Heartsick (*SPOILERS FOR BELLADONNA VETRANO*)
Southern United Manufacturing Company
A major Paragon City corporation in the 1920s, Southern United once controlled most of the Steel Canyon district. The company used coercion, blackmail, and numerous other immoral tactics to gain a stranglehold on the city. It also openly supported Paragon Citys corrupt mayor, Spanky Rabinowitz . Statesman eventually discovered that Southern United was actually a front for the villain known as Nemesis, who was subsequently defeated by Statesman and local law enforcement. Although Nemesis escaped capture, its believed that Southern United was dissolved after his disappearance. |
And even now, yes, crime and corruption happens. Run the new Penny Yin TF for an example (two thumbs way up). There are people who break the law, among the high and mighty as well as the low and scrabbling. Heroes stop them. In Praetoria, it happened from the top and was at a minimum winked at if not outright encouraged.
Might For Right Act Inscription (413, 8, 890), Galaxy City In 1967, these streets were filled with protestors railing against the Might For Right Act. The country had united behind the cause of three African-American heroes, who claimed that the CIA was discriminating against minorities by targeting them for conscription. |
Project: World Wide Red (49-50) Souvenir - Crimson The thanks of the World (...) Acting quickly. you were able to find Dr. Lamarr at the Malta base where she was being forced to work on Project: Wildflower. She explained that Wildflower was a perversion of her own work. a symbiotic invisible nanotechnology-based ecosystem that Malta wanted reprogrammed to kill on their command. If released. it could infect the entire world. invisibly placing it under Malta control. Their first strike would be to kill thousands of heroes. yourself included! As you rushed to the site where Malta was letting the nanites multiply before releasing them. Malta unleashed their Kronos Titan! Undaunted. you made it to the nanite factory and reset all of the nanites to break themselves down. nipping Project: Wildflower in the bud. (...) You also found out that Director 17. the head of World Wide Red. was in the city and that his cover identity was within the CIA. (...) Crimson used his ex-CIA contact Melvin Langley to learn the identity of Director 17. and when that contact was captured. you went in and rescued him. Melvin told you that Director 17 was none other than Jack Firenze, the head of the CIA's China Bureau. |
In many ways, Malta is one of the more interesting groups in the game. They have zero doubts they believe they are the good guys in the fight. And the comments you get from Crimson rip that view to shreds. In one of the DA arcs you work with Malta (definitely with the help of a Malta contact, and based on your choices) with Malta assistance.
Malta is an example of the same thinking that empowered Emperor Cole, and yes empowered Hitler. The risk to the people is so high that any action is acceptable to save them. (Post World War I Germany was bad - in addition to suffering from the worldwide depression, punitive reparations were crushing Germany.) Malta, though a powerful connected conspiracy, is only able to set plots in action through stealth and deceit. Hitler had an army to command. Cole got a whole world.
Is everything great in Primal Earth, is everyone in power utterly trustworthy, smart, and brave? Of course not, because a world like that wouldn't need heroes (and be pretty boring to play in). But the good fight continues here, there are those who fight to protect those without powers and consider themselves bound by the same laws that all men, women, aliens, and self-aware technical devices are held to.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
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GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Sorry, no, you have to have unlocked your Alpha slot to run Apex and Tin Mage. You don't have to have anything slotted in it, but if it's not unlocked, you can't run it. |
Funny, I seem to recall accounts of basic 50s being invited into Apex/Tin Mage teams but being subjected to the -4 level debuff. |
Well, why don't we look to see what the Patch Notes say about it?
Patch notes & known issues for the release of Issue 19: Alpha strike.
Incarnate System
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Well, tell you what. Tin Mage is the WTF... this week, I think? We'll get a team together and you can find someone with an unlocked 50, and we'll see what happens. If it works, we'll tell the Wiki to update, and then ask the devs if we should /bug it. |
Don't ask the Wiki to update if an unlocked 50 can do it (unless they put in a note that there is a bug allowing unlocked 50's to run it), but definitely /bug it if an unlocked 50 can run it as that is counter to what is in the patch notes and what the Devs told us their plan for those two was.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
A major Paragon City corporation in the 1920s, Southern United once controlled most of the Steel Canyon district. The company used coercion, blackmail, and numerous other immoral tactics to gain a stranglehold on the city. It also openly supported Paragon Citys corrupt mayor, Spanky Rabinowitz . Statesman eventually discovered that Southern United was actually a front for the villain known as Nemesis, who was subsequently defeated by Statesman and local law enforcement. Although Nemesis escaped capture, its believed that Southern United was dissolved after his disappearance.
