Heartsick (*SPOILERS FOR BELLADONNA VETRANO*)
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Then what you have is a very narrow and precise definition of what a Moral Event Horizon is. Scirocco is a terrorist despite mitigating circumstances, but Manticore has the free will to choose but gets a free pass.
No, it's more like I do believe in the Moral Event Horizon. You can't backtrack after you've walked off a cliff.
Edit: oh, and I agree with Brad. Less war, more crimefighting. With meaningful consequences plz k thx bai. |
Face it. You don't believe in Face Heel Turns because your idea of when someone goes over the Moral Event Horizon is very, VERY limited. You seem to believe that "once a villain, always a villain." And you have a zero tolerance policy on the idea of redemption.
Not to mention comparing Cole to Hitler and Nazi Germany is punching the Godwin's Law button and mashing it as hard as you can.
Well good.
It's difficult not to though, when the loyalist dictatorship has been set up to resemble them in several ways.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You're right, but the idea is NOT to go for the easy way and just say "lol Cole = Hitler", but that's obviously NOT the case.
It's difficult not to though, when the loyalist dictatorship has been set up to resemble them in several ways.
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As I recall, Hitler wasn't the sole super-powered being capable to beating the Hamidon to a draw and had to make a truce just to keep all of humanity from going extinct.
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That is a very interesting insight.
That's the myth told after the people's minds were addled by Enriche.
The Destroyers, however, remember being there to help Marauder when "he alone, stood by Cole." And goodness knows how many meta humans were killed by "friendly fire" (read: secret execution) before, during and after the war, all rolled into the combat in order to secure Emperor Cole's vision of a perfect world or to satisfy the egos of the people he brought into his circles of power. The truth of the Hamidon Wars cannot be trusted because it's all a veil of history rather than the fact of it. Finally, it all boils down to one man's decision to die slowly and afraid in the gilded cage he built for himself and the people around him rather than stand and fight. |
Something witty and profound
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This argument won't die because you keep messing your analogies. The role of these "true monsters of history" should be assigned to Hamidon, not Cole. Cole was just the defeated general forced into unconditional surrender and tasked to enforce whatever unfair terms Hami came up with, even if it meant oppressing his people - the alternative was the complete and utter anhilihation of the human race.
All of the true monsters in human history, from Chin Shih Huang-Ti through Hitler to Osama bin Laden and whoever else is coming down the pike, committed their atrocities because they thought they were doing good. They were saving their people from evil and corruption, according to them at least. What is so frustrating about this Argument That Will Not Die is that practically everything Tyrant and his regime said and did is cut and pasted from real human history. If you're prepared to argue that Tyrant was really a good guy then you might as well argue that Hitler was just misunderstood.
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If you're talking about world history, go refresh your memory on what the romans did to tribes that refused to surrender. Go ask the japanese if they'd rather have their cities nuked one by one or accept whatever terms the allies might come up with in the future. Liberty, civil rights, suffragism, free speech, all these things we now take for granted were earned through force of arms, they're priviledges of more civilized times that can (and often do) get swept away when someone stronger comes along and prevents them from being upheld.
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No, he didn't. He said he had good intentions. He may even have believed he had good intentions. But as a dead fictional white guy said, it's the choices you make that determine who you are. Tyrant's choices show who he really is: a bully and a coward (but then I repeat myself), afraid of the rest of the human race.
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As for the comparisons made to Paragon City, I wonder exactly how we know what the murder rate is in Skyway City and where this information is available, either on the company website or in game. The truth is that Paragon City is in growth mode. They're rebuilding destroyed areas of the city, building new housing, and that wouldn't be done unless people were moving into the city. The game's artificially-inflated portrayal of criminal activity notwithstanding, people want to live there. Whereas even with everyone drinking the mandatory government-supplied Kool-Aid people were literally dying to get out of Praetoria.
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I'll direct you to the trial of Gaius Baltar from the Battlestar Galactica series, almost a carbon copy of what's happening in Praetoria. If you've never seen it, a race of evil machines called the Cylons had just nuked 12 billion humans, and the 40.000 or so survivors elected Gaius Baltar as their president. Eventually the Cylons caught up with the human survivors, and Baltar was tasked with making sure no one misbehaved or they would nuke them as well, which he did through ruthless oppression and government sponsored murder. Brought to trial to answer for his crimes, once all the spite and righteous indignation was over, the jury was forced to conclude that any sane man in Baltar's position would have prioritized the exact same thing in that impossible situation - survival.
P.S. The question I would now pose is why did Cole fail to learn that the Primals had managed to defeat their own version of Hamidon?
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It wouldn't matter to him - he wasn't interested in an alliance, as that'd mean him losing his grip on the Praetorians - he only wanted war and conquest, not help.
P.S. The question I would now pose is why did Cole fail to learn that the Primals had managed to defeat their own version of Hamidon?
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Tyrant was only interested in power and control.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Please site examples.
There are countless examples of decisions being made in Paragon City, both local and federal, strictly to benefit criminal organizations and profiteers instead of serving the best interests of its people. Unlike in Praetoria, however, no one has a gun to our leaders' heads, it's just plain old corruption at its best. Authority abuse to prevent impending destruction? Regrettable, but I can accept it to a point. Authority abuse for profit? Much less acceptable. |
Something witty and profound
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He's too dangerous. Even if he's completely lost his powers -- which does not appear to be the case -- the first thing he'd do if he ever got free is try regain them or get new ones and start the whole thing over again. He'd be another Darrin Wade in the making.
I still figure Cole's been laid low. There's no need to kill him. Let him suffer. |
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Then what you have is a very narrow and precise definition of what a Moral Event Horizon is. |
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Scirocco is a terrorist despite mitigating circumstances, but Manticore has the free will to choose but gets a free pass. |
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Face it. You don't believe in Face Heel Turns because your idea of when someone goes over the Moral Event Horizon is very, VERY limited. You seem to believe that "once a villain, always a villain." And you have a zero tolerance policy on the idea of redemption. |
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Not to mention comparing Cole to Hitler and Nazi Germany is punching the Godwin's Law button and mashing it as hard as you can. |
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As I recall, Hitler wasn't the sole super-powered being capable to beating the Hamidon to a draw and had to make a truce just to keep all of humanity from going extinct. |
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This argument won't die because you keep messing your analogies. The role of these "true monsters of history" should be assigned to Hamidon, not Cole. |
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Cole was just the defeated general forced into unconditional surrender and tasked to enforce whatever unfair terms Hami came up with, even if it meant oppressing his people - the alternative was the complete and utter anhilihation of the human race. |
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You forgot to mention he also had a very big gun pointed to his head, one that had just wiped out 90% of the human race and was (as far as Cole knew) unstoppable. |
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There are countless examples of decisions being made in Paragon City, both local and federal, strictly to benefit criminal organizations and profiteers instead of serving the best interests of its people. |
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I'll direct you to the trial of Gaius Baltar from the Battlestar Galactica series, almost a carbon copy of what's happening in Praetoria. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Southern United Manufacturing Company
A major Paragon City corporation in the 1920s, Southern United once controlled most of the Steel Canyon district. The company used coercion, blackmail, and numerous other immoral tactics to gain a stranglehold on the city. It also openly supported Paragon City’s corrupt mayor, “Spanky” Rabinowitz . Statesman eventually discovered that Southern United was actually a front for the villain known as Nemesis, who was subsequently defeated by Statesman and local law enforcement. Although Nemesis escaped capture, it’s believed that Southern United was dissolved after his disappearance.
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Might For Right Act
Inscription (413, 8, 890), Galaxy City
In 1967, these streets were filled with protestors railing against the Might For Right Act. The country had united behind the cause of three African-American heroes, who claimed that the CIA was discriminating against minorities by targeting them for conscription.
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Project: World Wide Red (49-50)
Souvenir - Crimson
The thanks of the World
(...) Acting quickly. you were able to find Dr. Lamarr at the Malta base where she was being forced to work on Project: Wildflower. She explained that Wildflower was a perversion of her own work. a symbiotic invisible nanotechnology-based ecosystem that Malta wanted reprogrammed to kill on their command. If released. it could infect the entire world. invisibly placing it under Malta control. Their first strike would be to kill thousands of heroes. yourself included! As you rushed to the site where Malta was letting the nanites multiply before releasing them. Malta unleashed their Kronos Titan! Undaunted. you made it to the nanite factory and reset all of the nanites to break themselves down. nipping Project: Wildflower in the bud.
(...) You also found out that Director 17. the head of World Wide Red. was in the city and that his cover identity was within the CIA.
(...) Crimson used his ex-CIA contact Melvin Langley to learn the identity of Director 17. and when that contact was captured. you went in and rescued him. Melvin told you that Director 17 was none other than Jack Firenze, the head of the CIA's China Bureau.
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A major Paragon City corporation in the 1920s, Southern United once controlled most of the Steel Canyon district. The company used coercion, blackmail, and numerous other immoral tactics to gain a stranglehold on the city. It also openly supported Paragon City’s corrupt mayor, “Spanky” Rabinowitz . Statesman eventually discovered that Southern United was actually a front for the villain known as Nemesis, who was subsequently defeated by Statesman and local law enforcement. Although Nemesis escaped capture, it’s believed that Southern United was dissolved after his disappearance.
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Might For Right Act
Inscription (413, 8, 890), Galaxy City
In 1967, these streets were filled with protestors railing against the Might For Right Act. The country had united behind the cause of three African-American heroes, who claimed that the CIA was discriminating against minorities by targeting them for conscription.
----------------
Project: World Wide Red (49-50)
Souvenir - Crimson
The thanks of the World
(...) Acting quickly. you were able to find Dr. Lamarr at the Malta base where she was being forced to work on Project: Wildflower. She explained that Wildflower was a perversion of her own work. a symbiotic invisible nanotechnology-based ecosystem that Malta wanted reprogrammed to kill on their command. If released. it could infect the entire world. invisibly placing it under Malta control. Their first strike would be to kill thousands of heroes. yourself included! As you rushed to the site where Malta was letting the nanites multiply before releasing them. Malta unleashed their Kronos Titan! Undaunted. you made it to the nanite factory and reset all of the nanites to break themselves down. nipping Project: Wildflower in the bud.
(...) You also found out that Director 17. the head of World Wide Red. was in the city and that his cover identity was within the CIA.
(...) Crimson used his ex-CIA contact Melvin Langley to learn the identity of Director 17. and when that contact was captured. you went in and rescued him. Melvin told you that Director 17 was none other than Jack Firenze, the head of the CIA's China Bureau.
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Hamidon may not have forced Cole to create the specific policies you point out, Venture, but the unstable truce made those policies NECESSARY. If Cole couldn't show Hamidon he had absolute control over the remaining remnants of humanity, Hamidon would simply destroy them.
And seeing as no-one on Praetoria could conceivably defeat Hamidon, Tyrant had absolutely NO alternative.
As Issen said, define where the Moral Event Horizon is. As far as I can tell, Scirocco at the very least has not crossed it. Cole is possibly arguable.
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
Granted, Praetorian Hamidon is evidently MUCH more powerful than Primal Hamidon (Primal Hamidon can, and has, been defeated many times before any of us became Incarnates.)
![](http://i45.tinypic.com/5vvcxk.jpg)
![](http://i55.tinypic.com/6t2qgk.jpg)
Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
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Southern United Manufacturing Company
A major Paragon City corporation in the 1920s, Southern United once controlled most of the Steel Canyon district. The company used coercion, blackmail, and numerous other immoral tactics to gain a stranglehold on the city. It also openly supported Paragon Citys corrupt mayor, Spanky Rabinowitz . Statesman eventually discovered that Southern United was actually a front for the villain known as Nemesis, who was subsequently defeated by Statesman and local law enforcement. Although Nemesis escaped capture, its believed that Southern United was dissolved after his disappearance. ---------------- Might For Right Act Inscription (413, 8, 890), Galaxy City In 1967, these streets were filled with protestors railing against the Might For Right Act. The country had united behind the cause of three African-American heroes, who claimed that the CIA was discriminating against minorities by targeting them for conscription. ---------------- Project: World Wide Red (49-50) Souvenir - Crimson The thanks of the World (...) Acting quickly. you were able to find Dr. Lamarr at the Malta base where she was being forced to work on Project: Wildflower. She explained that Wildflower was a perversion of her own work. a symbiotic invisible nanotechnology-based ecosystem that Malta wanted reprogrammed to kill on their command. If released. it could infect the entire world. invisibly placing it under Malta control. Their first strike would be to kill thousands of heroes. yourself included! As you rushed to the site where Malta was letting the nanites multiply before releasing them. Malta unleashed their Kronos Titan! Undaunted. you made it to the nanite factory and reset all of the nanites to break themselves down. nipping Project: Wildflower in the bud. (...) You also found out that Director 17. the head of World Wide Red. was in the city and that his cover identity was within the CIA. (...) Crimson used his ex-CIA contact Melvin Langley to learn the identity of Director 17. and when that contact was captured. you went in and rescued him. Melvin told you that Director 17 was none other than Jack Firenze, the head of the CIA's China Bureau. ---------------- |
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with those - you seem to have given 3 examples that were dealt with by heroes and are no longer a problem - that's the way the game works.
