Confused by double hit. How does it work?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 18:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Chances are that it will get destroyed with the upcoming PPM nerfs in I24 so high damage modifier ATs should probably avoid taking the doublehit route to t4
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But even at 100% proc rate for doublehit, Core should be better on high damage mod ATs. If it is not, it needs to be addressed. My tests do show that while I can almost constantly keep 5 stacks (at tier 4, of course) I do occasionally drop to 3 stacks for brief times. It is possible that those occasions are long enough to catapult Radial higher, which is why I am interested in Reppu's specific testing. Most of my testing was with Fire Blast and Katana, so I had pretty quick animations, which might make a difference in maintaining +damage stacks.
|
It also depends on how many damage buffs you have and how close to the cap you are. +DMG naturally diminishes in value somewhat the more of it you already have.
(don't forget to include the ~95% from enhancements unless you're using totally unenhanced powers!)
Quote:
He was saying high damage modifier ATs would likely be better with Core anyway.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
Chances are that it will get destroyed with the upcoming PPM nerfs in I24 so high damage modifier ATs should probably avoid taking the doublehit route to t4
|
In any case, it's not going to "get destroyed". Assuming it changes (and I do assume it will), it will proc less often, based on the slotted recharge of the power. This will not affect the damage scale unless they explicitly choose for it to. I do not believe they will make the damage scale a function of slotted recharge, because making the proc damage a function of base recharge is what makes doublehit's damage be scaling fraction of a power's damage. It's not perfect, because all powers' damage doesn't follow the rule for this exactly, but if you know a power's recharge and AoE parameters (where appropriate), you should be able to calculate its damage. That's basically what Doublehit is doing by making damage a function of recharge time.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I have made a spreadsheet to compare Core vs Radial:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Gw4X2t4VzNvQUE
I put in Titan Weapons (with Scrapper numbers), and as long as I've set the math up right, Core appears to be significantly ahead of Radial at 5 stacks. However, I have no testing to back this up, and I'm not sure if having 5 stacks all the time is close to realistic. Thoughts?
Feel free to download a copy of the spreadsheet for your own use, too.
Also interesting to note on Core: With my FM/Shield scrapper - if i do an aoe attack, it checks on each foe in range, so I can get multiple stacks in one AoE if Im lucky. Not sure this is WAI, though.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Quote:
I would. You would essentially have two Power Siphons. Note that Hybrid has a 65% (not 100% - as long as you hit) chance to buff you for 5 stacks of 15% plus a base 10% to your base damage.
|
Originally Posted by Bright_Tempest
I was following this thread with interest as I have a KM/FA Scrapper that I took Assault on. I've been pretty underwhelmed so far as I took the T3 double-hit and see little difference, If I understand all the numbers (which at this point are making me go @.@)... then I should build for the T4 Core... because of the slower recharge on the KM?
Right? /confused |
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Quote:
Thanks for this. I downloaded a local copy to play with and plugged in my single-target Ice Blast attacks for a Corruptor. It looks like Corruptors are probably just below the break-even point where Core is better if you have a better damage scale and Radial is better if you have worse. Corruptor Ice Bolt gets more added average damage from Core, but Ice Blast and Bitter Ice Blast both get more from Radial. Given my single-target attack chain is Bolt, Blast, Bolt,BIB,repeat, I gain quite a lot more damage per cycle from Radial on the two larger attacks than I lose on two casts of Ice Bolt, so Radial wins handily.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
I have made a spreadsheet to compare Core vs Radial
|
I also mucked around with the calculations to add in Synapse's proposed I24 PPM mechanics for Radial, just to see what it did. It caused Ice Bolt to be a bit worse with Radial and Ice Blast to be about the same between the two branches. Radial remained superior for BIB. (That's with 90+% recharge slotted in both Ice Blast and BIB.) Under those conditions, and given my attack chain, Core and Radial are almost equal in DPS contribution, with Core being slightly better.
I think that I expect Core to work better with Ice Storm, and I don't want to have to build a new Assault come I24, I'll probably just go the Core route now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Cool! Could you post your PPM adjusted one for us like Hopeling did--that'd be awesome!
FWIW the new Mids build published today also does doublehit calculations when you have Radial toggled on. The total damage shown should take both the doublehit and the (I23-style) PPM rate for the power into consideration.
Removed because of bug found in Mid's code, thanks Codewalker for the tip!
I've taken this down because without reading the whole thread I don't want people to just see the numbers and go with that.
Figures that right after I post that a bug is discovered. That's how it goes I guess. 
Doublehit should be working right as far as I know, but the stacks from Core aren't being calculated correctly.
I posted a workaround here.
Quote:
I'll look into it. I only have a Google account due to having an Android phone - I never use it for stuff like Google Docs (or Gmail). If I can get at Docs using my existing account, I'll toss it up there.|
Originally Posted by herotoonefan
Cool! Could you post your PPM adjusted one for us like Hopeling did--that'd be awesome!
|
If that is challenging for some reason, I'll find a place to host the raw excel.
It might not be till Friday night, though.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Changing the spreadsheet for i24 should actually be super easy - just type in the enhanced recharge rather than the base recharge, and change the PPM value to 7.5 instead of 6. Well, unless I am forgetting another part of the changes; haven't read through that thread in a while.
Quote:
I tried that, and doing it that way breaks the calculation for the Radial side's damage.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Changing the spreadsheet for i24 should actually be super easy - just type in the enhanced recharge rather than the base recharge, and change the PPM value to 7.5 instead of 6. Well, unless I am forgetting another part of the changes; haven't read through that thread in a while.
|
Because of that, I actually added a column for slotted recharge and changed the proc chance calculation (only) to account for it. Then, because I wanted to be able to compare I24 and I23 versions more easily, I added a "toggle" field to let me turn "I24 mode" on and off. If it's off it ignores the slotted recharge and uses the PPM rate you entered, and if it's on it uses slotted recharge times and multiplies the PPM by 1.25 in the proc chance calculations.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Oh, yeah, you're right.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I tried that, and doing it that way breaks the calculation for the Radial side's damage.
|
I wanted an i24 spreadsheet myself, and didn't want to wait until Friday, so I made my own version. As before, green is for entering power data, yellow is for entering Hybrid power parameters, red is where calculations happen and should not be altered unless you know what you're doing.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...VVUd2drSGhkRlE
Edit: ack, googledocs ate the checkbox. Just type in "TRUE" for i24 mode and "FALSE" for i23 mode.
Has anyone tried radial on a petless MM yet? No reason, just curious.
I really should do something about this signature.
Man, I always have a question.
Ok, the spreadsheet says "slotted recharge"--does that mean the attacks recharge only including recharge reduction that is actually slotted in the power--not global--or does my global recharge count too? I have two different values--the recharge time I get from looking at the detailed info on the power, which is just counting slotted recharge reduction, and the value from mids taking global recharge into account. Which do I use?
I'm going to go ahead and put in the "slotted only" recharge, not including my global bonuses, but let me know if that's wrong.
Thanks for all of this, btw, SOOOOOOOOO helpful!
Quote:
Success!|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Oh, yeah, you're right.
I wanted an i24 spreadsheet myself, and didn't want to wait until Friday, so I made my own version. |
>.>
I mean, thanks!
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
For I24 PPM calculation purposes, only the +recharge from what you have slotted in the power matters. Global recharge doesn't matter.|
Originally Posted by herotoonefan
Man, I always have a question.
Ok, the spreadsheet says "slotted recharge"--does that mean the attacks recharge only including recharge reduction that is actually slotted in the power--not global--or does my global recharge count too? |
Quote:
| I have two different values--the recharge time I get from looking at the detailed info on the power, which is just counting slotted recharge reduction, and the value from mids taking global recharge into account. Which do I use? |
There's one caveat - Alpha Slots that enhance recharge are more complicated. The part of such Alphas that does not ignore ED counts for I24 PPM purposes. I think the simplest way to get that number is to take the listed total and subtract the amount of Alpha benefit that you know ignores ED.
For example, let's say you have two 54+4 Common Recharge IOs slotted in something. That should show as around 95.3% recharge after ED. If you also have Spiritual Core Paragon slotted, that's 45% more recharge, 2/3 of which ignores ED. My Mids shows the final slotted recharge after ED as about 127.5%. 2/3 of 45% is 30%, so subtract 30% from 127.5% to get 97.5%. That's the number to use in the "slotted recharge" column.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Wow, that... that nuked it.
Radial isn't even close to Core now on that build. This will be a pretty significant nerf to Radial, at least on some builds.
Too bad :/. I like the way Radial works better for my playstyle--I'm not prone to scrapperlock and don't really enjoy fury chasing--but after this PPM change comes out I'd be giving up lots of damage by going with Radial 
.
Well, enjoy the glory days of Radial while you can :P!
Quote:
Uh huh.
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Never claimed it was, but I could have been more specific.
|
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
I was getting pretty weak double hit damage from T3 Assault Radial on my Claws/SR brute. Is that because the recharge times of claws attacks are really low? See below. Follow-up was actually generating more double hit damage than either Focus or Slash (where double-hit was like 50% of purple proc damage).|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It's not necessarily the animations so much as the recharge times, I'd guess. Only one power in the chain you named has a recharge under 10 seconds. Doublehit disproportionately favors slower powers, since both the proc rate AND the proc damage are proportional to recharge time.
TW is rather abnormal in having very few fast-recharging attacks, but sets like, say, most blast sets, or Katana, or quite a few others that make extensive use of attacks with <10s recharge may not see nearly the same returns from Radial. |
Your Doublehit hits for 73.24 points of Energy damage!
Your Follow Up attack cuts Rikti Pylon for 161.91 points of lethal damage! Your next few attacks are now more deadly!
Your Doublehit hits for 52.68 points of Energy damage!
Your Focus strikes Rikti Pylon for 322.4 points of lethal damage!
Your Doublehit hits for 44.45 points of Energy damage!
You blast Rikti Pylon for 107.08 points of bonus negative energy damage!
You Slash Rikti Pylon for 159.68 points of lethal damage and reduce their Defense!
You finish up with your Slash for 159.68 points of lethal damage!
Your Doublehit hits for 73.24 points of Energy damage!
Your Follow Up attack cuts Rikti Pylon for 161.91 points of lethal damage! Your next few attacks are now more deadly!
Your Doublehit hits for 53.73 points of Energy damage!
Your Focus strikes Rikti Pylon for 325.95 points of lethal damage!
Your Doublehit hits for 44.45 points of Energy damage!
You Slash Rikti Pylon for 159.68 points of lethal damage and reduce their Defense!
You finish up with your Slash for 159.68 points of lethal damage!
Quote:
Yes. Doublehit damage is proportional to power cycle time (presently with no enhancement). The lower the cycle time of your power, the less damage it will do (in addition to being less likely to activate).|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
I was getting pretty weak double hit damage from T3 Assault Radial on my Claws/SR brute. Is that because the recharge times of claws attacks are really low?
|
For powersets dominated by fast cycling powers, Core is likely the better choice.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I am not sure that is true. Fast cycling powers also have lower base damage so Core is smaller as well (although it does become easier to maintain stacks for Core).
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
For powersets dominated by fast cycling powers, Core is likely the better choice.
|
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Actually, the longer the recharge+activation, the better Radial is.
You want fast activating/recharging attacks (and a high base AT damage scale) to get the most bang out of the Core side.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA