Heartsick (*SPOILERS FOR BELLADONNA VETRANO*)
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2012-05-31 17:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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But we better build that republic quickly, what with the planet being evacuated and all...|
Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer
And for the record, in order to save Praetoria, we must first destroy it. We must destroy Cole's regime of the PAST to build the Praetorian REPUBLIC of the FUTURE!
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Or is that the new Republic of Hami?
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Especially something this silly - even after a pitched battle in Lambda Sector, a riot at the TPN campus, the loyalists almost sending the Keyes Island reactors into nuclear meltdown, Mother Mayhem mindwashing the entire world, plus Tyrant's actual nuking of Nova Praetoria, the battle to liberate Imperial City causing a few small fires is apparently somehow shockingly destructive |
Originally Posted by Kirsten
 It's always fun to watch people's reactions to new content. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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"Four spore and seven yeast ago....."
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Originally Posted by Funwrecker
But we better build that republic quickly, what with the planet being evacuated and all...
Or is that the new Republic of Hami? |
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While the damage shown in the pictures is very easily repaired (considering we're dealing with beings with superpowers and the like, as well as organizations equipped to handle that kind of thing), it's still not fun to see. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Especially something this silly - even after a pitched battle in Lambda Sector, a riot at the TPN campus, the loyalists almost sending the Keyes Island reactors into nuclear meltdown, Mother Mayhem mindwashing the entire world, plus Tyrant's actual nuking of Nova Praetoria, the battle to liberate Imperial City causing a few small fires is apparently somehow shockingly destructive
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Also, considering the aftermath of the Magisterium trial, I can't imagine that the rest of the city is faring too well. Yeah, Tyrant brought that fate to the city himself, not us, but seeing the war result in that much destruction is disheartening. I still make new toons in Praetoria anyway, though.
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applause
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Originally Posted by Scythus
"Four spore and seven yeast ago....."
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It's the symbolism that's shocking. Everything we're fighting for amounts to a city in flames with stacks of smoke rising into the air and citizens in panic. It's especially visible in the cut scene between Vetrano and Sinclair. Vetrano speaks of liberation and how the people can fare better on their own, while you see a city in flames and at war behind her. Meanwhile Sinclair talks of how the people can't be expected to make the right decisions and are making huge mistakes, and behind him you see a clean, pristine city with a shining sun and clear sky.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Especially something this silly - even after a pitched battle in Lambda Sector, a riot at the TPN campus, the loyalists almost sending the Keyes Island reactors into nuclear meltdown, Mother Mayhem mindwashing the entire world, plus Tyrant's actual nuking of Nova Praetoria, the battle to liberate Imperial City causing a few small fires is apparently somehow shockingly destructive
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It's more than a bit unsettling, and to me, made it feel like all we did was uproot and destroy a civilization.
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It wasn't a civilization. It was a prison.
| It's more than a bit unsettling, and to me, made it feel like all we did was uproot and destroy a civilization. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Foucault would argue they're more or less the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Venture
It wasn't a civilization. It was a prison.
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Missing your smiley there, GG.
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Originally Posted by Venture
It wasn't a civilization. It was a prison.
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I didn't see any citizens in panic - just a crowd that had turned out to cheer on the Resistance and the redeemed PPD as they prepared to storm the last lair of the loyalists in Imperial City.|
Originally Posted by Xzero45
It's the symbolism that's shocking. Everything we're fighting for amounts to a city in flames with stacks of smoke rising into the air and citizens in panic. It's especially visible in the cut scene between Vetrano and Sinclair. Vetrano speaks of liberation and how the people can fare better on their own, while you see a city in flames and at war behind her. Meanwhile Sinclair talks of how the people can't be expected to make the right decisions and are making huge mistakes, and behind him you see a clean, pristine city with a shining sun and clear sky.
It's more than a bit unsettling, and to me, made it feel like all we did was uproot and destroy a civilization. |
And the city is hardly "in flames" when the fires only take a couple of windows at the most on a single floor of the handful of buildings that have been damaged - it's hardly Blyde Square or Skyway City.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yeah, well, Foucault was just torqued off that he couldn't wear his bondage gear in public without getting stares.
| Foucault would argue they're more or less the same thing. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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And I've admitted that part of my reaction does boil down to the fact that I think that Skyway City is so ugly that, frankly, I think what Durray did to it qualifies as an improvement. Even after the Atlas Park revamp, Paragon City's architecture and urban planning remind me of everything I hate about late 20th, early 21st century American cities, with the added aesthetic offenses of all that Albert Speer-esque cyclopean statuary and immense policed concrete neighborhood walls. As Leslie Fish sings, "Down, down, tear it all down!"|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
... it's hardly Blyde Square or Skyway City.
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In the personal story after this arc, Marcus Cole puts his finger right on what really went wrong: he placed too much trust in Shalice Tillman, and she turned out to be (like just about every powerful psychic in canon) completely insane. Strip the Seer Network out of Praetoria City and I would move there from the real world in a heartbeat. And even with the Seer Network, I'd probably move there from Paragon City or the Rogue Isles.
Because Hamidon is right, you know. Even without mad scientists, we're running an unsustainable civilization right now on real Earth; to provide everybody on real Earth with a 21st century lifestyle would require 5 Earths' worth of resources. Throw into that the damage being done by superhero on supervillain battles, and the resources being used to rebuild after each one, and it really is a short sharp run downhill to the "Agony Hall" future that everybody who completes the Project Destiny story arcs sees: the ecosystem wrecked, the cities destroyed, no survivors but demons and robots and a handful of mutants. Whatever Praetoria's other flaws, it solved that problem.
Seriously, would you rather live in Skyway City than in Imperial City?
*shrug*
We're probably talking past each other at this point. I got what I needed to say off of my chest, I got some mildly memorable screenshots out of it (nobody else liked the screenshots?), and I've moved on. But I really did feel bad about the war, the first day or so of this issue. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
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The real world has had plenty of examples of what life is like in a totalitarian state that doesn't have telepaths or super-technology to spy on its citizens. If you'd rather live in such a state...you deserve to.
| Strip the Seer Network out of Praetoria City and I would move there from the real world in a heartbeat. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
What happens to Praetoria is sad. It's supposed to be. If you don't feel a sense of "Aw... Maybe we could have done something better..." then, well, I don't know what's wrong with you.
On the other hand, look at who was in charge of Praetoria. When you play Emperor Cole's mission at the end of the arc, you realize he was the ONLY person with a genuine desire to do what was right. He was the only one with good intentions.
They say the Road to Hell is paved with Good Intentions. I call bull on that. You need to inspect your building materials. The Road to Hell is probably planned with Good Intentions with a lack of Foresight, and there are more than enough Bad Intentions to make up the asphalt.
Emperor Cole built his Empire of Peace out of Nightmares and Paranoia. He took the most psychotic, deranged people and put them in power, all because they had the simple, easy answers to make the populace dim and docile. It would only have been a matter of time before it all ended in blood and fire, even without the Hamidon and Primal Earth's interference.
In all fairness, this was the most likely outcome. Be glad we were able to save who we could.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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So did the rest of the Praetors - it makes you wonder what exactly Tyrant thought he was doing by appointing psychopaths to every important position of power in his dictatorship, or how he didn't discover that they were all evil and remove them instea dof letting them all keep their jobs for as long as his evil empire lasted.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
she turned out to be (like just about every powerful psychic in canon) completely insane.
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| Strip the Seer Network out of Praetoria City and I would move there from the real world in a heartbeat. |
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| Seriously, would you rather live in Skyway City than in Imperial City? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I like how everyone forgets the BIG reason Tyrant had things like Enriche or the Seer Network in place. It wasn't just for kicks.
It was because it was his way of making sure Praetorian Hamidon didn't come bearing down on him like the fist of an angry god and completely wipe out the last remnants of Humanity. Yes, it's still ugly and nasty that Tyrant had thought-police and drug-filled water to pacify the citizens while his Praetors did their things, but what was the alternative?
Complete and utter extinction by a monster Tyrant himself, even as the Champion, was not utterly confident he could defeat.
In this sense, while the methods were deplorable, the intention was fine.
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What is the quote?|
Originally Posted by Issen
I like how everyone forgets the BIG reason Tyrant had things like Enriche or the Seer Network in place. It wasn't just for kicks.
It was because it was his way of making sure Praetorian Hamidon didn't come bearing down on him like the fist of an angry god and completely wipe out the last remnants of Humanity. Yes, it's still ugly and nasty that Tyrant had thought-police and drug-filled water to pacify the citizens while his Praetors did their things, but what was the alternative? Complete and utter extinction by a monster Tyrant himself, even as the Champion, was not utterly confident he could defeat. In this sense, while the methods were deplorable, the intention was fine. |
"I would rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees."
When we fight the Hamidon (as rarely as that is now, since Shards and Hamidon Enhancements are largely irrelevant nowadays), we take an army of meta humans against it. Cole went, by himself, to battle the thing.