Like Roy Cooling's arc, where we take down some rogue PPD, or the various Tip missions where we arrest vigilantes - whenever we learn about criminal activity by people in positions of power, we deal with it - which is what's been happening in the Praetorian war - the loyalists have now been dealt with, and can't harm the people anymore.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except when someone starts a new character and then it happens all over again.
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with those - you seem to have given 3 examples that were dealt with by heroes and are no longer a problem - that's the way the game works.
Like Roy Cooling's arc, where we take down some rogue PPD, or the various Tip missions where we arrest vigilantes - whenever we learn about criminal activity by people in positions of power, we deal with it - which is what's been happening in the Praetorian war - the loyalists have now been dealt with, and can't harm the people anymore. |
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
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That's the way MMOs work
Except when someone starts a new character and then it happens all over again.
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![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Meta-story-wise, the loyalists are finished - all new Incarnate content will be built on that as one of the basic truths of the meta-story - just like Statesman is now dead, even if players never play "Who Will Die".
That's one of the many things that's so awesome about Praetoria - they've created a huge story arc that actually has a permanent resolution - it's not like defeating Recluse and the patrons on the STF, but he's still in power and shows up with the patrons again in newer content, or defeating Reichsman in the KTF and he pops up again afterwards in DA - this defeat of the loyalist menace is final - the dictatorship is destroyed, and the AVs are either dead or captured - it's just awesome.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Except the STF wasn't about removing Recluse from power, it was about stopping his plot to empower himself through the Web. And Dark Astoria acknowledged that Reichsman had his *** kicked in the KTF/BSF and that he could barely hold a candle to your character in terms of power now. Oh, and the Praetorian zones under Tyrant's rule are still in the game.
That's the way MMOs work
![]() Meta-story-wise, the loyalists are finished - all new Incarnate content will be built on that as one of the basic truths of the meta-story - just like Statesman is now dead, even if players never play "Who Will Die". That's one of the many things that's so awesome about Praetoria - they've created a huge story arc that actually has a permanent resolution - it's not like defeating Recluse and the patrons on the STF, but he's still in power and shows up with the patrons again in newer content, or defeating Reichsman in the KTF and he pops up again afterwards in DA - this defeat of the loyalist menace is final - the dictatorship is destroyed, and the AVs are either dead or captured - it's just awesome. |
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
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Exactly - the outcomes were left vague so that they could return for further naughtiness in the classic comicbook style - while the defeat of the loyalists has been written to end their threat to the multiverse permanently.
Except the STF wasn't about removing Recluse from power, it was about stopping his plot to empower himself through the Web. And Dark Astoria acknowledged that Reichsman had his *** kicked in the KTF/BSF and that he could barely hold a candle to your character in terms of power now. Oh, and the Praetorian zones under Tyrant's rule are still in the game.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Except when someone starts a new character, then the Praetorian threat is fresh all over again.
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
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But not at the cutting edge of the developing meta-story
Except when someone starts a new character, then the Praetorian threat is fresh all over again.
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![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The Incanrate Trials and storyline are the "now" of the meta-storyline - the newest Trial is always the most up to date situation in the game world - even more than the SSAs, the Incarnate system is like a comicbook, where we follow multiple unfolding stories, characters and events as part of a rolling open-ended storyline.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Amusing, since that was specifically what the SSAs were supposed to be. I highly doubt this assessment, as you should notice the SSAs specifically saw the removal of Statesman and Sister Psyche from the game, whereas the iTrials have done no such thing concerning Emperor Cole and the Praetors.
![](http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy70/KojiroJames/neversurrendersig.jpg)
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The SSAs work to a slightly different timeline, while the non-SSA and non-Incarnate content work to a 3rd timeline.
Amusing, since that was specifically what the SSAs were supposed to be. I highly doubt this assessment, as you should notice the SSAs specifically saw the removal of Statesman and Sister Psyche from the game, whereas the iTrials have done no such thing concerning Emperor Cole and the Praetors.
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For example, the Penny Yin TF level range starts and ends before the SSA death of Sister Psyche and introduction of Penny as a hero.
The 1-50 timeline mostly follows a level = time passong system - the SSAs follow their own version of levels = time, but it's detatched from the 1-50 system - and the Incarnate storyline follows its own timeline, with the progress of time being measured more by content updates than level shifts.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The devs have said that he's alive and in our hands.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork