Confused by double hit. How does it work?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 18:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Base damage is an attack's damage before enhancements and buffs are applied.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Technically, double hit's damage is a function of the base recharge time and "AOE factor" (based on radius and cone size).
It boils down to what the base damage of a given power should be according to the formula the devs use to design powers in the first place.
Of course not all powers follow that, since some are adjusted to favor their secondary effects. Others like epic pools have longer recharges than they "should", which is the reason that doublehit applies a cap on recharge (powers with more than 20 second recharges calculate doublehit as if they were 20 seconds).
TL;DR: The math for it is somewhat complex. Better to either slot it and find out or wait until someone makes a calculator for it.
Post about the exact math (mostly) here.
As Codewaker says, it's not very simple to summarize in general terms. It's something best left to programs and/or spreadsheets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I can't imagine who that would be...
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
TL;DR: The math for it is somewhat complex. Better to either slot it and find out or wait until someone makes a calculator for it.
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Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
If you were say...a fire corrupter. Would it be more worth taking assault core for the 65% damage spikes and just leave RoF to scourge vanilla style or take the radial and take the +damage hit but have pseudo-scourge to stack on vanilla scourge?
Is it worth taking radial over core when looking at fire on corruptors?
[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
Even on a Scrapper, with the best damage modifier in the game, Double Hit strongly beats out the flat +DMG stacking. I don't see any reason to take anything but the Double Hit route on any AT seeking Assault.
For the record, it was about a 10-12 second difference in Pylon Munching time between the two. Significant.
Double Hit Assault > Stacking +DMG Assault.
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Even if i cant fit Aim into my build? still double hit over stacking?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Even on a Scrapper, with the best damage modifier in the game, Double Hit strongly beats out the flat +DMG stacking. I don't see any reason to take anything but the Double Hit route on any AT seeking Assault.
For the record, it was about a 10-12 second difference in Pylon Munching time between the two. Significant. Double Hit Assault > Stacking +DMG Assault. |
[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
Quote:
Why would Aim matter? Double Hit is based off base. And even then, considering +DMG also applies to base, there's no logical reason that Double Hit would ever lose to +DMG, seeing as +DMG compared to the scaling of Double Hit evens out roughly considering damage scaling.|
Originally Posted by Black_Assassin
Even if i cant fit Aim into my build? still double hit over stacking?
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If you need a rough comparison, consider Double Hit on most powers to be a Purple Proc+ proccing each and every attack. Should give you a good idea of how powerful it is.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Why would Aim matter? Double Hit is based off base. And even then, considering +DMG also applies to base, there's no logical reason that Double Hit would ever lose to +DMG, seeing as +DMG compared to the scaling of Double Hit evens out roughly considering damage scaling.
If you need a rough comparison, consider Double Hit on most powers to be a Purple Proc+ proccing each and every attack. Should give you a good idea of how powerful it is. |
[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
Quote:
I do not believe this is true. My testing indicates that Core is almost always better for most characters with a damage mod of 1 or higher. I am really baffled how you managed to get more mileage out of Radial on a scrapper. What was the attack chain used?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Why would Aim matter? Double Hit is based off base. And even then, considering +DMG also applies to base, there's no logical reason that Double Hit would ever lose to +DMG, seeing as +DMG compared to the scaling of Double Hit evens out roughly considering damage scaling.
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Corruptors are lower than mod 1 and could be better off with Radial, BUT, Scourge makes it tricky, IMO. All of the bonus damage you get from Core is doubled with Scourge. None of the bonus damage from double-hit is affected by Scourge. And outside of scourge, Core is not too far below double-hit. Depending on what content you primarily play, it may be worth getting a slightly smaller bonus on regular spawns in order to get that really juicy power against tough opponents.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
All of the below ignores the extra DOT portion of Blaze for simplicity and to be more accurate for comparison of non-fire sets.
When I activate Blaze on my blaster, Double Hit does 83.95 damage. The base damage of Blaze is 132.6 on a blaster. Adding the 10% damage buff means Radial adds 97.21 damage when double hit goes off. Core would add 112.7 almost all the time. Core is likely better. On a corruptor, Double Hit would deal 83.95 damage. The base damage of Blaze is 88.42 on a corruptor. Adding the 10% damage buff means Radial adds 92.79 damage when double hit goes off. Core would add 75.16 damage almost all the time. Radial is better in the case of Blaze and other similar recharge powers and in cases where Scourge is not going to be doing a lot. On a defender, Double Hit would deal 83.95 damage. The base damage of Blaze is 76.63 on a defender. Adding the 10% damage buff means Radial adds 91.61 damage when double hit goes off. Core would add 65.14 damage almost all the time. Radial is likely better for defenders in many cases. Radial may need something else, but it is not as bad as some think. Core may need to be lowered, it is still very, very strong. Testing the proc rate of Double Hit with a tier 4 radial, using Flares. Three runs for the full 2 minutes. Run 1 - 18 procs out of 47 hits Run 2 - 14 procs out of 42 hits Run 3 - 16 procs out of 45 hits Testing the proc rate of Double Hit with a tier 4 radial, using Blaze. Three runs for the full 2 minutes. Run 1 - 21 procs out of 21 hits Run 2 - 21 procs out of 21 hits Run 3 - 21 procs out of 21 hits (consistent, wasn't I?) Testing the proc rate of Double Hit with a tier 4 radial, using Fireball. Three runs for the full 2 minutes. Run 1 - 32 procs out of 58 hits Run 2 - 29 procs out of 51 hits Run 3 - 26 procs out of 53 hits |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Well since my fire/time corr is only 16 atm i have the leisure of waiting till the number crunchers get their game on and do pylon runs etc etc so ill be watching closely
[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
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I haven't delved into it much yet, but I'd guess that part of the difference is the fact that Radial uses PPM and Core is a straight percentage, so high end builds with a lot of recharge can milk the PPM imbalance really easy.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I do not believe this is true. My testing indicates that Core is almost always better for most characters with a damage mod of 1 or higher. I am really baffled how you managed to get more mileage out of Radial on a scrapper. What was the attack chain used?
Corruptors are lower than mod 1 and could be better off with Radial, BUT, Scourge makes it tricky, IMO. All of the bonus damage you get from Core is doubled with Scourge. None of the bonus damage from double-hit is affected by Scourge. And outside of scourge, Core is not too far below double-hit. Depending on what content you primarily play, it may be worth getting a slightly smaller bonus on regular spawns in order to get that really juicy power against tough opponents. |
Global @Diellan - 5M2M
Mids' Hero/Villain Designer Lead
Virtue Server
Redside: Lorenzo Mondavi
Blueside: Alex Rabinovich
Got a Mids suggestion? Want to report a Mids bug?
So does Assault get passed onto MM pets?
Doesn't one of the T3s offer both [damage buffs] (Partial Core (and Radial) Graft)? How does that play out against the slotting that only provides one or the other?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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There were some bugs with it on Beta, but I do believe it was supposed to. I am not sure where the bugs ended up, as I do not play MMs so didn't follow that very closely.
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Originally Posted by Dz131
So does Assault get passed onto MM pets?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Given the significantly lower chances to trigger that these have, with lower stack limits for the +damage portion, I would expect them to be inferior to the Embodiment (T4) versions no matter what.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Doesn't one of the T3s offer both (Partial Core (and Radial) Graft)? How does that play out against the slotting that only provides one or the other?
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It's not clear to me which is better from a purely Graft (T3) perspective. The chances for the bonus from the "other side" of the tree (i.e.: the damage bonus for the Partial Radial Graft) seem pretty low.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
But even at 100% proc rate for doublehit, Core should be better on high damage mod ATs. If it is not, it needs to be addressed. My tests do show that while I can almost constantly keep 5 stacks (at tier 4, of course) I do occasionally drop to 3 stacks for brief times. It is possible that those occasions are long enough to catapult Radial higher, which is why I am interested in Reppu's specific testing. Most of my testing was with Fire Blast and Katana, so I had pretty quick animations, which might make a difference in maintaining +damage stacks.
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Originally Posted by Diellan_
I haven't delved into it much yet, but I'd guess that part of the difference is the fact that Radial uses PPM and Core is a straight percentage, so high end builds with a lot of recharge can milk the PPM imbalance really easy.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
It also seems worth bearing in mind that the radial version may or may not suffer from the upcoming PPM changes while the core version certainly oughtn't.
