A little late... but Tyrant was RIGHT!

Hmm.

Tyrant's "popularity" needed a little help to keep it going

Hear, hear!

But of course I do acknowledge the reality of the game even if the fictional background is much more flexible.

Read my post again. I even said Primal has messed up more than enough. But to villainize the planet as a whole for isolated mistakes is stupid.

Except I didn't? Back off for a bit, and reread my post. They are villainizing Primal Earth because they believe Praetoria to be entirely innocent. To believe so is villainous, period. It's nothing to do with roleplaying. Praetoria is villainous, but not as a whole. There are instances of 'good' in it, but Emperor Cole is not a 'hero'. He is a 'necessary evil'. And he's not a generic villain, either. Things went horribly for him, but he made horrible decisions all on his own.

If having my own opinion, which is shared by others, makes me an RP absolutist? Okay, sure. You're wrong, but okay. That's your opinion, I guess. I'm allowed to express mine, and defend it. And also defend Primal Earth when it's being pointlessly villainized. Welcome to debate. Enjoy your stay. Or don't. You seem to just want to pick a fight.

... And are another dirty Cole Supporter so go die in the explosion in i23, please.

PS: Note the bolded portions. Your 'summary' of my post is an attack on the beliefs I had when posting the post, the intentions of it. Your choice of persona for me, being strongly negative, results in two clear cases of ad hominem. IE: Pointing out a negative, although faux, trait of my self, and twisting and manipulating the intentional belief of my post. "Reppu is a roleplaying elitist so they're wrong hurhur".

So, you're wrong. "Next Up" was "Just Then".

You're free to pick apart my argument, but try not to be a hypocrite next time and actually point out what I've done wrong. Or are you just another internet tough guy? Hm. Or you're just angry. Leaning toward angry.

No. You're still lacking proof. You're saying Primal Earth attacks every dimension it vists and says those dimensions are unaware or innocent themselves. You can't prove that.

Also, stop the pseudo-roleplaying. It's creepy.

I never said he wanted mass genocide. NONE of this post is relevant aside from his execution of Duray for being a ******. I cheered for that. I thought Emperor Cole may realize that he had a potential ally to work with, with the Hamidon angered.

Let's lay it out flat; Emperor Cole, once he realized the Hamidon was mobilizing, no longer had his SINGULAR EXCUSE, aside POSSIBLY from Maelstrom lying his head off, to continue his attack on Primal Earth. The Hamdion was already stirred. Perhaps he felt it was too far in to back off. Maybe this is true. But, BUT, he could have, COULD HAVE, very well tried to negotiate a peace treaty with the revelation that his actions were to stop the wrath of the Hamidon.

We became aware that THIS was his motivation for the war. To put a stop to Primal Earth so the Hamidon wouldn't be angered. That failed. He could have, RIGHT after the Underground Trial, decided "Okay, we're BOTH in a lot of trouble now. We need to work together." Would it have gone over successfully? Possibly not, but possibly so.

To paint Praetoria as innocent, and to villainize Primal Earth, is arrogant. To paint Praetoria as evil, and to paint Primal Earth as innocent, is also arrogant! BOTH sides are guilty in some capacity, but Praetoria COULD have pulled back after Underground/The Hamidon Invasion of Primal Earth.

Emperor Cole, at this point, CHOSE to continue his invasion despite his plan falling. At this point, it's a child not wanting to give up his truck when he's been bad. He HAS to be right. He's felt he's ALWAYS been right. He CAN'T be wrong. He KNOWS best.

THOSE are his flaws. This is why he's a villain. He's a complicated villain, but a villain none the less. Accept it if you wish. Deny it if you want.

But you're villains, in the end, if you support Emperor Cole in the state he is in now.

In a roleplaying sense, mind. I'm sure you're all upstanding individuals otherwise. Just, yeah. Debating the issue at hand; Emperor Cole is no longer a hero. If he ever was.

Primal Earth has it's evils, but it's not as bad as many would paint out. Or as good as others would. It has it's Goods, it's Bads, and it's Grays. Accept all three, don't absolute one or the other.



As for roleplaying, you're all free to do what you like. I don't have to accept it, nor do you have to accept my own opinions. That's... kind of what spirited debate is all about. I'm not trying to use ad hominem when I say you're villains. Just, you're supporting a, if not conflicted, villain. There's no ways around it. Emperor Cole IS a villain now. A hero in the past, perhaps, but a villain now. But, that may be my opinion. Some of you view him as the 'True Hero'. I disagree. His tactics are heavy handed and his methods are brutal. He has some restrain as an honorable villain, but so does Scirocco. And sadly, Scirocco is also a villain.

You wouldn't call Scirocco a hero just because he's noble and has morals, would you? And he has an excuse, he IS cursed. Emperor Cole COULD have put a stop to the invasion when his ambition was shattered, and he was already on the brink of losing EVERYTHING. Instead of losing EVERYTHING, he COULD Have worked out a truce, if not a shaky one, and fight the 'True Threat'. He's chosen not to. He has to be right. He is absolute.

Oh, and due to I23, he no longer has ANY excuse to be viewed as a 'hero'. So, let's acknowledge that too. The man is a child scorned, now. Due to his own failures, and sadly some bad decisions from Primal Earth. But, mostly, his own failures.

Accept it or not, I don't care. Spirited debate, and so on. These opinions have been fascinating, but I disagree with Primal Earth being purely and utterly evil. That nonsense has to end,

He had an excuse. He no longer has one. At this point, as I said before, he's an overgrown child who has to be right, and is willing to destroy everything if he HAS to be wrong. He is no hero, not anymore. He is a villain. A complicated one, but a villain none the less. There is nothing truly 'tragic' about him anymore. Not due to i23.

Villainize Primal Earth as much as you need to, but this was Tyrant's own undoing. You're still (largely) wrong on Portal Corps methods (again, kill all in dimensions you're monitoring is a choice. I personally have always stealthed them for minimum casualities, rendering your barbaric argument null and void. The requirement is NOT a kill all. That is your option, as a villain.)

Primal Earth is largely 'Good', with it's pockets of Evil and many shades of Gray.

Praetoria's command is largely 'Evil', with it's pockets of Good and many shades of Gray.

Deal with it, or don't! But certain people shouldn't dig up the past and try to paint my entire argument as an RP Absolutist God-Complex... thing. More like "Read the lore you keep citing."

^This.


You know, I have you on my globals and never seem to talk to you. I forgot how we met...It was either through us both agreeing on someone being stupid in the Roleplayers channel or through some friend I think.

Not sure which. One or both!

Probably both. I'll have to come annoy-I mean talk to you sometime.

But yeah.

Tyrant's a lunatic now. He's reached that "Last Resort" stage villains get where all their cunningness fades and they go berserk. Zant in Twilight Princess is a blunt example.

Right. As I've said, he was arguably a Hero at some point, but I prefer the term 'necessary evil', considering the state Praetoria is. Drugging and psychic-mind-washing your populace is not Heroic. At all. Even if your intentions are for the survival of all, that's not Heroic. Lawful Evil, maybe, if we need to use a tag.

A Hero once, a Villain once he came into power. A 'Necessary Evil', which quickly turned into 'Temper-Tantrum Child Scorned' when things didn't go his way. His role was played, and his villainy fully exposed. What MAY have once been a Hero, died long ago.

While I'm glad he didn't get a face heel turn so we can get the climatic final battle with him, I'm almost sad he didn't get some epic moment of redemption and a final battle against Praetorian Hamidon to die as the hero Praetoria needed all along. I guess that's too anime of me, though.

I was hoping for that, but nope. Oh well.

Primal Earth foreva! Down with teh evil empuror!

Well that doesnt sound very heroic does it

You could however say that the reason is did go to such extremes in i23 is because yes he realised he has lost. But by losing, Praetoria has lost their one superpowered individual who was able to stand toe to toe with the Hamidon beast.
He knows that Hamidon is now awake, that Hamidon will be on a warpath once more. With Primal Earth freeing the civilians [and thus causing a LOT of chaos as the new arcs in i23 show] Hamidon will almost certainly step in to try and wipe us out. With no [currently] heroes strong enough to stop the Hamidon, what hope does Praetoria have?
His words of "look what you have made me do!" could mean so much more. He is trying to wipe us out by any means so he can rebuild Praetoria and hopefully convince the Hamidon one final time to give humanity a chance of peace.

Like it or not, we could have protected our dimension from within our own like we have done so many times already. We didnt have to go there and conquer them, by doing so we have caused more destruction and chaos than there ever was and awoken a monster that nothing can kill currently.
Cole looking across to our dimension as a place of chaos and destruction is spot on. Nobody can say otherwise.

Actually Hamidon was in a state of sleep lets say He was awakened/resumed his war with humans by the war

Pretty close actually. Maelstrom's part of it and the other players that were involved can be found here.

That would be an interesting idea to have him come back more powerful and seek vengeance on the Incarnates who destroyed his dreams. Although, I will say that if he himself is not dead, his reputation as a 'benign' ruler is. (Of course it's been declining since the events of the TPN Campus trial.)

Sometimes the destruction of your reputation is worse than the destruction of your physical self.

You just know hes going to fuse with Hami in some form

Hamole?
Cami?

Wouldn't be the first hero they have killed off, recently, so I wouldn't put it past them. But here's hoping it's not permanent!