zones but the best they get is a slightly darker version of the same story, one that is always about saving the world (although apparently, we're saving it for later, some vague, undisclosed time in the future when we can take it over). As I've already said, some zones don't even bother with that.
Writing for villains is always difficult. Difficult but not impossible. And getting villains to team up with other villains is surely easier than teaming them with their sworn enemies?
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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You forget, we're villains.|
Originally Posted by NaoGal
Last, (and most likely, least on this entire subject
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Its been stated that some would love to see co-op content where the heroes are forced to do something despicable for the greater good Really? It has been stated again and again how villains have been forced into doing heroic-type stuff for the greater good, which you say is wrong and not fair So youd want the same thing to happen in the other direction? By that line of thinking, two wrongs somehow make things right? That sounds less like someone wanting to make the game better, and more like they would rather try and spread their unhappiness to others... |
But seriously. Some does not equal all. Or even most. And I've never seen anyone actually suggest this seriously (unlike the blue-side nutjobs who seriously suggest dropping red-side support entirely). I've said what I have to say on the subject, though, especially after that "perceived slight" comment. That's the kind of uninformed drivel that almost makes me wish that blue-side had it as bad as red side. "Go play some old content in Ouroboros" indeed. Thank you, that's very helpful. Now excuse me, I have a Peter Themari arc to re-run.
I'm done.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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Actually, you're players. I should hope you're not actual villains. Or should I fear for my life right about now?|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
You forget, we're villains.
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I do agree with villains needing more villain-specific content wholeheartedly. I feel some of their existing zones can use more colour, but literally and metaphorically in terms of theme. I believe they need a whole new zone just to themselves. I believe the Rogue Isles side needs to feature more prominently in international, interplanetary and inter-dimensional conflicts. And while I do believe villains need more "villainy," I want to be very clear that I my definition of the word is not entirely abstract.
When I say I want more "villainy," I'm not asking for more torture porn, more angsty drama or more war crimes. There are certain aspects of what makes a villain a villain that I don't feel have any place in a game to begin with. See Dr. Light in Identity Crisis for reference. When I ask for more "villainy," I'm referring to the glamorous side of evil - the minions, the death rays, the prestige, the money, the imposing personality, the opportunity to put everyone over and get what you want, the power to force your way into your goal and so forth. I want the kind of villainy that makes villains cool and less the kind that makes villains despicable.
Why bring this up? Because Villain alignment missions are exactly the kind of villainy I DON'T care for in the slightest. It's dirty, sticky and unpleasant. Yes, Golden Girl would say that that's the point, that crime doesn't pay and you SHOULD leave playing a villain feeling bad and dirty and not having had fun. But that's the whole problem City of Villains suffered from the word go - it's designed to be unpleasant to play because whoever wrote the original content apparently couldn't fathom that otherwise good-natured people might enjoy playing a villain. The original Villain content, therefore, is written such that it's outwardly unpleasant for most and only really attractive as "catharsis" for satiating really unpleasant urges.
Now contrast this against Dean McArthur or Bane Spider Ruben or even Vincent Ross. They're still villain content, yes, and they're most decidedly evil, but they're written in such a way as to make the player feel important, proud satisfied at the end. It's evil painted in a glamorous light, and it's just fun. It's not, like the new Mercy Island, content that's designed to make you feel ashamed for having played it. The Dean/Ruben type of evil is what I really want more of, it's the kind of evil that paints my villain as a bigshot dangerous person who succeeds and doesn't get put over. Self-interested, self-serving villains that can't be stopped is what I feel the game needs more of.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Do I really have to explain the joke? C'mon Sam, you're better than that.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, you're players. I should hope you're not actual villains. Or should I fear for my life right about now?
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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No, no, I get what you mean. I'm just compelled to comment on this phrasing whenever I see it. Blame Bad Influence for using it literally too much of the time. *edit* And I was joking, as well. Just couldn't think of a good way to get that across.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Do I really have to explain the joke? C'mon Sam, you're better than that.
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That's why I only spent a couple of sentences on it, though. The rest of my post is what I wanted to focus on, mostly.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Fair point about villains never getting to be..villains.There are some pretty evil arcs Redside, peter themri and westin phipps come to mind as the worst.
Even the SSA arcs, while different..aren't really evil enough. Surely we would have just torn Wade apart after.
I can understand people getting fed up with the lore, even if it isnt something that would make me leave.
Likewise, it is obvious the Devs cant make things TOO evil..or we would need seperate worlds, for the two sides.
I still wish we had the option of HELPING Cole. I still think he is right..when he says he will destroy us for invading his world and destroying things.