Confused by double hit. How does it work?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 18:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I do not believe this is true. My testing indicates that Core is almost always better for most characters with a damage mod of 1 or higher. I am really baffled how you managed to get more mileage out of Radial on a scrapper. What was the attack chain used?
Corruptors are lower than mod 1 and could be better off with Radial, BUT, Scourge makes it tricky, IMO. All of the bonus damage you get from Core is doubled with Scourge. None of the bonus damage from double-hit is affected by Scourge. And outside of scourge, Core is not too far below double-hit. Depending on what content you primarily play, it may be worth getting a slightly smaller bonus on regular spawns in order to get that really juicy power against tough opponents. |
Titan Weapons: Rend Armor > Follow Through > Crushing Blow > Arc of Destruction > Follow Through
Add on a another Crushing Blow + Whirling Smash if I used Build Momentum.
Consistently superior damage with Double Hit.
Might be due to the fact Titan Weapons base animation times are slow as sin? Either way, it was a GLORIOUS display of chain procs.
TW may be using the non-momentum activation times to calculate proc rates. I don't know if anyone has checked that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It does. Titan Weapons does not factor in Momentum Speeds for anything.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
TW may be using the non-momentum activation times to calculate proc rates. I don't know if anyone has checked that.
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It's not necessarily the animations so much as the recharge times, I'd guess. Only one power in the chain you named has a recharge under 10 seconds. Doublehit disproportionately favors slower powers, since both the proc rate AND the proc damage are proportional to recharge time.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Might be due to the fact Titan Weapons base animation times are slow as sin? Either way, it was a GLORIOUS display of chain procs.
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TW is rather abnormal in having very few fast-recharging attacks, but sets like, say, most blast sets, or Katana, or quite a few others that make extensive use of attacks with <10s recharge may not see nearly the same returns from Radial.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
- Assault: Pets do receive the benefit BUT they must be summoned WHILE you have the Hybrid toggle on. If pets are summoned without the toggle and then you turn the toggle on, they will not be affected. Also, the damage stack on each pet is bugged at 34% dmg buff (+170% dmg at 5 stack!) making them capable of reaching damage cap pretty easily. With radial they do double hit but it's still up in the air for me which is better as I can't make an accurate comparison with Core version being bugged/overpowered. So for now Core far exceeds Radial.
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Would it be safe to assume that illusion's Phantom Army and Phantasm would benefit in the same manner as MM pets? And does the passive +dmg also affect pets as well?
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Personally I am just unlocking it and waiting for them to fix the pet issues before I make a move. When it comes to pets they just have a poor record of fixing things because it just simple does not affect that many players personally or has limited affect. |
Originally Posted by Kyriani
Would it be safe to assume that illusion's Phantom Army and Phantasm would benefit in the same manner as MM pets? And does the passive +dmg also affect pets as well?
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I have 5 masterminds and numerous other pet classes so picking the wrong initial slot is just P.I.T.A. if its not working as expected. I don't mind reslotting or having other choices to pick from as back ups for different iTrials, like Clarion for U.G. but I hate having to farm the resources to reslott this stuff because the incarnate slot is broken.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Minor insight: On my Fire/Shield Scrapper, I have both the core graft and radial grafts (T3's). I've notice on lower hp targets that the radial helps more since more of its damage is front loaded. For a single hard target core seemed a little better but took a while to ramp-up due to stacking. Radial also provided more predictable performance. No numbers to post yet. Another note: on trials and "high-end" teams that have a lot of buffs, radial's double hit also was helpful since I hit cap a lot. YMMV. Core seemed to function like chance-to-hit fury: stacking buff on you that you have to keep attacking to maintain. it is powerful. I dont know if i like chasing it. Think of power siphon.
Anyone know numbers on +def for support? May use that on a tank that has plenty of dam rez and regen.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
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Yes, non-controllable pets should benefit from the Assault boost. They do not receive the passive damage boost, only the dmg stacks. The pets must be summoned while Assault is toggled on for pets to receive the bonus. Hawk has acknowledged that as something they would like to fix, along with Control Hybrid eventually granted to pets also, but this has not been implemented.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Would it be safe to assume that illusion's Phantom Army and Phantasm would benefit in the same manner as MM pets? And does the passive +dmg also affect pets as well?
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Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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Ok so the passive +dmg doesn't apply to the pets, but they can stack the +dmg buff on themselves, even Phantom Army (normally not buffable from outside sources but can be buffed by it's own abilities such as the pet build up purple IO.). |
Originally Posted by blueruckus
Yes, non-controllable pets should benefit from the Assault boost. They do not receive the passive damage boost, only the dmg stacks. The pets must be summoned while Assault is toggled on for pets to receive the bonus. Hawk has acknowledged that as something they would like to fix, along with Control Hybrid eventually granted to pets also, but this has not been implemented.
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The question is will double-hit or the stacking damage buff be the better choice? I understand right now pets are getting a higher modifier from the buff and that might be changed in the future. I'm also wondering if the energy damage from the double-hit might be the better way to go in the case of illusory damage vs real damage. I know only unenhanced damage heals back but I fairly confident double hit doesn't have any heal back either. I am trying to decide which would be the better route to go with a future nerf to the pet stacking buff in mind.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Doesn't it seem highly unlikely they will let this stand? I mean, they may for a while, but ultimately it will get "fixed" like Enyzmes etc. With the chain you posted my TW/SR already was doing like 350dps and taking pylons down crazy-fast. If I add Double-hit procs per your description it likely will make heads explode.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
It does. Titan Weapons does not factor in Momentum Speeds for anything.
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According to the formula UberGuy posted, animation time doesn't affect doublehit damage at all, only recharge time does. It would affect proc chance, since PPM procs are based on total cycle time (recharge + activation), but not by much, and attacks with recharge >=10s (which is 4/5 of Reppu's attack chain) have a 100% proc chance anyway (and the 5th attack would have a 92% proc chance even if the Momentum speed were used).|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Doesn't it seem highly unlikely they will let this stand?
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The i24 PPM changes will make animation time matter more, but not by much. Animation time is a relatively small part of cycle time.
So, in short... since it has barely any effect at all, it does seem pretty likely they will let it stand. What might change, though, is letting doublehit double-dip on recharge, disproportionately favoring slower power sets like TW.
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Because Stalkers beat you anyway and they don't even get Titan Weapons?|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Doesn't it seem highly unlikely they will let this stand? I mean, they may for a while, but ultimately it will get "fixed" like Enyzmes etc. With the chain you posted my TW/SR already was doing like 350dps and taking pylons down crazy-fast. If I add Double-hit procs per your description it likely will make heads explode.
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Also Crab Spiders do it in a fraction of that time.
And Illusion Controllers.
Regardless, with Musculature Tier 4, Double Hit Tier 4, and Reactive Radial Tier 4, I can mow down pylons in around 2:10-2:20 depending on how nice misses/crits are. Shrug.
411 or some such DPS.
And no. It's too late to nerf Titan Weapons now. Set needs IOs to sustain itself anyway, or a crap ton of outside buffs. Stand alone, with IOs, or during the level process? It's a rough sell.
Reap. Sow. etc.
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Miracles, dawg. I think it uses magnets.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Confused by double hit. How does it work?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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The cycle times definitely are keeping the proc rate high (pretty much 100% across the board as Hopeling noted) and the high base recharge powers keep the bonus damage of double-hit high. That said, if you could maintain the stacks of Core, it should still be better (maybe, I haven't really checked how awesome double-hit gets at the 16 second and 20 second recharges). |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Titan Weapons: Rend Armor > Follow Through > Crushing Blow > Arc of Destruction > Follow Through
Add on a another Crushing Blow + Whirling Smash if I used Build Momentum. Consistently superior damage with Double Hit. |
This leads me to believe maintaining stacks of Core could be an issue, although it may be particular to TW or even to your specific chain.
Cool info, thanks.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I don't like the idea of Core being Always Better Forever, anyway. I am happy to see Radial being superior in some aspects, although I'd prefer they were 'even'.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The cycle times definitely are keeping the proc rate high (pretty much 100% across the board as Hopeling noted) and the high base recharge powers keep the bonus damage of double-hit high. That said, if you could maintain the stacks of Core, it should still be better (maybe, I haven't really checked how awesome double-hit gets at the 16 second and 20 second recharges).
This leads me to believe maintaining stacks of Core could be an issue, although it may be particular to TW or even to your specific chain. Cool info, thanks. |
Either way, the tests don't lie. The Core test, even with keeping the stacks rather consistent, was an inferior run to the Double Hit test.
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Right, your test definitely shows that Radial wins for your attack chain, but the question is whether that result can be extrapolated to all powersets. Since TW is unusual in ways that directly affect how much it benefits from doublehit, I'm not at all convinced it is representative. A Gloom-less SS brute might not do so well with doublehit, for example, since only two attacks in the set are really slow, and one of them (Foot Stomp) has an aoefactor of ~3 that penalizes its doublehit effectiveness twice (granted, the brute's lower damage scale might still make Radial more attractive than Core). A Dual Pistols character might also gain less benefit, since HoB is such a key power, but doublehit caps recharge at 20 seconds for its damage calculation (and caps it before applying the aoefactor penalty, which is quite large - 4.75 - for HoB).|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Either way, the tests don't lie. The Core test, even with keeping the stacks rather consistent, was an inferior run to the Double Hit test.
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Altogether, doublehit damage on HoB should be, according to the City of Data formula,
(0.8 * 20 + 1.8) * 2 * 107.09 / 10 / 4.75 * 0.4
= 32.1, regardless of AT.
Whereas +75% damage from Core adds ~130 to HoB with Incendiary Ammo for a Corruptor, more than four times as much. A Blaster would gain a yet larger benefit.
For Titan Weapons, yeah, Radial definitely wins. For other sets with mostly long-recharge attacks, too. But that's not every set, and double-dipping on the aoefactor penalty might mean Radial generally loses for AoE powers. Needs more testing.
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Never claimed it was, but I could have been more specific.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
Right, your test definitely shows that Radial wins for your attack chain, but the question is whether that result can be extrapolated to all powersets. Since TW is unusual in ways that directly affect how much it benefits from doublehit, I'm not at all convinced it is representative. A Gloom-less SS brute might not do so well with doublehit, for example, since only two attacks in the set are really slow, and one of them (Foot Stomp) has an aoefactor of ~3 that penalizes its doublehit effectiveness twice (granted, the brute's lower damage scale might still make Radial more attractive than Core). A Dual Pistols character might also gain less benefit, since HoB is such a key power, but doublehit caps recharge at 20 seconds for its damage calculation (and caps it before applying the aoefactor penalty, which is quite large - 4.75 - for HoB).
Altogether, doublehit damage on HoB should be, according to the City of Data formula, (0.8 * 20 + 1.8) * 2 * 107.09 / 10 / 4.75 * 0.4 = 32.1, regardless of AT. Whereas +75% damage from Core adds ~130 to HoB with Incendiary Ammo for a Corruptor, more than four times as much. A Blaster would gain a yet larger benefit. For Titan Weapons, yeah, Radial definitely wins. For other sets with mostly long-recharge attacks, too. But that's not every set, and double-dipping on the aoefactor penalty might mean Radial generally loses for AoE powers. Needs more testing. |
Ah, I thought that was what you were claiming back in post #7, my bad. Well, anyway, it gave me a reason to play with the numbers and get a feel for how it works, and hopefully that will be useful for someone else following the thread.
Ok, so in the case of my FA/EM/PM tanker, I have lots of slow recharging AOE and single target attacks and a low damage mod, which indicates Radial.
But, I have Fiery Embrace and some DoT which benefit more from Core (I think). And my biggest sticking point is finishing off the few hard targets after my AOE's have nuked the minions and the wimpier Lieutenants and Buildup and Fiery Embrace are recharging--and AV's take forever.
So... Core would be best for that toon? Am I right about that?
Also, I assume neither tree affects Judgement, right?
Thanks!
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I would think that is right. Certainly FE only benefits from Core, but I also expect that Energy Transfer, because it's damage is a lot higher than it should be based on it's cooldown, is better with core.|
Originally Posted by herotoonefan
Ok, so in the case of my FA/EM/PM tanker, I have lots of slow recharging AOE and single target attacks and a low damage mod, which indicates Radial.
But, I have Fiery Embrace and some DoT which benefit more from Core (I think). And my biggest sticking point is finishing off the few hard targets after my AOE's have nuked the minions and the wimpier Lieutenants and Buildup and Fiery Embrace are recharging--and AV's take forever. So... Core would be best for that toon? Am I right about that? Also, I assume neither tree affects Judgement, right? Thanks! |
But since Tanker-single target radial is currently bugged anyway, it's no contest - go core.
I really should do something about this signature.
This might be helpful to anyone having trouble with the new power.
First here is a simplified formula for the damage of the T4 Radial
Single Target damage to one decimal
Damage= Recharge*6.9+15.5
Expected Damage = Chance of * Damage
Damage =Ceiling((Recharge/10),1)*Damage
Below is a table summarizing the effects. The AoE damage lists are expected damage.
Code:
Recharge Damage Chance Of Expectd Dps ST 10 ft AOE 15 foot 20 foot 25 foot
1 22.4 0.1 2.2 0.4 0.2 0.1 0.1
2 29.3 0.2 5.9 0.9 0.6 0.4 0.3
3 36.2 0.3 10.9 1.7 1.0 0.7 0.5
4 43.1 0.4 17.2 2.8 1.6 1.1 0.8
5 50.0 0.5 25.0 4.0 2.4 1.6 1.1
6 56.9 0.6 34.1 5.5 3.2 2.1 1.5
7 63.8 0.7 44.7 7.1 4.2 2.8 2.0
8 70.7 0.8 56.6 9.0 5.4 3.5 2.5
9 77.6 0.9 69.8 11.2 6.6 4.4 3.1
10 84.5 1.0 84.5 13.5 8.0 5.3 3.7
11 91.4 1.0 91.4 16.1 9.5 6.3 4.5
12 98.3 1.0 98.3 18.9 11.2 7.4 5.2
13 105.2 1.0 105.2 21.9 12.9 8.5 6.1
14 112.1 1.0 112.1 25.1 14.9 9.8 7.0
15 119.0 1.0 119.0 28.6 16.9 11.2 7.9
16 125.9 1.0 125.9 32.2 19.1 12.6 8.9
17 132.8 1.0 132.8 36.1 21.4 14.1 10.0
18 139.7 1.0 139.7 40.2 23.8 15.7 11.1
19 146.6 1.0 146.6 44.6 26.4 17.4 12.3
20 153.5 1.0 153.5 49.1 29.1 19.2 13.6
For the AoE attacks you need to modify the damage by the AoE factor and the probability of the hit by the same
Ok, I read on another thread that Radial includes and just front-loads damage from DoT. If that's true, that could change things for me, because that means that the only big advantage Core has is driving up Fiery Embrace by driving my damage bonus up. I don't mind fury-like powers that much, but it'd be nice to have my extra damage there even if I'm not throwing attacks as fast as I can.
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Radial doesn't do anything with actual power damage. Consider Gloom for example. This power does damage based on the developers' internal damage formulae. It just happens to be DoT. Radial does damage based on the formula above, which is somewhat similar to the internal formulae. However, Radial is always applied in a single chunk.|
Originally Posted by herotoonefan
Ok, I read on another thread that Radial includes and just front-loads damage from DoT.
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| If that's true, that could change things for me, because that means that the only big advantage Core has is driving up Fiery Embrace by driving my damage bonus up. I don't mind fury-like powers that much, but it'd be nice to have my extra damage there even if I'm not throwing attacks as fast as I can. |
I really should do something about this signature.
I was following this thread with interest as I have a KM/FA Scrapper that I took Assault on. I've been pretty underwhelmed so far as I took the T3 double-hit and see little difference, If I understand all the numbers (which at this point are making me go @.@)... then I should build for the T4 Core... because of the slower recharge on the KM?
Right? /confused
SS/Fire farming, likely also involves using reds, so +dam is not very useful to someone at or near the cap; double-hit for the win (if you want more damage).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.