Beating the Praetorian Hamidon into submission would have been taxing. It would have cost lives. Many lives.
But the world would have been free in the end.
Cole took the opportunity for the Final Stand and decided to instead try to placate the beast with docility. Praetoria sealed itself inside its sonic cage, the people happily oblivious to the threat they were truly under, distracted by the focus on the Resistance and the chaos of Primal Earth.
And the Hamidon grew and grew and grew... Eyeing that caged meal hungrily as it slowly grew under it, creeping ever closer to gulp it down...
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
I don't think I can respond fully to your criticisms of Praetoria without getting mod-smacked for bringing real world politics into it. But in game, I've served alongside both the Paragon PD, and Arachnos troops, and the Praetorian PD, and the Praetorian PD scare me less. They scare me a LOT less than Longbow, Wyvern, and Hero Corps do; in no sane civilization would what Longbow does for a living be legal.
Mass murder? Really? Of whom? If you're going to bring the ghouls into this, Praetor Berry didn't start in on the Olympian Guard super-soldier project, or the Goliath Warwalker project for that matter, until (and yes, this is canon, I checked with the dev team) their world was attacked by a timeline with 10 times as many supers in it; that's more our fault than the Praetors'. Brainwashing? The BAF is one of Praetor Tillman's projects, I've said that I won't defend her. Fascist outlook? Have you BEEN to Paragon City?
Drugged water ... I've been meaning to get around to pointing this out for at least a year now, thanks for reminding me. It has only been a hair over 15 years since ninety percent of the entire human race was killed in the Hamidon War, a planetary disaster bigger than what the great plagues did to the native Americans. Under those circumstances, part of me thinks that putting low dose anti-psychotics and anti-depressants in the drinking water is a brilliant solution, no more controversial than fluoridation. I wonder how much the dev team agrees with me; notice that within days of Calvin Scott's destruction of the Enriche facility, riots broke out all over the city. After a planetary disaster on the scale of the Hamidon War, I think it would take at least a generation to see even minimally sane human beings again.
Remember that the people of Praetorian Earth did vote for Cole. They begged him to take the job, repeatedly, after he'd turned it down. In a decimated world gone entirely mad with grief and rage, what alternative did they have? Let the warlords keep slugging it out until there wasn't anybody left?
And as for Skyway City, been there lately? The murder rate's a lot higher there than it is in even the worst parts of Praetoria City, probably even including the tunnels. No shock, given that it's canon that the Paragon City government is heavily infiltrated by Council and Family controlled politicians, and probably by the Circle of Thorns possessed and Crey cloned and Nemesis duplicated ones by now.
Praetoria City has the Praetors and the Powers Division, but is what Paragon City has any better? Is the FBSA really doing any better of a job policing Paragon City's supers than the Powers Division is? Because after 7 years in Paragon City, I'm just not seeing it. Heck, I think Arachnos does a better job of policing its supers than the FBSA does.
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oh, ya its too bad they already tried that in that thing called the hamidon wars where every super was almost wiped out
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Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
What is the quote?
"I would rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees." Beating the Praetorian Hamidon into submission would have been taxing. It would have cost lives. Many lives. But the world would have been free in the end. Cole took the opportunity for the Final Stand and decided to instead try to placate the beast with docility. Praetoria sealed itself inside its sonic cage, the people happily oblivious to the threat they were truly under, distracted by the focus on the Resistance and the chaos of Primal Earth. And the Hamidon grew and grew and grew... Eyeing that caged meal hungrily as it slowly grew under it, creeping ever closer to gulp it down... |
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That's the myth told after the people's minds were addled by Enriche.|
Originally Posted by G_Savior
oh, ya its too bad they already tried that in that thing called the hamidon wars where every super was almost wiped out
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The Destroyers, however, remember being there to help Marauder when "he alone, stood by Cole."
And goodness knows how many meta humans were killed by "friendly fire" (read: secret execution) before, during and after the war, all rolled into the combat in order to secure Emperor Cole's vision of a perfect world or to satisfy the egos of the people he brought into his circles of power.
The truth of the Hamidon Wars cannot be trusted because it's all a veil of history rather than the fact of it. Finally, it all boils down to one man's decision to die slowly and afraid in the gilded cage he built for himself and the people around him rather than stand and fight.
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
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I must have missed badges like this by the Paragon Police Department buildings: |
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
But in game, I've served alongside both the Paragon PD, and Arachnos troops, and the Praetorian PD, and the Praetorian PD scare me less.
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Secret Prisoner:
"You have found one of the most forbidden of places in Praetoria: the secret interrogation chamber beneath the PPD Precinct where the officers take the most recalcitrant prisoners for enhanced interrogations."
Disappeared:
"This is where enemies of the State vanish forever. These lost souls have been brought here from the PPD Headquarters for summary execution without review or recourse."
Silent Witness:
"You have seen much injustice and brutality in your journeys through Praetoria, and here beneath Precinct 4 in Imperial City you are witness to a chamber dedicated to both. Will you remain silent forever?"
Nailbiter:
"This PPD interrogation and holding area is littered with the signs of harsh treatment. Dried bodily fluids, ripped off fingernails, and a few human teeth mark this area as a place you don't want to wind up in."
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| Mass murder? Really? Of whom? |
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| If you're going to bring the ghouls into this, Praetor Berry didn't start in on the Olympian Guard super-soldier project, or the Goliath Warwalker project for that matter, until (and yes, this is canon, I checked with the dev team) their world was attacked by a timeline with 10 times as many supers in it; that's more our fault than the Praetors'. |
Did their thinking go "that world where democracy and free will are encouraged seems to be suspicious of our nightmare fascist world and have palced scanners to monitor us - we must enslave all of existence" - or was the idea of multi-dimensional conquest already in Tyrant's head?
After all, he is Praetorian Earth's greatest villain, according to the devs, and archvillains are pretty big on enslaving worlds.
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| The BAF is one of Praetor Tillman's projects, I've said that I won't defend her. |
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| Fascist outlook? Have you BEEN to Paragon City? |
They also seem to only put up statues to dead heroes, and not members of the government, and there's also a lack of any kind of personality cult around Statesman or Positron.
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| Drugged water ... I've been meaning to get around to pointing this out for at least a year now, thanks for reminding me. It has only been a hair over 15 years since ninety percent of the entire human race was killed in the Hamidon War, a planetary disaster bigger than what the great plagues did to the native Americans. Under those circumstances, part of me thinks that putting low dose anti-psychotics and anti-depressants in the drinking water is a brilliant solution, no more controversial than fluoridation. I wonder how much the dev team agrees with me |
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| notice that within days of Calvin Scott's destruction of the Enriche facility, riots broke out all over the city. After a planetary disaster on the scale of the Hamidon War, I think it would take at least a generation to see even minimally sane human beings again. |
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| Remember that the people of Praetorian Earth did vote for Cole. They begged him to take the job, repeatedly, after he'd turned it down. |
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| And as for Skyway City, been there lately? The murder rate's a lot higher there than it is in even the worst parts of Praetoria City, probably even including the tunnels. |
That was one of the many neat little visual touches in GR - they replaced the tradtional citizens in peril from ciminals zone mobs with citizens in peril from the dictatorship zone mobs - muggings were repalced by arrests for "interrogation", which was a great way of showing that there was no one to protect the people, as the biggest criminals in Praetoria were all wearing government uniforms.
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| Praetoria City has the Praetors and the Powers Division, but is what Paragon City has any better? Is the FBSA really doing any better of a job policing Paragon City's supers than the Powers Division is? |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Agreed. Corruption in Paragon City is completely out of control, and Primals claiming moral highground in this conflict is pure hypocrisy. Retaliation against an unprovoked assault, maybe, but even that's sketchy, considering Ultimatum, Malta, Longbow, Arachnos, Vanguard and the Freedom Phalanx had all been wreaking havoc in Praetoria long before Cole gave the order to invade Primal Earth.|
Originally Posted by InfamousBrad
Praetoria City has the Praetors and the Powers Division, but is what Paragon City has any better? Is the FBSA really doing any better of a job policing Paragon City's supers than the Powers Division is? Because after 7 years in Paragon City, I'm just not seeing it. Heck, I think Arachnos does a better job of policing its supers than the FBSA does.
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Now that all these interdimensional wars are over (against Praetoria, Axis and the Rikti), I'd very much like to see an effort to restore law and order to Paragon City and depose Lord Recluse in the Rogue Isles - if the Coming Storm doesn't mind waiting a few issues, that is.
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Battalion shows up in I25 |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Now that all these interdimensional wars are over (against Praetoria, Axis and the Rikti), I'd very much like to see an effort to restore law and order to Paragon City and depose Lord Recluse in the Rogue Isles - if the Coming Storm doesn't mind waiting a few issues, that is.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Tell them we're busy, come back later...
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Battalion shows up in I25
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It's always fun to watch people's reactions to new content.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.