If Strato's sample is accurate, it seems that Radial is WAI. Quick acting/recharge and AOE's have a lesser chance to proc then single target, longer recharge (and likely longer animating) ST attacks.
If Core is the same then High AT mods with longish animating ST attacks will likely fair well with Core. Example: a scrapper with Broad Sword. At some point there is going to be a break even point just like Reactive Interface where the animation length may interfere with application duration - how long is the stacking window? Do we know?
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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I did testing on Beta and on Live last night with various Hybrid powers on my Crab pet build. When it comes to pets and Hybrid, according to Hawk via PMs Assault and Control ARE supposed to pass on to pets.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
So does Assault get passed onto MM pets?
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- Assault: Pets do receive the benefit BUT they must be summoned WHILE you have the Hybrid toggle on. If pets are summoned without the toggle and then you turn the toggle on, they will not be affected. Also, the damage stack on each pet is bugged at 34% dmg buff (+170% dmg at 5 stack!) making them capable of reaching damage cap pretty easily. With radial they do double hit but it's still up in the air for me which is better as I can't make an accurate comparison with Core version being bugged/overpowered. So for now Core far exceeds Radial.
- Control: Pets do not receive the benefit because... well I dunno why. Hawk was well aware of this and said that all Hybrid powers except for Melee should work properly when Live hits. The conversation I keep referencing was from about 6 weeks ago. I'm not sure if they changed their mind or they just haven't visited fixing this bug. My money is on the latter.
- Support: Support Core is supposed to give 12% buff but only does so to pets, player characters receive 6%. On radial, player characters and pets both receive 8%, so pets dont get the bonus. My guess is that this bug has to do with the aspect of Pets receiving double the buff so either way it's still buggy after being reported long ago.
- Melee: Pets are not supposed to be affected by this Hybrid.
So as and MM or any pet heavy class, your best bet right now is Assault Core. When/If it's fixed, Radial's doublehit may be better but I'm still not 100% sure on that. When/If Support Core is fixed, the double buff of 24% on pets will be pretty tempting for survivability. 24% defense stacked on top of IO auras and Leadership buffs will make some tough pets.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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What about for a combo like Plant/Storm? It has a combination of damage delivery styles that are (mostly) tied to DoTs: Creeper Patches that attack individually and continuously for an accumulation of low damage; Tornado (a pet) and Freezing Rain (both which may follow the 10sec rule); Lightning Storm (pseudo pet); the regular DoTs found in the primary attacks (and Fly Trap) and low damage powers like Gale.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Given the significantly lower chances to trigger that these have, with lower stack limits for the +damage portion, I would expect them to be inferior to the Embodiment (T4) versions no matter what.
It's not clear to me which is better from a purely Graft (T3) perspective. The chances for the bonus from the "other side" of the tree (i.e.: the damage bonus for the Partial Radial Graft) seem pretty low. |
Or like Fire/; having patches, damage auras, multiple pets, low damage powers, etc.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
IIRC, 15 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Kractis_Sky
At some point there is going to be a break even point just like Reactive Interface where the animation length may interfere with application duration - how long is the stacking window? Do we know?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
This may annoy some, but I am going to guess that there will be changes to some of the Hybrids down the line. There was really not going to be enough testing in beta in order to truly find everything (much like Interface had some issues that had to be adjusted later). The changes will just be in details as they all seem to work in a decent way, but after being live for awhile there will finally be enough data to assess their impact and see how close to whatever targets the devs have each tree hits. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
What about
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There may also be corner case issues that were missed (or were caught and just not able to be fixed before release). Hybrid is very complex and varied, while many issues were found and fixed pre-release, I expect we will find some on live.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm thinking that my tanks and brutes will go melee but as I look at my ss/fire farmer that is already extremely efficient.....I can't help but wonder how much more lethal he'd be with Assault.......question is should it be multi hit or the stacking damage?
Ok double hit says it is based off the BASE DAMAGE of a power. What exactly is the base damage?
Take KO blow on a brute which does approx 150 damage. Does this mean the base is 200 damage?
So essentially if you had 600% damage buff your KO blow would do 900 damage + 200 double hit damage?
Does double hit go up at all with damage increases?
Ultimately, for a damage cap brute it would only equate to a 15-20% dps increase correct?
Trying to min max my options here comparing to like melee tree for defense.