A little late... but Tyrant was RIGHT!
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-05-05 14:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Worry not, hero. I won't make your existence on this planet too miserable...before I bring it all burning down to the ground at my feet.
/Dr. Evil laugh
Muaahaha MUAAHAHAAA MUWAAHAHAHAHA!!
Join me now!
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Still doesn't dismiss the villain element. Because, to many villains, they speak to Lady Grey under the conditions of "Sure, I'll help...but I'm taking as much well juice I can carry to increase my incarnate powers to run everything how I want so it's only a matter of time..." and her answer is pretty much "........... .......Granted."
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I seriously doubt any villain would be stupid enough to tell the head of Vanguard, the organization tasked with protecting the planet against such high level threats, that they were indeed only helping to become a much bigger problem further down the road.
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It's not like she's handing those villains the keys to her time travelling phone booth, anyway. Now that would be stupid.
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Originally Posted by G_Savior
I seriously doubt any villain would be stupid enough to tell the head of Vanguard, the organization tasked with protecting the planet against such high level threats, that they were indeed only helping to become a much bigger problem further down the road.
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
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Originally Posted by Reppu
You're suggesting, by no in-game text, Heroes are more than happy to help Villains. You can't cite this, or even begin to cite this. And yet there's cases of organizations like Longbow and Vanguard Sword being absolutely livid about this (although to borderline villainous levels). The fact is, there is no evidence Heroes support this. At all.
And Cole's annihilation is his own doing, nothing more. |
Longbow and Vanguard are quite frequent in fighting eachother [sometimes to the death] too remember
End of the day dont say we're [the ones saying Praetoria is completely evil] the ones wrong when its all about which angle you look at the war
I could quite easily get a big list of instances ingame where a hero has started a conflict/double crossed for the "greater good".Unless Primal Earth defeats the Praetorian Hamidon and rebuilds the place from the ground up, then we are the ones responsible for destroying their world.
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| Hey we saved your planet from destruction by the Hamidon, however to do so we have also destroyed your cities and planets. Yes we know you are without a home now but you are safe! How about you leave your dimension and come live with us? |
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Fairly certain continuing a war who's single justification has been shattered for months, and willingly annihilating his city and populace (evacuation being by Primal Earths hands, mind you. He was willing to 'save' his people through death.) is his own cause.
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Knowing that the city was evacuated like you said and to just destroy us, not his people!
He didnt destroy his people in that people, the city was already being destroyed by the now "free" people of Praetoria [as shown in the new arcs] so there wasnt exactly much of a city left to destroy was there?
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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No. Cole told everyone he DEFEATED the Hamidon and they'd never have to worry about it again. He never defeated the Hamidon. He came to an agreement with it to become the well's champion. When he started the war with us, the Hamidon cut the deal off and decided to come take his city away soon anyways.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
What secret? That he turned Praetoria into a blissful utopia to save mankind from the devouring earth? What a fiend!
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Also he's totally a hero, leaving all those people out in the ward and brainwashing the citizens in his utopia. What a hero.
I used to find Cole almost sympathetic but as of issue 23 he's lost it. He realized he lost and pulled a "If I can't have it no one can!" trick on us in the Mag trial.
Not sure how people aren't able to connect "Blowing up the entire F-ing city" and "Being a terrible and insane person".
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Just curious, if in the same situation (being overrun and on the verge of defeat), would you allow any of your resources to be turned over to the enemy if it could be helped?|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
I used to find Cole almost sympathetic but as of issue 23 he's lost it. He realized he lost and pulled a "If I can't have it no one can!" trick on us in the Mag trial.
Not sure how people aren't able to connect "Blowing up the entire F-ing city" and "Being a terrible and insane person". |
I think it's been established Cole realized the city had been evacuated by Primal Earth (if he would have nuked his own city without that detail is neither here or there)...so purging any potential foothold you can steal from him seems like a **** move, but if you think about those on the opposing team (some of them are power hungry and destructive villains), taking a "if you want to usurp me as the champion and defeat Hamidon, do it yourself. no cheating by using any of my junk" seems reasonable.
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And if Cole were to win that fight, he just destroyed his own resources. Also I'd think he'd prefer us to win, primal heroes/villains or not, over Hamidon.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just curious, if in the same situation (being overrun and on the verge of defeat), would you allow any of your resources to be turned over to the enemy if it could be helped?
I think it's been established Cole realized the city had been evacuated by Primal Earth (if he would have nuked his own city without that detail is neither here or there)...so purging any potential foothold you can steal from him seems like a **** move, but if you think about those on the opposing team (some of them are power hungry and destructive villains), taking a "if you want to usurp me as the champion and defeat Hamidon, do it yourself. no cheating by using any of my junk" seems reasonable. |
A good point, though.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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I thought he put the safety of his people above everything else?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just curious, if in the same situation (being overrun and on the verge of defeat), would you allow any of your resources to be turned over to the enemy if it could be helped?
I think it's been established Cole realized the city had been evacuated by Primal Earth (if he would have nuked his own city without that detail is neither here or there)...so purging any potential foothold you can steal from him seems like a **** move, but if you think about those on the opposing team (some of them are power hungry and destructive villains), taking a "if you want to usurp me as the champion and defeat Hamidon, do it yourself. no cheating by using any of my junk" seems reasonable. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Cole didnt stop the Hamidon to become the champion, he stopped Hamidon to save the world. The well saw the strength of his words/persuasion and this convinced the well to make Cole its champion.| He came to an agreement with it to become the well's champion. When he started the war with us, the Hamidon cut the deal off and decided to come take his city away soon anyways. |
It has been proven many times in this thread that the first blow was struck by Primal Earth, Cole knew that if any sort of conflict with Primal Earth was to spill out into the open in Praetoria that the deal he had struck with Hamidon would be off.
Just thought i'ld correct you
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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The first blow was by Cole. We never attacked Praetorian Earth until they attacked us. Unless bombing Kings Row and Nerva weren't attacks.|
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Cole didnt stop the Hamidon to become the champion, he stopped Hamidon to save the world. The well saw the strength of his words/persuasion and this convinced the well to make Cole its champion.
It has been proven many times in this thread that the first blow was struck by Primal Earth, Cole knew that if any sort of conflict with Primal Earth was to spill out into the open in Praetoria that the deal he had struck with Hamidon would be off. Just thought i'ld correct you |
Also he became the well's champion to STOP Hamidon.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
The first blow was by Cole.
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| Also he became the well's champion to STOP Hamidon. |
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No, false |
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
The first blow was by Cole. We never attacked Praetorian Earth until they attacked us. Unless bombing Kings Row and Nerva weren't attacks.
Also he became the well's champion to STOP Hamidon. |
Infact, the kings row/nerva attacks are quite a distance behind the first blows
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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If I am in that situation then the answer is YES! I surrender and assist the Primals in whatever way I can to defeat our common enemy. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Just curious, if in the same situation (being overrun and on the verge of defeat), would you allow any of your resources to be turned over to the enemy if it could be helped?
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My people are my concern and are the ones who have claim to the city, the art, the building, the culture, and the resources. Not I.
I have two enemies. Hamidon and the Primals.
Hamidon has already wiped out most of my civilization and given the chance will gladly destroy every remaining person from my planet.
The Primals, are made of people like mine and many have accepted the surrender of my soldiers, taken them prisoner and kept them in conditions better then or at least no worse than the ones I have kept my own citizens in.
The Primals who in final days of this war have spent time and resources that could have been used to bring me down, have instead used them to give my people shelter from the final battle and my true enemy Hamidon.
No I would not throw a temper tantrum and destroy everything, I would negotiate a surrender and do my best to make sure my people had a home, and that Hamidon, the first enemy, the enemy who had started all of this was defeated.
It occurred to me as I wrote my last post that unless Emperor Cole was an idiot he must have studied the history of his opponents to see how they fought and to learn how they waged war. That history would have shown him exactly what fate awaited the last Emporer who fought against and was defeated by America and her allies.
That emperor and his people who at the height of the war were hated far more then Cole. An emperor who's military attacked America by surprise during a time of peace and who's military murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians and war prisoners. An emperor with enough authority to order his military and civilians to fight to the end, destroying any thing of value and likely would have seen that order carried out. An emperor who was told by the enemy that only an unconditional surrender would be acceptable and who knew that such a surrender meant he might well be executed by the the enemy.
Emperor Hirohito of Japan surrendered August 15th, 1945. He was allowed to remain emperor of his country. Japan within 20 years of the surrender was once again a major power and within 30 years was winning the automotive trade war with America. 44 years later when Hirohito died he did so knowing that his former enemy had become one of his countries staunchest allies and that Japan was arguably one of the ten most successful countries in the world. Now 66 years later Japanese culture has saturated America. We buy Toyota, Eat sushi, Read manga, and play Pokemon.
World War 2 played out nothing like it did in Primal. They had the Hamidon War instead
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Holditholdit HOLD IT!....|
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
It occurred to me as I wrote my last post that unless Emperor Cole was an idiot he must have studied the history of his opponents to see how they fought and to learn how they waged war. That history would have shown him exactly what fate awaited the last Emporer who fought against and was defeated by America and her allies.
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Now when was it established that Cole is fighting 'America'?
I'd have sworn he's fighting a coalition from chaotic mirror dimension of his own filled with crime, war, destruction and trans-dimensional chaos...or at the least, 2 nations, one of which is ruled by a villain.
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Not according to Paragon Wiki. The developers have had Primal mirror our world in many aspects. This seems to be one of those cases since according to Paragon wiki...|
Originally Posted by Agent White
World War 2 played out nothing like it did in Primal. They had the Hamidon War instead
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"1945...August - Nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.[28] Japan surrenders soon after, but the Imperial Wind [A super powered group] refuses to stop fighting."
Substitute "Imperial Wind" with Extremist Japanese Elements and this is exactly what happened in our world where Hirohito surrendered but some military elements refused and either continued to fight or committed suicide.
Superhero events have been added to our history to make Primal history, but little if any events in the real world have been removed from Primal Earths WWII.
Notice that Battle for Britain, Pearl Harbor, Pacific Theater, DDay, and End of War all take place in the same place at the same time as ours.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/In-game_timeline
Yes. Primal Earth had WW2 play out like ours did. Praetorian Earth, where Emperor Cole is from and who your point was, did not. Praetoria developed nukes sooner and the Hamidon Wars occurred instead. So Cole could not have learned from his own world's history in this case.
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I said in the first post "It occurred to me as I wrote my last post that unless Emperor Cole was an idiot he must have studied the history of his opponents to see how they fought and to learn how they waged war."|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Yes. Primal Earth had WW2 play out like ours did. Praetorian Earth, where Emperor Cole is from and who your point was, did not. Praetoria developed nukes sooner and the Hamidon Wars occurred instead. So Cole could not have learned from his own world's history in this case.
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His current opponents and the one I am referring to is, Primal Earth. If during his many years studying his Primal earth opponents his spies bring him as little information as a publicly available encyclopedia he will learn the points I mentioned and thus see that surrender may well lead to a long and prosperous life for both he and his people.
Oop, missed 'opponents. My mistake
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Where did I say he was fighting America. I implied he could compare his situation to WWII where Japan fought "America AND her allies" a correct statement.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Holditholdit HOLD IT!....
Now when was it established that Cole is fighting 'America'? I'd have sworn he's fighting a coalition from chaotic mirror dimension of his own filled with crime, war, destruction and trans-dimensional chaos...or at the least, 2 nations, one of which is ruled by a villain. |
Even if I had said that Cole was fighting "America and her allies" What's the problem? You acknowledge that one can legitimately say Cole is fighting a coalition of 2 nations. What 2 nations are those? Unless you are playing a different game aren't these two Nations "America and The Rouge Isles." or put another way "America and her allies"
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I wouldn't equate the Rogue Isles to 'and her allies', even the likes of cold-war Russia...but that's just me...not even in the same ballpark. But it's grand how you'll completely ignore one of the driving forces behind the foes that oppose him. Surrendering could as likely be imprisonment under America as it could be death by the Rogue Isles.
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Originally Posted by Cathulhu
Where did I say he was fighting America. I implied he could compare his situation to WWII where Japan fought "America AND her allies" a correct statement.
Even if I had said that Cole was fighting "America and her allies" What's the problem? You acknowledge that one can legitimately say Cole is fighting a coalition of 2 nations. What 2 nations are those? Unless you are playing a different game aren't these two Nations "America and The Rouge Isles." or put another way "America and her allies" |
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I wrote 15 lines of texts discussing WWII, Japan and Cole and you hyper focus for two posts on on my use of the phrase "America and her allies." It is a common term used so that one does not have to list all the countries that were on the allies side durring World War II. This is evidenced by the fact that google searching +"America and her allies" +"WWII" produces 936,000 hits.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I wouldn't equate the Rogue Isles to 'and her allies', even the likes of cold-war Russia...but that's just me...not even in the same ballpark. But it's grand how you'll completely ignore one of the driving forces behind the foes that oppose him. Surrendering could as likely be imprisonment under America as it could be death by the Rogue Isles.
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If you didn't want to discuss my observations than you should have just said so. No need to nit pick a common phrase that has been used for the last 60+ years by historians talking about WWII.
Feel free to argue some more about how I am wrong to use this phrase, Ill let you have the last word since it is pointless to find a real discussion here.
But I wonder, after this war, how many orphanages or metropolitan areas your heroe's lenience have doomed to destruction by an army of incarnated villains...a necessary evil, I suppose.
If I had a say, City of Villains would have never happened. As it never should have.