A little late... but Tyrant was RIGHT!
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-05-05 14:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Anti-matter is confirmed to be alive. In the MoM trial if you speak with Metronome he expresses regret that we didn't kill Praetor Keyes.
Quote:
Ah. I always kind of hoped he'd just join us due to a stronger hate for Cole than us.
|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Anti-matter is confirmed to be alive. In the MoM trial if you speak with Metronome he expresses regret that we didn't kill him Praetor Keyes.
|
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Quote:
Emperor Marcus Cole. Hero of the People.|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
What do you mean "hero"?
|
Edit: Wait, I misunderstood. I was referring to Statesman and Sister Psyche. You're right, hero was the wrong choice of words.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
Besides for us revealing the secrets of Praetoria in TPN.|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Emperor Marcus Cole. Hero of the People.
|
Even then, he's not technically a hero.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Quote:
Sure he is, power of Zeus and everything. He'd fit right in with the rest of the greeks.
|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Besides for us revealing the secrets of Praetoria in TPN.
Even then, he's not technically a hero. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Don't argue with Slaunyeh about the status of Cole right now. He's pseudo in-character, with a stance Emperor Cole and Praetoria are righteous, and 'Primitive Earth' is evil. At this point, if he doesn't accept the game lore for what it is, he's roleplaying a terribly brainwashed individual.
Quote:
What secret? That he turned Praetoria into a blissful utopia to save mankind from the devouring earth? What a fiend!
|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Besides for us revealing the secrets of Praetoria in TPN.
Even then, he's not technically a hero. |
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
Someone has to stand up for the little guy. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Don't argue with Slaunyeh about the status of Cole right now. He's pseudo in-character, with a stance Emperor Cole and Praetoria are righteous, and 'Primitive Earth' is evil. At this point, if he doesn't accept the game lore for what it is, he's roleplaying a terribly brainwashed individual.
|
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
And I use to stand up for Emperor Cole, but after Underground and due to I23, that's just not something I can stomach doing anymore. I was really, really hoping he'd have a bit of a turn-around after the Duray incident and the attempt to save Primal Earth from the Seed of Hamdion, but eh...|
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Someone has to stand up for the little guy.
|
You don't always get good writing.
Quote:
The little guy always loses out to the greater good - that's why we're here to rescue him |
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh
Someone has to stand up for the little guy.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Tyrant had Duray replaced by a clone, so the clone could still be alive, and Siege can upload his AI to any machine, so there's a chance he could have escaped after the BAF - plus, there's a hint that Mother Mayhem mightn't be totally destroyed, and stuill have part of her lurking in the Seer network.
|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
What do you mean "hero"?
Also some Praetorians it's confirmed we killed: Malaise Praetor Tilman Diabolique Col. Duray(Well WE didn't...) Nightstar & Siege Possibly killed: Anti-Matter Tyrant(As of i23 trial) Shadow Hunter(As of i23 trial) Swan(I23 trial) Chimera(I23 trial) Neuron & Bobcat(Seeing as the message "Bobcat seeks vengeance!" appears across your screen...) It IS a war, after all. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
There's still the matter of heroes working with villains. To say Primal is largely good inherently downplays villains and most (if not all) are even bothering to help out of personal gain. Heck, arguably the heroes are mostly helping out of personal gain. So they can be the champions of the well instead of Cole. To lead a battalion of power-greedy slaughterers is inherently 'not largely good'. In the spirit of the game, Cole may be simply defending his power so he can make sure he can keep up with Hamidon.
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
He had an excuse. He no longer has one. At this point, as I said before, he's an overgrown child who has to be right, and is willing to destroy everything if he HAS to be wrong. He is no hero, not anymore. He is a villain. A complicated one, but a villain none the less. There is nothing truly 'tragic' about him anymore. Not due to i23.
Villainize Primal Earth as much as you need to, but this was Tyrant's own undoing. You're still (largely) wrong on Portal Corps methods (again, kill all in dimensions you're monitoring is a choice. I personally have always stealthed them for minimum casualities, rendering your barbaric argument null and void. The requirement is NOT a kill all. That is your option, as a villain.) Primal Earth is largely 'Good', with it's pockets of Evil and many shades of Gray. Praetoria's command is largely 'Evil', with it's pockets of Good and many shades of Gray. Deal with it, or don't! But certain people shouldn't dig up the past and try to paint my entire argument as an RP Absolutist God-Complex... thing. More like "Read the lore you keep citing." |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
There's still the matter of heroes working with villains.
|
Let me stop you... there. Again, necessary evil. When it comes to my personal roleplay, Villain Assistance is an absolute last resort, and has to come as a direct, higher-in-command order (Lady Grey, so on). To suggest it be willing and openly embraced is something my character personally scoffs at. A mission's a mission, even if she's terribly unhappy about the circumstances.
As for people only helping to become the Champion themselves, I have to admit to not liking that being railroaded in, and would like if Paragon pursued the options of people either wanting to become Champion themselves, or stressing that some people are simply doing it because a Hero is willing to make those sacrifices.
A lot of my issues with the Incarnate Arc is the level of... doucheyness that we, the players, are toward Prometheus. It plays us all up as being power-hungry and self-centered jerks. Unless it's to show us the Well is slowly making us more egotistical and insane. If so, well, bravo? But I don't like being railroaded.
In the end, my heroes do what they do because they have to. A hero will do whatever it takes, within reason, for the greater good. If that means shouldering the sins of a villain as they stop a greater threat, so be it.
But she will very, VERY often tell them to pike off if she seems them in Pocket D, or GOD FORBID the "Villains but are Hero Labeled for Easier Leveling" are known to her. They even get party kicked with an apology for it, OOCly. ;P
Quote:
The same argument can be made for Cole.
| Again, necessary evil. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Still doesn't dismiss the villain element. Because, to many villains, they speak to Lady Grey under the conditions of "Sure, I'll help...but I'm taking as much well juice I can carry to increase my incarnate powers to run everything how I want so it's only a matter of time..." and her answer is pretty much "........... .......Granted."
You'd have to be pretty dense, as a hero, to not know this and beyond desperate to the point of insanity to actually pick up the axe and march into battle and not do everything in your power to resolve things some other way. Yup, Cole basically throws in all his chips in an effort to win...but heroes are doing the exact same thing...
And villains reap the rewards, of course...
...that is, unless those heroes are desperate to grab at that well juice too in order to attain a balance. Just admit it! You're no pure and shining light of justice, hero! An ounce of grey is worth the world in darkness for many villains but a hero attempting to justify the means is but a step away from black.
Quote:
One possibility is that by depowering him to be a normal person again, it could set up some kind of showdown with Crazy Calvin, with neither of them coming out alive.
|
Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer
That would be an interesting idea to have him come back more powerful and seek vengeance on the Incarnates who destroyed his dreams. Although, I will say that if he himself is not dead, his reputation as a 'benign' ruler is. (Of course it's been declining since the events of the TPN Campus trial.)
Sometimes the destruction of your reputation is worse than the destruction of your physical self. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Not really |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And villains reap the rewards, of course...
...that is, unless those heroes are desperate to grab at that well juice too in order to attain a balance. Just admit it! You're no pure and shining light of justice, hero! An ounce of grey is worth the world in darkness for many villains but a hero attempting to justify the means is but a step away from black. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
I doubt the villains flat-out say that. Again, you're making assumptions for your case and this is getting tiring in this thread. And assuming all heroes is doing the same thing... ugh. Done responding to this line of questioning.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Still doesn't dismiss the villain element. Because, to many villains, they speak to Lady Grey under the conditions of "Sure, I'll help...but I'm taking as much well juice I can carry to increase my incarnate powers to run everything how I want so it's only a matter of time..." and her answer is pretty much "........... .......Granted."
You'd have to be pretty dense, as a hero, to not know this and beyond desperate to the point of insanity to actually pick up the axe and march into battle and not do everything in your power to resolve things some other way. Yup, Cole basically throws in all his chips in an effort to win...but heroes are doing the exact same thing... And villains reap the rewards, of course... ...that is, unless those heroes are desperate to grab at that well juice too in order to attain a balance. Just admit it! You're no pure and shining light of justice, hero! An ounce of grey is worth the world in darkness for many villains but a hero attempting to justify the means is but a step away from black. |
Making assumptions based off nothing but your own perceptions of the game is silly. Go by the lore or don't go anywhere.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arilou
The same argument can be made for Cole.
|
Quote:
And how is going off a Villains perception of the game different from:|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Making assumptions based off nothing but your own perceptions of the game is silly. Go by the lore or don't go anywhere.
|
"To suggest it be willing and openly embraced is something my character personally scoffs at. A mission's a mission, even if she's terribly unhappy about the circumstances."
Which is a hero perspective. I suppose if you're basically handwaving villains involvement away, as if they're *only* helping out of the goodness of their heart or even their own self-preservation.
Quote:
| It's almost like you haven't read the thread. |
Even if Cole is having a temper-tantrum, a *true* hero would still have compassion for their enemy...but I guess annihilating him is just as good.
Quote:
I find it quite easy |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But it's hard being right
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
You're suggesting, by no in-game text, Heroes are more than happy to help Villains. You can't cite this, or even begin to cite this. And yet there's cases of organizations like Longbow and Vanguard Sword being absolutely livid about this (although to borderline villainous levels). The fact is, there is no evidence Heroes support this. At all.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And how is going off a Villains perception of the game different from:
"To suggest it be willing and openly embraced is something my character personally scoffs at. A mission's a mission, even if she's terribly unhappy about the circumstances." Which is a hero perspective. I suppose if you're basically handwaving villains involvement away, as if they're *only* helping out of the goodness of their heart or even their own self-preservation. I have and heroes seem to always try to justify their own failings, in more than just the i-trials. It gets down to the meat of what a hero actually is: someone who tries to help everybody and do the right thing. But it's hard being right and it's impossible to rescue the world. Rescue hostage from mission but fail? "Oh, we teleported them out just in time!" Alexis dies? "Bah, the writers suck!" Have to work with villains? "Pfft, that's not my hero's perception!" Excuses excuses. Even the best of the best screw up, to turn one's nose up to those who may once have been a hero is practically the opposite of a hero. Even if Cole is having a temper-tantrum, a *true* hero would still have compassion for their enemy...but I guess annihilating him is just as good. |
And Cole's annihilation is his own doing, nothing more.
Quote:
I could have sworn Cole's annihilation was our doing. What with the entire "punching him in the face until he explodes" thing.
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
You're suggesting, by no in-game text, Heroes are more than happy to help Villains. You can't cite this, or even begin to cite this. And yet there's cases of organizations like Longbow and Vanguard Sword being absolutely livid about this (although to borderline villainous levels). The fact is, there is no evidence Heroes support this. At all.
And Cole's annihilation is his own doing, nothing more. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Quote:
Fairly certain continuing a war who's single justification has been shattered for months, and willingly annihilating his city and populace (evacuation being by Primal Earths hands, mind you. He was willing to 'save' his people through death.) is his own cause.
|
Originally Posted by Arilou
I could have sworn Cole's annihilation was our doing. What with the entire "punching him in the face until he explodes" thing.
|
Quote:
I didn't say they were more than happy to. I say they're not actively seeking more heroic means of resolving things. You speak of the 'greater good' and 'necessary evil' but that's the *villain's* reasons for their actions in this war...|
Originally Posted by Reppu
You're suggesting, by no in-game text, Heroes are more than happy to help Villains.
|
But I wonder, after this war, how many orphanages or metropolitan areas your heroe's lenience have doomed to destruction by an army of incarnated villains...a necessary evil, I suppose.
Also some Praetorians it's confirmed we killed:
Malaise
Praetor Tilman
Diabolique
Col. Duray(Well WE didn't...)
Nightstar & Siege
Possibly killed:
Anti-Matter
Tyrant(As of i23 trial)
Shadow Hunter(As of i23 trial)
Swan(I23 trial)
Chimera(I23 trial)
Neuron & Bobcat(Seeing as the message "Bobcat seeks vengeance!" appears across your screen...)
It IS a war, after all.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara