Heartsick (*SPOILERS FOR BELLADONNA VETRANO*)

A crime was committed, helped on by the historically corrupt mayor of the time, and got shut down. Comic books were born in the 30s, the age of Prohibition and all that came with it, so dealing with corrupt politicians and mobsters and such is a staple.

And even now, yes, crime and corruption happens. Run the new Penny Yin TF for an example (two thumbs way up). There are people who break the law, among the high and mighty as well as the low and scrabbling. Heroes stop them. In Praetoria, it happened from the top and was at a minimum winked at if not outright encouraged.


Other than the part of targeting minorities - sounds a lot like Praetoria's Powers Unit, a core part of the control mechanisms in Praetoria. Except in our world, the streets were filled with protestors opposed to the Might For Right Act. In Praetoria, any protesters would be rounded and disappeared or "adjusted".

Yes, high officials in the Malta conspiracy had wormed their way into the CIA and risen to a high level. That doesn't make what they were doing government policy.

In many ways, Malta is one of the more interesting groups in the game. They have zero doubts they believe they are the good guys in the fight. And the comments you get from Crimson rip that view to shreds. In one of the DA arcs you work with Malta (definitely with the help of a Malta contact, and based on your choices) with Malta assistance.

Malta is an example of the same thinking that empowered Emperor Cole, and yes empowered Hitler. The risk to the people is so high that any action is acceptable to save them. (Post World War I Germany was bad - in addition to suffering from the worldwide depression, punitive reparations were crushing Germany.) Malta, though a powerful connected conspiracy, is only able to set plots in action through stealth and deceit. Hitler had an army to command. Cole got a whole world.

Is everything great in Primal Earth, is everyone in power utterly trustworthy, smart, and brave? Of course not, because a world like that wouldn't need heroes (and be pretty boring to play in). But the good fight continues here, there are those who fight to protect those without powers and consider themselves bound by the same laws that all men, women, aliens, and self-aware technical devices are held to.

Well, why don't we look to see what the Patch Notes say about it?

Gee. Looks like it is Incarnate Only content for those two.

Tin Mage is the WST beginning June 19. This week it is the 24-33 Respecs.

Don't ask the Wiki to update if an unlocked 50 can do it (unless they put in a note that there is a bug allowing unlocked 50's to run it), but definitely /bug it if an unlocked 50 can run it as that is counter to what is in the patch notes and what the Devs told us their plan for those two was.

So a corrupt corporation that was a front for a supervillain was discovered and dissolved. Doesn't sound like officially sanctioned corruption to me.
Except that you forgot to quote the part where the Might for Right Act was repealed.


You are seriously citing a Malta plot as evidence of government-sanctioned corruption? Seriously? Maybe you should go replay Indigo and Crimson's arcs again and remind yourself how Malta actually used to operate back when they were scary and not just a bunch of thugs with giant robots and sap guns.

It kinda does, when that corrupt corporation has the mayor in its pocket.

Irrelevant, the intention was there. Primals are just harder to oppress than Praetorians, I've never said otherwise.

Seriously.

That specific Malta plot was worse than anything Cole has ever done, basically implanting a remote bomb in every citizen in the country. That a high-ranking CIA agent was behind the plot means it's official, regardless of whatever plausible deniability the government might hide behind. And I do believe the head of the CIA had no knowledge of what was happening, just as I believe Cole didn't order Col. Duray to unleash Warworks against civilian targets in Skyway City, or that he was unaware (or had no proof) that Mother Mayhem was kidnapping psychics to satisfy her vampiric hunger instead of treating them.

Look, Eva, I'm not asking for the dismantling of Primal society. These examples were meant only as a reminder that corruption is universal. There's alot of good in Praetoria, things I wish we had in real (not Primal) Earth. After all, we're talking about a technologically advanced, ecologically stable society with limitless energy, clean water, free health-care and an automated clockwork force capable of handling every menial job you can think off. You don't throw that away because some crazy lady with psychic powers is brainwashing everyone around her - you arrest her.

Instead of that silly Rift mission once you run out of content in Neutropolis, had the game clarified the role of Powers Division post lvl 20, had them officially launch an investigation into Cole and his Praetors, culminating in undeniable proof of their guilt, had Powers Division *then* made contact with Primal Earth (Longbow, Vanguard and Arachnos) and requested their aid in arresting Cole... this whole i-Trial stuff would have made alot more sense.

The difference is that in Primal Earth, corruption is something that heroes fight and, if caught, the corrupt individuals get arrested and at locked up. In Praetoria, so long as they're keeping things quiet, you get your head patted.

Even if you want to claim Cole didn't know about what Tilman was doing, what the other Praetors were doing (which would require a remarkable level of blindness and stupidity), there was one law: Cole's. His power was absolute. If history has shown us anything, this is a BAD THING. Even if things are temporarily good on some measurements, it's going to go bad, and it's really really bad for some people (those who aren't willing to be happy drones serving the queen).

Except Powers Division is a creature of the government of Praetoria. The INSTANT anyone in Powers Division even thinks about investigating Cole and his Praetors, they are enemies of the state (what do you think the seers are there for). I know you say "Cole didn't know how crazy Tilman was" - but what did he think the goal of the seers was except to make bad thought a crime.

Yes, freedom is messy. Some people will misuse their freedom to do bad things, sometimes really bad things. Even in a group of reasonably well-intentioned people, there will be disagreements and friction. But freedom is intrinsic to the human creature. Praetoria would only work long term if it was ruled and populated by something other than humans (and I can't quite imagine what that something would be).

So yeah, Praetoria is pretty, and if you never go anywhere near the electric fences things are good. But the fences are there, they are deadly, and the open area will shrink every day.

Having recently finished the Power storyline for the Praetorian Loyalists, where your final morality decision is whether or not to present Cole the evidence that Praetor Berry is defying his wishes with respect to one of Berry's secret projects, it's not clear that anything changes as a result. Cole shows up, sees the evidence, says he'll have to have a talk with Berry. But he also compliments you on being one of Praetoria's best and brightest, even though the storyline is all about getting recognition without really earning or deserving it.

Then, shortly after, you're shipped off to Primal Earth and Berry is still a Praetor.

I haven't done Cole's personal story yet, and it's always dangerous to speculate on things you don't know about, but my guess would be that Cole's biggest failing was his trust in his friends -- he made them Praetors because he thought they could do good for Praetoria, but also because he liked them and thought they liked him. No matter how many times they went against his wishes, the Praetors were always able to convince Cole that they were doing what they were doing for Praetoria's benefit, and his benefit, and Cole believed them, not just because he was a tyrant, but because these were his friends.

Sure, it may sound like sympathy for the devil, but if Cole were really as ruthless and evil as some in this thread are making him out to be, a lot of Praetoria's problems wouldn't have been nearly as bad, because the people behind them -- the Praetors -- would have faced the same evil justice as those who went against the state in different ways.

--
Pauper

Not really, Provost Marchand's dialogue at the end of the Praetorian tutorial suggests quite the opposite. He *wants* you to shake things up, because he knows the PPD are ineffective. Even Praetor White agrees, Top Dogs bow to no one, no matter whom you might piss off along the way - you can kill his girlfriend or best friend and he still has to swallow it with a smile because you had proof (real or forged, depending on your moral choice) that they were dirty.

This isn't true, Powers Division spends alot of time investigating their superiors. Once Power Loyalists got proof that Praetor Duncan was behind the new Destroyers at Imperial City, she was in real trouble with the authorities and only escaped punishment by arranging a scapegoat even higher up the ladder - as a result of a Powers Division investigation, Praetor Keyes lost his praetorship. Or, on the other side of the spectrum, ambitious crusader turn-coats can blackmail Praetor White about his involvement with the Destroyers at Nova Praetoria.

Praetors apparently still answer to the law, and Cole isn't known to be forgiving when definite proof of a crime is presented - hell, he killed his own daughter Alexis on forged proof that she was working with the Resistance, what wouldn't he do to one of the Praetors...

I'm not. I'm saying we have no *proof* that the Praetors weren't acting alone. That's the tricky part about a free society, even Tyrants are innocent until proven guilty

Not exactly true. First, Cole was elected emperor (whether it was a rigged election or not is another question), he didn't simply grab power. Second, we don't know the limits of that position. Until very recently, there *was* a Magisterium of elected officials in Nova Praetoria (which the Crusaders blew up for kicks). Does Cole still ultimately answer to the Magisterium, meaning, can the Magisterium depose him? Is Cole above the law, meaning if he breaks a law, is he legally immune from prosecution? Cole appears to have judicial power, can he also legislate? Is Cole allowed to simply draw bills or must he run them by the Magisterium first? Can he veto Magisterium decisions? Can he dissolve the Magisterium? Can he declare war on another nation/world without the approval of the Magisterium?

From playing the last arc of the Responsibility path, I got the distinct impression that Cole's actual power was limited unless he had the support of his people, which is why he was about to allow Arachnos to blow up one of Anti-Matter's reactors - an open act of agression by Primal Earth would justify the need to invade. If he was a ruthless Tyrant with limitless power, he wouldn't have needed that justification or the support of his people.

It's just an opinion, but from what I saw in First Ward, psychic women in Praetoria have a real chance of becoming uncontrollable, visibly deformed tentacled monsters. Of course, neither Cole nor us could have known that this "psychic disease" was a side-effect of Tilman's vampiric atrocities, and so he gladly went along with Mother's offer to "cure" the psychics at Mercy Hospital. When she offered to release a few of her patients to help out the PPD detect crimes, Cole probably thought of it as a lesser evil for the greater good.

I'm not saying it isn't horrible, and everytime I ran the Warden's path I've always helped Katie release the seers (only to see them all get butchered in First Ward, sigh...), but after the events of First Ward (where you see a single seer killing everyone inside a military base) I can understand Cole's need to find a solution for this "psychic disease". He chose the wrong solution, no doubt, but in this case I clearly believe he had no clue on how crazy Tilman really was.

I agree, the restoration of freedom is essencial. What I don't agree (by lack of proof, and there's no more proof to be found since this is probably the last Praetorian i-Trial) is that the oppression is a direct consequence of having an emperor. England has a queen, Spain has a king, Sweden has a king, are these people oppressed? A monarch's power is limited, even if they were insane, there's only so much trouble they could cause before being deposed.

Admittedly the level of oppression happening in Praetoria is completely out of control (drugs in the water network, city-wide psychic screening, wild-west justice enforced by corrupt PPD officers, etc), but all of these could still be in place if Praetoria had a president instead of an emperor. That said, Praetorians have an immense technological advantage over Primals which would allow them to build a much better society than we can - assuming they don't get exploited by monsters like Tilman and Duncan.

Not necessarily, with its miniscule population, Praetoria is in no danger of running out of resources, particularly when their anti-matter reactors offer them limitless energy and are perpectually maintained by self-repairing clockwork. Assuming the city model could be replicated elsewhere, there's no limit to the expansion Praetorians could enjoy if they got rid of Hamidon.

I don't think Hamidon opposed technology as much as the devastation of the environment perpectuated by humans. Unlike Primal Earth, however, Praetoria is ecologically sound, not dependant on fuel resources and (ironically enough given the events of i23) in little danger of being forced to utilize nukes.

I agree, but the problem (in Cole's head) is that Primals who travel to Praetoria have the potential to cause ecological disturbances, which could make the Hamidon active again.

All true. And for added emphasis:

I don't have time to deal with all the fail in this thread right now, so I'm just dealing with this: dude, you need to stop what you are doing and go read some history. You're just embarrassing yourself. Tyrant's regime is patterned almost exactly after any number of real-life totalitarian states. All of these clowns had some kind of senate or assembly or "advisory council" that supposedly had legislative power but in reality existed to do nothing but rubberstamp the autocrat's decrees. On rare occasions these strawmen would be used as a face-saving measure; if it became clear that (usually due to external forces) the autocrat's planned course of action was not feasible he'd have them "pass a resolution" against it. The Magisterium assembly only existed to provide the facade of legitimate government. The truth was that Tyrant answered to no one, and that's patently obvious to anyone who didn't sleep through high-school history.

Modern Monarchs are constitutional monarchies, their powers are limited, and most importantly there is rule of law. That wasn't always true. I'll admit my knowledge of Spanish and Swedish history is limited, but England's monarchy was limited by a number of legal documents, among the earliest was the Magna Carte. And it was proven necessary because, even though England had a number of remarkable kings with a goal of creating a society of might for right as opposed to might makes right - just as many subscribed to might making right.

Most of the traditional monarchies had revolutions that either greatly restricted their powers or completely removed them from power. A few were smart enough to see the change in the air and gave up some power voluntarily to head off a revolution.

The title isn't that important, "President for life" is a popular title for tyrants of one form or other. The oppression happens, simply enough, when the legal and social environment provides no barriers to it happening. "Rule of law". "Checks and balances". If there's no penalty for being a monster, a monster will step up to fill the void.

And I'd challenge a statement. The Praetorian technological advantage makes it possible to prove a higher standard of living to its citizens, but that's NOT the same as a better society. The Roman emperors provided bread and circuses to pacify its peasants while the emperors destroyed the civilization. Mussillini made the trains run on time. A good standard of living is part of a good society, but by no means all.

You say Lucius Tarquinius Superbus and Lucius Junius Brutus, I counter with Louis XVI and Maximilien Robespierre.

You're rude, Venture, anyone ever told you that?

When the established order falls apart, there's a battle for power. Good things and bad things will happen, and when the dust settles, there's a new order which may or may not be better. Unless you were a member of the upper class or the clergy, life wasn't good under Louis XVI. In the United States, after our revolution, we could quite easily have fallen into our own tyranny but for the remarkable men called the founding fathers. (Human and thus flawed but still remarkable.)

If there was to be a issue 23.5 where we tackle Praetorian Hami and end his threat once and for all (This would seem to be a morally justifiable situation for mucking with the time stream and taking him out before he became a world killer), there's no guarantee that a Representative Democracy would break out. (The desire of the writers to dip into that well for more stories would argue against that.) Death to Tyrants is desirable, but "Replace the tyrant with rule of law and establish a recognition of the rights of the individuals" is important. Pity it doesn't fit on a protest sign well, though.

I think that's not true. If he despised and feared humanity and wanted to commit world wide genocide on primal earth - why not start on Praetoria, leaving behind a small cadre of followers and minions to do things.

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that he does do what he thinks is necessary to protect what survives of humanity from Hamidon. Like Malta, he thinks he's doing the right thing. And like Malta, he's not big on checks and balances and has an expansive view of "acceptable collateral damage". Like Malta, he's not wrong about the threat, just so desperately wrong in the ways of dealing with them.

He did

Also, these are Tyrant's own views on humanity and who he's accountable to:

So to him, mass-murder, torture, slavery drugged water and brainwashing are the foundations for a "perfect" society
- and that for society to be "perfect", humans can't be given any choice in how it's run - and only he knows what's best for everyone.
What's interesting about his delusions is that while he seems hung up on not letting humanity be "destructive", he seems to think that destroying anyone that opposes him is fine.
His basic line of reasoning in his little speech is "I must destory millions of humans to stop them being destructive" - and those millions become trillions once his plans to conquer noit just primal Earth but all of existence are taken into account.
His grand plan to "save" humanity is to slaughter, torture and enslave his way across the multiverse.

No, Tyrant did not try to take out humanity on Praetoria Earth, that was done in the wars between non-meta humans and the war against the Devouring Earth.

He definitely views himself as a superior being, and that superiority gives him not just the right but the duty to take action.

He sees himself as a "shepard", keeping his flock, putting down the rabid ones, culling the infected ones. It's the same madness that drives bad acts in portions of the Middle East, perhaps.

I think it's clear in this thread I'm not a big fan of his methods or his reasoning. He went down a dark road and appeared somewhere very bad. But it's far more nuanced than "I hate them and want to kill them all" (or dare I say it, "He hates us for our freedoms).

I'm not a fan of the first SSA series, and thought the death of Statesman was handled remarkably badly. But there's some relevance here... in many ways, Marcus Cole in either dimension had left his humanity behind (as had Stefan Richtar). Powers beyond any mortal ken, immortality, the belief that one will live for generations and see all you ever get close to age and die (assuming you don't step into an obvious booby-trap). Praetorian Marcus Cole was in a world where humanity had really and truly messed up, was busy destroying each other war, and then spawned the Devouring Earth, he became the master and the protector, doing what was necessary because they could not be trusted. Stefan Richtar's inhibitions were tossed away as something for lesser beings.

But Primal Marcus Cole had kept his connections with humanity, personal connections, held them close, and saw the good in man, the possibilities as well as the weaknesses. Those connections are what carried him off to the afterlife, resting after a long life.

Actually, the Ancient Greeks would disagree. Back in the day, tyrants were merely autocrats that seized power after a revolution against a monarch.