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In 1967, these streets were filled with protestors railing against the Might For Right Act. The country had united behind the cause of three African-American heroes, who claimed that the CIA was discriminating against minorities by targeting them for conscription. |
Project: World Wide Red (49-50) Souvenir - Crimson |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
So a corrupt corporation that was a front for a supervillain was discovered and dissolved. Doesn't sound like officially sanctioned corruption to me.
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Except that you forgot to quote the part where the Might for Right Act was repealed.
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You are seriously citing a Malta plot as evidence of government-sanctioned corruption? Seriously? Maybe you should go replay Indigo and Crimson's arcs again and remind yourself how Malta actually used to operate back when they were scary and not just a bunch of thugs with giant robots and sap guns.
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That specific Malta plot was worse than anything Cole has ever done, basically implanting a remote bomb in every citizen in the country. That a high-ranking CIA agent was behind the plot means it's official, regardless of whatever plausible deniability the government might hide behind. And I do believe the head of the CIA had no knowledge of what was happening, just as I believe Cole didn't order Col. Duray to unleash Warworks against civilian targets in Skyway City, or that he was unaware (or had no proof) that Mother Mayhem was kidnapping psychics to satisfy her vampiric hunger instead of treating them.
Look, Eva, I'm not asking for the dismantling of Primal society. These examples were meant only as a reminder that corruption is universal. There's alot of good in Praetoria, things I wish we had in real (not Primal) Earth. After all, we're talking about a technologically advanced, ecologically stable society with limitless energy, clean water, free health-care and an automated clockwork force capable of handling every menial job you can think off. You don't throw that away because some crazy lady with psychic powers is brainwashing everyone around her - you arrest her.
Instead of that silly Rift mission once you run out of content in Neutropolis, had the game clarified the role of Powers Division post lvl 20, had them officially launch an investigation into Cole and his Praetors, culminating in undeniable proof of their guilt, had Powers Division *then* made contact with Primal Earth (Longbow, Vanguard and Arachnos) and requested their aid in arresting Cole... this whole i-Trial stuff would have made alot more sense.
Seriously.
That specific Malta plot was worse than anything Cole has ever done, basically implanting a remote bomb in every citizen in the country. That a high-ranking CIA agent was behind the plot means it's official, regardless of whatever plausible deniability the government might hide behind. And I do believe the head of the CIA had no knowledge of what was happening, just as I believe Cole didn't order Col. Duray to unleash Warworks against civilian targets in Skyway City, or that he was unaware (or had no proof) that Mother Mayhem was kidnapping psychics to satisfy her vampiric hunger instead of treating them. Look, Eva, I'm not asking for the dismantling of Primal society. These examples were meant only as a reminder that corruption is universal. There's alot of good in Praetoria, things I wish we had in real (not Primal) Earth. After all, we're talking about a technologically advanced, ecologically stable society with limitless energy, clean water, free health-care and an automated clockwork force capable of handling every menial job you can think off. You don't throw that away because some crazy lady with psychic powers is brainwashing everyone around her - you arrest her. |
Even if you want to claim Cole didn't know about what Tilman was doing, what the other Praetors were doing (which would require a remarkable level of blindness and stupidity), there was one law: Cole's. His power was absolute. If history has shown us anything, this is a BAD THING. Even if things are temporarily good on some measurements, it's going to go bad, and it's really really bad for some people (those who aren't willing to be happy drones serving the queen).
Instead of that silly Rift mission once you run out of content in Neutropolis, had the game clarified the role of Powers Division post lvl 20, had them officially launch an investigation into Cole and his Praetors, culminating in undeniable proof of their guilt, had Powers Division *then* made contact with Primal Earth (Longbow, Vanguard and Arachnos) and requested their aid in arresting Cole... this whole i-Trial stuff would have made alot more sense. |
Yes, freedom is messy. Some people will misuse their freedom to do bad things, sometimes really bad things. Even in a group of reasonably well-intentioned people, there will be disagreements and friction. But freedom is intrinsic to the human creature. Praetoria would only work long term if it was ruled and populated by something other than humans (and I can't quite imagine what that something would be).
So yeah, Praetoria is pretty, and if you never go anywhere near the electric fences things are good. But the fences are there, they are deadly, and the open area will shrink every day.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Praetorian Earth was pretty much doomed when Hamidon went out of control. As Hamidon is opposed to technology and civilization on principle, the only choices Praetorians had were "become animals/savages on a Hamidon earth" or "leave the planet". The content in i23 suggests the second, but those who live outside Praetoria or keep fighting the Carnival will probably end up with the first. Could make for some cool mob models.
But at least Praetorian Hamidon (and probably other versions) only wants to "purify" its Earth. It does not care about Mars, or any other Earths.
Cole made two mistakes:
1. He appointed Praetors to rule and control society but did not put nearly enough effort into ruling and controlling the Praetors themselves. His answer to "who will watch the watchmen" was "I will". And then he didn't.
2. When other realities, notably Primal, were discovered he tried to conquer them instead of simply moving to one. I think the dealbreaker was that it would have put him and the people under the rule of whoever was already living on the world they moved to. And on an empty Earth there would be no threat to justify his absolute rule. The hardest part of having power is giving it up. Cole failed.
I do not suffer from altitis, I enjoy every character of it.
First, let me say that, despite the number of references to Hitler, this is a surprisingly interesting thread to read through. One observation:
Even if you want to claim Cole didn't know about what Tilman was doing, what the other Praetors were doing (which would require a remarkable level of blindness and stupidity), there was one law: Cole's. His power was absolute.
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Then, shortly after, you're shipped off to Primal Earth and Berry is still a Praetor.
I haven't done Cole's personal story yet, and it's always dangerous to speculate on things you don't know about, but my guess would be that Cole's biggest failing was his trust in his friends -- he made them Praetors because he thought they could do good for Praetoria, but also because he liked them and thought they liked him. No matter how many times they went against his wishes, the Praetors were always able to convince Cole that they were doing what they were doing for Praetoria's benefit, and his benefit, and Cole believed them, not just because he was a tyrant, but because these were his friends.
Sure, it may sound like sympathy for the devil, but if Cole were really as ruthless and evil as some in this thread are making him out to be, a lot of Praetoria's problems wouldn't have been nearly as bad, because the people behind them -- the Praetors -- would have faced the same evil justice as those who went against the state in different ways.
--
Pauper
Big, big post, read at your own peril ^_^
The difference is that in Primal Earth, corruption is something that heroes fight and, if caught, the corrupt individuals get arrested and at locked up. In Praetoria, so long as they're keeping things quiet, you get your head patted.
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Except Powers Division is a creature of the government of Praetoria. The INSTANT anyone in Powers Division even thinks about investigating Cole and his Praetors, they are enemies of the state
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Praetors apparently still answer to the law, and Cole isn't known to be forgiving when definite proof of a crime is presented - hell, he killed his own daughter Alexis on forged proof that she was working with the Resistance, what wouldn't he do to one of the Praetors...
Even if you want to claim Cole didn't know about what Tilman was doing, what the other Praetors were doing (which would require a remarkable level of blindness and stupidity) (...)
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
(...) there was one law: Cole's. His power was absolute. If history has shown us anything, this is a BAD THING. Even if things are temporarily good on some measurements, it's going to go bad, and it's really really bad for some people (those who aren't willing to be happy drones serving the queen).
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From playing the last arc of the Responsibility path, I got the distinct impression that Cole's actual power was limited unless he had the support of his people, which is why he was about to allow Arachnos to blow up one of Anti-Matter's reactors - an open act of agression by Primal Earth would justify the need to invade. If he was a ruthless Tyrant with limitless power, he wouldn't have needed that justification or the support of his people.
I know you say "Cole didn't know how crazy Tilman was" - but what did he think the goal of the seers was except to make bad thought a crime.
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I'm not saying it isn't horrible, and everytime I ran the Warden's path I've always helped Katie release the seers (only to see them all get butchered in First Ward, sigh...), but after the events of First Ward (where you see a single seer killing everyone inside a military base) I can understand Cole's need to find a solution for this "psychic disease". He chose the wrong solution, no doubt, but in this case I clearly believe he had no clue on how crazy Tilman really was.
Yes, freedom is messy. Some people will misuse their freedom to do bad things, sometimes really bad things. Even in a group of reasonably well-intentioned people, there will be disagreements and friction. But freedom is intrinsic to the human creature. Praetoria would only work long term if it was ruled and populated by something other than humans (and I can't quite imagine what that something would be).
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Admittedly the level of oppression happening in Praetoria is completely out of control (drugs in the water network, city-wide psychic screening, wild-west justice enforced by corrupt PPD officers, etc), but all of these could still be in place if Praetoria had a president instead of an emperor. That said, Praetorians have an immense technological advantage over Primals which would allow them to build a much better society than we can - assuming they don't get exploited by monsters like Tilman and Duncan.
