Confused by double hit. How does it work?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 18:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I think it's an implementation detail. I suspect they wanted something that dealt a fixed fraction of the attack's base damage, but that the code that calculates the bonus damage probably has no way to determine, programatically what that base damage number actually is. After all, there actually doesn't seems to be such thing in attack powers as a single number for an attack's "base damage" - it would need a way to query the power definition and sum up all its damage affects.|
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
I'm not sure how intended that is, that a low damage power gets a heavy dmg bonus like this.
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If Assault Radial worked like Fiery Embrace, its damage could be tailored on a per-power basis. However, this has to be time intensive to maintain - Fiery Embrace's bonus damage is "hard-coded" in every power on every AT that can possibly use Fiery Embrace. Assault Radial isn't like that - it's defined as an Alpha Slot-like power that dynamically adds a proc-like effect to all damage-dealing powers on a character, without any foreknowledge of what damage those powers do.
So how to come up with a fraction of base damage with no foreknowledge? Well, for most powers there's a formula for that. Unfortunately, not all powers adhere to it, by accident or design. (Epic Pool versions of powerset attacks have longer recharge than the "core" power by design.) And it's those cases where this approximation breaks down.
Is that a problem worthy of hoping for eventual code fix/enhancement? I really don't know.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Do we know this? Because I don't see what about how Assault Radial works that would have made sense for a script to do. That sounds more like how they would manage Fiery Embrace. There's only one damage calulation defined for each variation of Assault Radial Embodiment in the Assault slot power tree, so I don't see where a script to modify powers would come into the picture. Well, not unless that script actually just modifed those Assault powers themselves, but that wouldn't allow per-attack tweaking.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I think they simply ran out of time to make it work perfectly as intended. A script was just run to add the damage based on recharge and area factor (thus why tanker attacks are mussed up thanks to gauntlet).
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's because it's not really a cut and paste job. It looks at the defined recharge time of the powers, and directly, dynamically calculates damage based on that.|
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
Claws in general is completely wrong. The cut/paste job they did doesn't account at all for the recharge discount that Claws has. The proc on almost every power, barring Follow Up and Shockwave, is doing much less damage than it should.
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The damage formula linked in the beginning if this thread isn't a design formula. It's the function that describes the actual "run-time" behavior of the "global proc" that Assault Core adds to every power. Given that run-time nature, it has no way to ever know about the recharge discount Claws powers have. It just calculates its damage on what the recharge actually is.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Hmmm. Good point. The calculation is likely occurring on the fly, which would mean they wouldn't be able to adjust it for individual powers. This could make fixing the tanker version much more difficult. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Do we know this? Because I don't see what about how Assault Radial works that would have made sense for a script to do. That sounds more like how they would manage Fiery Embrace. There's only one damage calulation defined for each variation of Assault Radial Embodiment in the Assault slot power tree, so I don't see where a script to modify powers would come into the picture. Well, not unless that script actually just modifed those Assault powers themselves, but that wouldn't allow per-attack tweaking.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
Have it look at a big table for all powers, with a "double hit fix factor". Most entries would be 1.0, but powers which don't follow the normal rules would have an adjustment value.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Hmmm. Good point. The calculation is likely occurring on the fly, which would mean they wouldn't be able to adjust it for individual powers. This could make fixing the tanker version much more difficult.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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It's funny that you said it isn't a 'design formula' when it actually contains the real design formula for determining the damage a power does. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's because it's not really a cut and paste job. It looks at the defined recharge time of the powers, and directly, dynamically calculates damage based on that.
The damage formula linked in the beginning if this thread isn't a design formula. It's the function that describes the actual "run-time" behavior of the "global proc" that Assault Core adds to every power. Given that run-time nature, it has no way to ever know about the recharge discount Claws powers have. It just calculates its damage on what the recharge actually is. |
I'm not so sure it's calculating this stuff on the fly, either. Well, calculating all of it, anyway. There's a lot of wonky stuff going on with the AoE modifier as it relates to that formula. Some modifiers are rounded down, others are ignored, others are perfectly fine. Some powersets exhibit all of these behaviors at once. The way that the AoE mod is "behaving" makes it feel like an inaccurate lookup table.
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Quote:
If that is the case, I would consider that to be fundamentally the same as adding this damage to each attack (each attack would, in essence, have its own double hit entry). I understand it might be technically a bit different than this information actually appearing on each power's sheet, but it would work the same way in the final result.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Have it look at a big table for all powers, with a "double hit fix factor". Most entries would be 1.0, but powers which don't follow the normal rules would have an adjustment value.
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Here's hoping each power has its own entry somehow.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
My method involves less copy-pasting in the database.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
What I am saying is that the forumla is not simply the guidance which is then turned into a fixed number. It's actually how it arrives at the number.|
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
It's funny that you said it isn't a 'design formula' when it actually contains the real design formula for determining the damage a power does.
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Quote:
| I'm not so sure it's calculating this stuff on the fly, either. Well, calculating all of it, anyway. There's a lot of wonky stuff going on with the AoE modifier as it relates to that formula. Some modifiers are rounded down, others are ignored, others are perfectly fine. Some powersets exhibit all of these behaviors at once. The way that the AoE mod is "behaving" makes it feel like an inaccurate lookup table. |
There is absolutely no question that the recharge factor is being calculated dynamically. It's using the PPM system, and that's what the PPM system does. In I24, they were planning on having it respond dynamically to global buffs like Speed Boost. There is no conceivable way for that to happen based on a table lookup. (Edit: They changed this plan, so it will only respond to enhanced recharge, but that remains dynamic. It just will change in practice less often.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
So that means this system is flawed and not in a small way. Although, if it is possible to fix it, then any fix would apply to both double hit and the PPM system, so that is a positive thing.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
There is absolutely no question that the recharge factor is being calculated dynamically. It's using the PPM system, and that's what the PPM system does. In I24, they were planning on having it respond dynamically to global buffs like Speed Boost. There is no conceivable way for that to happen based on a table lookup. (Edit: They changed this plan, so it will only respond to enhanced recharge, but that remains dynamic. It just will change in practice less often.)
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm fairly sure that the area factor is being calculated dynamically as well. That's based on the issue that PPM had with cone powers. According to Arcanaville, the root cause was that the formula was expecting the arc in degrees (how the devs write in the power definitions), but the number was being fed into it in radians (how the game represents it internally).
As for the odd issues doublehit is having on powers with seemingly identical parameters, I'd like to see if that can be reproduced on a powerset other than Titan Weapons. TW uses power redirect, and I'm a little suspicious of how PPM/doublehit interacts with that, since it's basically substituting in an entirely different power at the last second.
Tanker gauntlet should be an easy fix (yes, I know all about the standard code rant). Whatever is calculating the "areafactor" variable needs to take into account whether the power is flagged to proc on primary target only or not. I'm assuming that's the fix that was applied to PPM, though they might have a different way of detecting it. It briefly reverted when issue 23 was released, but I think it's been fixed again.
Cool to know. Given that area factor doesn't change (as far as I know?), it's interesting that it's dynamic. Who knows, though, maybe someday we'll get something like Titan Weapons that substitutes a wholly different power with different AoE factors dynamically.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Ranged cone attacks could have their areafactor change, if the calculation uses enhanced/buffed radius rather than base radius (I don't know if it actually does).|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Given that area factor doesn't change (as far as I know?), it's interesting that it's dynamic.
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Johnny_Butane tells me Gauntlet and Doublehit's interaction is working properly now, it was apparently silent-fixed at the end of beta, although now it seems to be maybe interacting somehow with Reactive ticks (or Interface ticks, or procs in general? /shrug). Some confirmation would be useful, though.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
As for the odd issues doublehit is having on powers with seemingly identical parameters, I'd like to see if that can be reproduced on a powerset other than Titan Weapons. TW uses power redirect, and I'm a little suspicious of how PPM/doublehit interacts with that, since it's basically substituting in an entirely different power at the last second.
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Quote:
Oh, duh. Yeah, and actually, the old cone "range" enhancers used to make them wider, didn't they? (That was ages ago.)|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
Ranged cone attacks could have their areafactor change, if the calculation uses enhanced/buffed radius rather than base radius (I don't know if it actually does).
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Given how the PPM system uses enhanced recharge, I'll be surprised if a dynamic area factor at least couldn't use enhanced range. If so, that saddens me a bit, since I have lots of characters with Cardiac and fairly large (10%) incidental range bonuses from Superior ATEs.
(Such modifiers really ought to account for max targets. A really large AoE is more likely to hit is max targets, but an 80' cone with, say, 16 target cap is probably not highly likely to hit more targets than a 60' cone with the same cap, but it is penalized for the full increase in area.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Actually, cone range boosted the range of cones as normal ranged enhancements boosted the range of everything else. Technically, cones with higher radius are "wider" at the base, but cone range didn't make the cones wider in the literal sense.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Oh, duh. Yeah, and actually, the old cone "range" enhancers used to make them wider, didn't they? (That was ages ago.)
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They also used to have a funny bug where they would increase the targeting range of the power but not the actual range of the power. So if you cone-slotted a 40' radius cone to 50', say, the game would let you target an enemy 50 feet away, activate the attack, and have it do nothing to the target because it was outside the cone's base 40' range. That was an annoying bug.
The devs finally decided that there was no good reason to have two different range enhancers that basically did the same thing and collapsed them into a single enhancer, much like endurance drain and endurance recovery enhancers.
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I never used to slot the things in the SO days, so I was fuzzy on what they did and thus what changed. But that sounds totally familiar now that you describe it. Thanks for that reminder/refresher.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Apologies, we agree. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
What I am saying is that the forumla is not simply the guidance which is then turned into a fixed number. It's actually how it arrives at the number.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Note that areafactor is not used in damage calculations of the powers themselves. If it really is a power attribute, it has to be specifically for reference in things like PPM calculations.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
There is absolutely no question that the recharge factor is being calculated dynamically. It's using the PPM system, and that's what the PPM system does. In I24, they were planning on having it respond dynamically to global buffs like Speed Boost. There is no conceivable way for that to happen based on a table lookup. (Edit: They changed this plan, so it will only respond to enhanced recharge, but that remains dynamic. It just will change in practice less often.)
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I do agree that the value of the proc isn't stored in a table somewhere and that this formula is running to determine what the proc does. I just can't figure out why the areafactor is so messed up and guessing that this particular value might be stored in a table was the only thing I can think of because then I can blame the errors on someone screwing the table up.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
The formula for the area factor is exactly what they use to adjust the damage of powers that aren't single target.
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I'm saying it's not used dynamically in attack damage scales. The values for attack damage scale are supposed to match this formula, but the game is not calculating the damage scale of attacks on the fly using this formula - that's done "by hand" and then those resulting numbers are stored in the AT look-up tables.This is in contrast to the the PPM system and Assault Radial, which both dynamically adjust proc rate (and damage for Assault) based on the actual AreaFactor of a power, be that stored "on" the power or calculated on the fly from its relevant AoE stats.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
lol, we're so caught up on the dynamic and lookup thing.
just to clarify my position:
Normal Attack Powers: two formulae are used to create power data that is stored in lookup tables.
Radial Proc Damage: two formulae are used to dynamically calculate proc damage.
Me: The formulae for base damage and areafactor used in both processes happen to be the same.
We cool? 
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Quote:
We are. I just wanted to make sure you got that I was saying PPM/Assault Radial are dynamic, and (supposedly) use the same formulas that (usually) determine the static values used in attacks.|
Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
Me: The formulae for base damage and areafactor used in both processes happen to be the same.
We cool? |
And it's because some of the static values actually deviate (sometimes strongly) from the formula that DoubleHit is sometimes crazy good in comparison.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I definitely get it. I just want them to come out and say one way or the other right now what their intention is for these edge cases. If they like it, fine; but if they don't, then I want to know now. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
And it's because some of the static values actually deviate (sometimes strongly) from the formula that DoubleHit is sometimes crazy good in comparison.
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Either way, it lets me know better how to complain about how this affects Claws.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
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Yeah, I can see very much how Claws' static design makes Assault Radial pretty consistently less good on Claws than it would be on almost any other powerset.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
It takes off about 5-10 points of damage on most attacks. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah, I can see very much how Claws' static design makes Assault Radial pretty consistently less good on Claws than it would be on almost any other powerset.
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But on Spin, it takes off around 30 points of damage.
Follow Up benefits greatly though. Its proc gets to do twice as much damage as the power itself.
I think the FU change alone means that the radial tree is a pretty significant ST damage buff.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
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Yeah, the effect on Follow Up is crazy. I was looking at it on a Night Widow, but still.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm willing to bet the Stalker, Brute and Arachnos versions are wrong too.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
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