So yeah, Praetoria is pretty, and if you never go anywhere near the electric fences things are good. But the fences are there, they are deadly, and the open area will shrink every day.
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Praetorian Earth was pretty much doomed when Hamidon went out of control. As Hamidon is opposed to technology and civilization on principle, the only choices Praetorians had were "become animals/savages on a Hamidon earth" or "leave the planet". The content in i23 suggests the second, but those who live outside Praetoria or keep fighting the Carnival will probably end up with the first. Could make for some cool mob models.
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But at least Praetorian Hamidon (and probably other versions) only wants to "purify" its Earth. It does not care about Mars, or any other Earths.
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Cole made two mistakes:
1. He appointed Praetors to rule and control society but did not put nearly enough effort into ruling and controlling the Praetors themselves. His answer to "who will watch the watchmen" was "I will". And then he didn't. 2. When other realities, notably Primal, were discovered he tried to conquer them instead of simply moving to one. I think the dealbreaker was that it would have put him and the people under the rule of whoever was already living on the world they moved to. And on an empty Earth there would be no threat to justify his absolute rule. The hardest part of having power is giving it up. Cole failed. |
Not exactly true. First, Cole was elected emperor (whether it was a rigged election or not is another question), he didn't simply grab power. Second, we don't know the limits of that position. Until very recently, there *was* a Magisterium of elected officials in Nova Praetoria (which the Crusaders blew up for kicks). Does Cole still ultimately answer to the Magisterium, meaning, can the Magisterium depose him? Is Cole above the law, meaning if he breaks a law, is he legally immune from prosecution? Cole appears to have judicial power, can he also legislate? Is Cole allowed to simply draw bills or must he run them by the Magisterium first? Can he veto Magisterium decisions? Can he dissolve the Magisterium? Can he declare war on another nation/world without the approval of the Magisterium? |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
I agree, the restoration of freedom is essencial. What I don't agree (by lack of proof, and there's no more proof to be found since this is probably the last Praetorian i-Trial) is that the oppression is a direct consequence of having an emperor. England has a queen, Spain has a king, Sweden has a king, are these people oppressed? A monarch's power is limited, even if they were insane, there's only so much trouble they could cause before being deposed.
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Most of the traditional monarchies had revolutions that either greatly restricted their powers or completely removed them from power. A few were smart enough to see the change in the air and gave up some power voluntarily to head off a revolution.
Admittedly the level of oppression happening in Praetoria is completely out of control (drugs in the water network, city-wide psychic screening, wild-west justice enforced by corrupt PPD officers, etc), but all of these could still be in place if Praetoria had a president instead of an emperor. That said, Praetorians have an immense technological advantage over Primals which would allow them to build a much better society than we can - assuming they don't get exploited by monsters like Tilman and Duncan. |
And I'd challenge a statement. The Praetorian technological advantage makes it possible to prove a higher standard of living to its citizens, but that's NOT the same as a better society. The Roman emperors provided bread and circuses to pacify its peasants while the emperors destroyed the civilization. Mussillini made the trains run on time. A good standard of living is part of a good society, but by no means all.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I don't have time to deal with all the fail in this thread right now, so I'm just dealing with this: dude, you need to stop what you are doing and go read some history. You're just embarrassing yourself. Tyrant's regime is patterned almost exactly after any number of real-life totalitarian states. All of these clowns had some kind of senate or assembly or "advisory council" that supposedly had legislative power but in reality existed to do nothing but rubberstamp the autocrat's decrees. On rare occasions these strawmen would be used as a face-saving measure; if it became clear that (usually due to external forces) the autocrat's planned course of action was not feasible he'd have them "pass a resolution" against it. The Magisterium assembly only existed to provide the facade of legitimate government. The truth was that Tyrant answered to no one, and that's patently obvious to anyone who didn't sleep through high-school history.
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You're rude, Venture, anyone ever told you that?
All tyrants are evil - that's why they called him Tyrant =p
Monarchies that have zero power are just quaint and pretty harmless - but monarchies with any kind of power at all are bad - power always needs to be accountable.
Tyrant isn't accountable to anyone - he's immortanl, and until the foirces of justice arrived from Primal Earth, he was invincible.
He despises and fears humanity, and attempted world wide genocide on Primal Earth in an attempt to enslave it as the start of a planned conquest of all of exitence - he's the most evil character they'd put in the game so far.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
You say Lucius Tarquinius Superbus and Lucius Junius Brutus, I counter with Louis XVI and Maximilien Robespierre.
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If there was to be a issue 23.5 where we tackle Praetorian Hami and end his threat once and for all (This would seem to be a morally justifiable situation for mucking with the time stream and taking him out before he became a world killer), there's no guarantee that a Representative Democracy would break out. (The desire of the writers to dip into that well for more stories would argue against that.) Death to Tyrants is desirable, but "Replace the tyrant with rule of law and establish a recognition of the rights of the individuals" is important. Pity it doesn't fit on a protest sign well, though.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Tyrant isn't accountable to anyone - he's immortanl, and until the foirces of justice arrived from Primal Earth, he was invincible.
He despises and fears humanity, and attempted world wide genocide on Primal Earth in an attempt to enslave it as the start of a planned conquest of all of exitence - he's the most evil character they'd put in the game so far. |
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that he does do what he thinks is necessary to protect what survives of humanity from Hamidon. Like Malta, he thinks he's doing the right thing. And like Malta, he's not big on checks and balances and has an expansive view of "acceptable collateral damage". Like Malta, he's not wrong about the threat, just so desperately wrong in the ways of dealing with them.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
I think that's not true. If he despised and feared humanity and wanted to commit world wide genocide on primal earth - why not start on Praetoria, leaving behind a small cadre of followers and minions to do things.
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Also, these are Tyrant's own views on humanity and who he's accountable to:
"People are weak. At least when it comes to doing the right thing. That is why you cannot give them the choice to do what is wrong. I have done so in Praetoria, and look at how it has flourished. Primal Earth, however, allows this to continue, even with some of the worst examples of humanity. That is why it must be wiped away. They know of our perfect world and already, as you have seen, they seek to destroy us. People, when left to their own free will, will seek only to destroy that which is good, that which is pure. I will not give them the option to do that. I will strike them down before they can actand ensure that no others ever get the chance to make that choice, the choice to destroy. Humanity cannot be trusted with that choice of destruction; only someone like myself can." |
- and that for society to be "perfect", humans can't be given any choice in how it's run - and only he knows what's best for everyone.
What's interesting about his delusions is that while he seems hung up on not letting humanity be "destructive", he seems to think that destroying anyone that opposes him is fine.
His basic line of reasoning in his little speech is "I must destory millions of humans to stop them being destructive" - and those millions become trillions once his plans to conquer noit just primal Earth but all of existence are taken into account.
His grand plan to "save" humanity is to slaughter, torture and enslave his way across the multiverse.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
He definitely views himself as a superior being, and that superiority gives him not just the right but the duty to take action.
Also, these are Tyrant's own views on humanity and who he's accountable to: Quote:
- and that for society to be "perfect", humans can't be given any choice in how it's run - and only he knows what's best for everyone. What's interesting about his delusions is that while he seems hung up on not letting humanity be "destructive", he seems to think that destroying anyone that opposes him is fine. His basic line of reasoning in his little speech is "I must destory millions of humans to stop them being destructive" - and those millions become trillions once his plans to conquer noit just primal Earth but all of existence are taken into account. His grand plan to "save" humanity is to slaughter, torture and enslave his way across the multiverse. |
I think it's clear in this thread I'm not a big fan of his methods or his reasoning. He went down a dark road and appeared somewhere very bad. But it's far more nuanced than "I hate them and want to kill them all" (or dare I say it, "He hates us for our freedoms).
I'm not a fan of the first SSA series, and thought the death of Statesman was handled remarkably badly. But there's some relevance here... in many ways, Marcus Cole in either dimension had left his humanity behind (as had Stefan Richtar). Powers beyond any mortal ken, immortality, the belief that one will live for generations and see all you ever get close to age and die (assuming you don't step into an obvious booby-trap). Praetorian Marcus Cole was in a world where humanity had really and truly messed up, was busy destroying each other war, and then spawned the Devouring Earth, he became the master and the protector, doing what was necessary because they could not be trusted. Stefan Richtar's inhibitions were tossed away as something for lesser beings.
But Primal Marcus Cole had kept his connections with humanity, personal connections, held them close, and saw the good in man, the possibilities as well as the weaknesses. Those connections are what carried him off to the afterlife, resting after a long life.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Well, now the Incarnate Trials let you smash the dictatoirship once and for all - so all that frustration of not being able to bring Tyrant and his thugs to justice in GR is finally at an end.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork