Originally Posted by Golden Girl
![]() about as many scraps of common sense left as friends and allies
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A little late... but Tyrant was RIGHT!
Despite everything, he was still more popular than Statesman
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Wouldn't be the first time someone had assumed they were the centre of the universe.
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But of course I do acknowledge the reality of the game even if the fictional background is much more flexible.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
I think you two are doing the opposite, attempting to paint Primal Earth (and Longbow) as shining light heroes and their targets as simply villains. I suppose that works in those old comics but all things considered and taken into perspective, it's *REALLY REALLY HARD* to be a shining-light do-no-wrong hero. There will always be mistakes. There will always be misunderstandings. So long as the response is violence, even in the face of violence, you will never truly be a shining-light. You will be, in someone's perspective, oppressing another.
But that's more taking things to the extreme. Not going quite that far, seeing things from the perspective of others should help guide your actions and it very often seems they don't for heroes in CoX. |
Glad to see Reppu is once again flinging personal attacks wrapped in "I am the RP god and you will listen to me or you're a n00b" statements.
That said, thread milestone achieved! The term Hyperbole has been used! Coming up next: ad hominem! |
If having my own opinion, which is shared by others, makes me an RP absolutist? Okay, sure. You're wrong, but okay. That's your opinion, I guess. I'm allowed to express mine, and defend it. And also defend Primal Earth when it's being pointlessly villainized. Welcome to debate. Enjoy your stay. Or don't. You seem to just want to pick a fight.
... And are another dirty Cole Supporter so go die in the explosion in i23, please.
PS: Note the bolded portions. Your 'summary' of my post is an attack on the beliefs I had when posting the post, the intentions of it. Your choice of persona for me, being strongly negative, results in two clear cases of ad hominem. IE: Pointing out a negative, although faux, trait of my self, and twisting and manipulating the intentional belief of my post. "Reppu is a roleplaying elitist so they're wrong hurhur".
So, you're wrong. "Next Up" was "Just Then".
You're free to pick apart my argument, but try not to be a hypocrite next time and actually point out what I've done wrong. Or are you just another internet tough guy? Hm. Or you're just angry. Leaning toward angry.
Do not obfuscate the truth with cries for "proof" in a thinly veiled attempt to circumvent evidence obtained from Primitive Earth's own agents, send to destroy the last vestiges of humanity in the multiverse.
The Bold Defenders of True Earth do not answer to so-called primals. We have a much higher calling than Primitive Earth's petty warmongering. (Also, it's right there. In the quoted text.) |
Also, stop the pseudo-roleplaying. It's creepy.
If you ran the UG trial you would know that this is false.
The War Walkers were built to not fight at full potential when there was any civilian presence around. Tyrant EXECUTES the commander of one of his forces who ignores this and deliberately attacks skyway(?) with hamidon spores, and he abandons Valkyrie for causing damage to the city as well, AND he sends Duncan to try and put a stop to Mot. And he is somehow a generic, card carrying villain? |
Let's lay it out flat; Emperor Cole, once he realized the Hamidon was mobilizing, no longer had his SINGULAR EXCUSE, aside POSSIBLY from Maelstrom lying his head off, to continue his attack on Primal Earth. The Hamdion was already stirred. Perhaps he felt it was too far in to back off. Maybe this is true. But, BUT, he could have, COULD HAVE, very well tried to negotiate a peace treaty with the revelation that his actions were to stop the wrath of the Hamidon.
We became aware that THIS was his motivation for the war. To put a stop to Primal Earth so the Hamidon wouldn't be angered. That failed. He could have, RIGHT after the Underground Trial, decided "Okay, we're BOTH in a lot of trouble now. We need to work together." Would it have gone over successfully? Possibly not, but possibly so.
To paint Praetoria as innocent, and to villainize Primal Earth, is arrogant. To paint Praetoria as evil, and to paint Primal Earth as innocent, is also arrogant! BOTH sides are guilty in some capacity, but Praetoria COULD have pulled back after Underground/The Hamidon Invasion of Primal Earth.
Emperor Cole, at this point, CHOSE to continue his invasion despite his plan falling. At this point, it's a child not wanting to give up his truck when he's been bad. He HAS to be right. He's felt he's ALWAYS been right. He CAN'T be wrong. He KNOWS best.
THOSE are his flaws. This is why he's a villain. He's a complicated villain, but a villain none the less. Accept it if you wish. Deny it if you want.
But you're villains, in the end, if you support Emperor Cole in the state he is in now.
In a roleplaying sense, mind. I'm sure you're all upstanding individuals otherwise. Just, yeah. Debating the issue at hand; Emperor Cole is no longer a hero. If he ever was.
Primal Earth has it's evils, but it's not as bad as many would paint out. Or as good as others would. It has it's Goods, it's Bads, and it's Grays. Accept all three, don't absolute one or the other.
As for roleplaying, you're all free to do what you like. I don't have to accept it, nor do you have to accept my own opinions. That's... kind of what spirited debate is all about. I'm not trying to use ad hominem when I say you're villains. Just, you're supporting a, if not conflicted, villain. There's no ways around it. Emperor Cole IS a villain now. A hero in the past, perhaps, but a villain now. But, that may be my opinion. Some of you view him as the 'True Hero'. I disagree. His tactics are heavy handed and his methods are brutal. He has some restrain as an honorable villain, but so does Scirocco. And sadly, Scirocco is also a villain.
You wouldn't call Scirocco a hero just because he's noble and has morals, would you? And he has an excuse, he IS cursed. Emperor Cole COULD have put a stop to the invasion when his ambition was shattered, and he was already on the brink of losing EVERYTHING. Instead of losing EVERYTHING, he COULD Have worked out a truce, if not a shaky one, and fight the 'True Threat'. He's chosen not to. He has to be right. He is absolute.
Oh, and due to I23, he no longer has ANY excuse to be viewed as a 'hero'. So, let's acknowledge that too. The man is a child scorned, now. Due to his own failures, and sadly some bad decisions from Primal Earth. But, mostly, his own failures.
Accept it or not, I don't care. Spirited debate, and so on. These opinions have been fascinating, but I disagree with Primal Earth being purely and utterly evil. That nonsense has to end,
as a reformed Villain Mastermind i have to say that yes Tyrant did many bad things but it was the worlds Govement that turned the world inside out, what Praetoria needs is Pendragon and a new group both Praetoria and Primal to guide him make the world better, have supes dive in and kick the hell out of the DE expand Praetoria place by place, or do u want another stupid world Govement just to press the big red button to start nuking again, Tyrant wasnt all that bad he did what he thought was best to keep his small world safe which i may add WAS GIVEN to him, Primal Earth is full of chaos and half wits like Recluse bet Battalion are getting some good viewing entertainment.
*Union* Dark lord of mercs and cookies!
@EU Great Cthulhu
A nuke, though? That'd wipe out ALL of his city. No one would be left to populate his rebuilt "utopia". Then again, CoH logic.
Also Reppu's actually right. There are a lot of good people in Praetoria. Noble Savage, the carnival of light, the warden resistance, and plenty of forgotten badlanders in the ward. Tyrant's official bio kind of sums the whole thing up, though. As does the Underground's ending.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
A nuke, though? That'd wipe out ALL of his city. No one would be left to populate his rebuilt "utopia". Then again, CoH logic.
Also Reppu's actually right. There are a lot of good people in Praetoria. Noble Savage, the carnival of light, the warden resistance, and plenty of forgotten badlanders in the ward. Tyrant's official bio kind of sums the whole thing up, though. As does the Underground's ending. |
Villainize Primal Earth as much as you need to, but this was Tyrant's own undoing. You're still (largely) wrong on Portal Corps methods (again, kill all in dimensions you're monitoring is a choice. I personally have always stealthed them for minimum casualities, rendering your barbaric argument null and void. The requirement is NOT a kill all. That is your option, as a villain.)
Primal Earth is largely 'Good', with it's pockets of Evil and many shades of Gray.
Praetoria's command is largely 'Evil', with it's pockets of Good and many shades of Gray.
Deal with it, or don't! But certain people shouldn't dig up the past and try to paint my entire argument as an RP Absolutist God-Complex... thing. More like "Read the lore you keep citing."
You know, I have you on my globals and never seem to talk to you. I forgot how we met...It was either through us both agreeing on someone being stupid in the Roleplayers channel or through some friend I think.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
But yeah.
Tyrant's a lunatic now. He's reached that "Last Resort" stage villains get where all their cunningness fades and they go berserk. Zant in Twilight Princess is a blunt example.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Probably both. I'll have to come annoy-I mean talk to you sometime.
But yeah. Tyrant's a lunatic now. He's reached that "Last Resort" stage villains get where all their cunningness fades and they go berserk. Zant in Twilight Princess is a blunt example. |
A Hero once, a Villain once he came into power. A 'Necessary Evil', which quickly turned into 'Temper-Tantrum Child Scorned' when things didn't go his way. His role was played, and his villainy fully exposed. What MAY have once been a Hero, died long ago.
Right. As I've said, he was arguably a Hero at some point, but I prefer the term 'necessary evil', considering the state Praetoria is. Drugging and psychic-mind-washing your populace is not Heroic. At all. Even if your intentions are for the survival of all, that's not Heroic. Lawful Evil, maybe, if we need to use a tag.
A Hero once, a Villain once he came into power. A 'Necessary Evil', which quickly turned into 'Temper-Tantrum Child Scorned' when things didn't go his way. His role was played, and his villainy fully exposed. What MAY have once been a Hero, died long ago. |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
While I'm glad he didn't get a face heel turn so we can get the climatic final battle with him, I'm almost sad he didn't get some epic moment of redemption and a final battle against Praetorian Hamidon to die as the hero Praetoria needed all along. I guess that's too anime of me, though.
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Primal Earth foreva! Down with teh evil empuror!
Right. As I've said, he was arguably a Hero at some point, but I prefer the term 'necessary evil', considering the state Praetoria is. Drugging and psychic-mind-washing your populace is not Heroic. At all. Even if your intentions are for the survival of all, that's not Heroic. Lawful Evil, maybe, if we need to use a tag.
A Hero once, a Villain once he came into power. A 'Necessary Evil', which quickly turned into 'Temper-Tantrum Child Scorned' when things didn't go his way. His role was played, and his villainy fully exposed. What MAY have once been a Hero, died long ago. |
You could however say that the reason is did go to such extremes in i23 is because yes he realised he has lost. But by losing, Praetoria has lost their one superpowered individual who was able to stand toe to toe with the Hamidon beast.
He knows that Hamidon is now awake, that Hamidon will be on a warpath once more. With Primal Earth freeing the civilians [and thus causing a LOT of chaos as the new arcs in i23 show] Hamidon will almost certainly step in to try and wipe us out. With no [currently] heroes strong enough to stop the Hamidon, what hope does Praetoria have?
His words of "look what you have made me do!" could mean so much more. He is trying to wipe us out by any means so he can rebuild Praetoria and hopefully convince the Hamidon one final time to give humanity a chance of peace.
Like it or not, we could have protected our dimension from within our own like we have done so many times already. We didnt have to go there and conquer them, by doing so we have caused more destruction and chaos than there ever was and awoken a monster that nothing can kill currently.
Cole looking across to our dimension as a place of chaos and destruction is spot on. Nobody can say otherwise.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Actually, Cole knew Hamidon was awake all along. He never beat Hamidon in the first place.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Actually, Cole knew Hamidon was awake all along. He never beat Hamidon in the first place.
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Actually Hamidon was in a state of sleep lets say
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@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
The way I understand the timeline it goes something like this:
-Some organization from Primal (not Portal Corp) discovers Praetoria, sends Maelstrom & his companion there. Maelstrom switches sides.
-Cole dispatches people to figure out what the heck is going on with those Primals snooping around, hence Marauder's Cell and the attempted kidnapping of Statesman. He starts gearing up for invasion. (old arcs)
-Both Arachnos and Longbow/Vanguard start infiltrating Praetoria, at the same time Powers Division is infiltrating Paragon City (Twinshot arc)
-Our Praetorian PC's delay the invasion (by whatever means) in the final Praetoria arcs.
-Cole sends Battle Maiden to invade (Atlas TF) the primal incarnates strike back and essentialyl wreck the invasion force (Tin Mage TF)
-At the same time the Durays team up and launch a diversionary invasion (Sutter TF)
-With the invasion defeated, Cole is now on the defensive. He starts by trying to take out the Resistance (BAF trial) but is stopped, the incarnates then proceed to wreck Lamba Sector (Lambda trial) and the Keyes Island Reactor, pretty much ending any threat of invasion.
-The fighting starts to wake the Hamidon up, who proceeds to pretty much declare war on Praetoria. (UG trial) Desdemona assumes leadership of the Carnival of Light.
-The incarnates attack the TPN network to try to break Tyrant's hold on the praetorian population, Maelstrom is defeated. (TPN trial)
-With no more propaganda, Mother Mayhem turns on the psychic sledgehammer. The incarnates stop her. (Minds of Mayhem trial)
-The DA arcs, Praetor Duncan slips over to Primal Earth, Mot is defeated, Diabolique attempts to take control of him but the incarnates and Dream Doctor stops her (DD trial)
I23 stuff:
-Chimera in desperation gathers what remaining supers he can into a new group of Praetors. Imperial City is liberated. (Sword of the Emperor arc)
-Nova Praetoria is evacuated, Lord Recluse tries to beat the incarnates to the punch (and stealing Cole's technology) but is defeated by Cole.
-The incarnates invade the Magisterium, beating Cole's Praetors, in desperation he blows up the Magisterium but it is not enough and Cole is defeated.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
The way I understand the timeline it goes something like this:
-Some organization from Primal (not Portal Corp) discovers Praetoria, sends Maelstrom & his companion there. Maelstrom switches sides. -Cole dispatches people to figure out what the heck is going on with those Primals snooping around, hence Marauder's Cell and the attempted kidnapping of Statesman. He starts gearing up for invasion. (old arcs) -Both Arachnos and Longbow/Vanguard start infiltrating Praetoria, at the same time Powers Division is infiltrating Paragon City (Twinshot arc) -Our Praetorian PC's delay the invasion (by whatever means) in the final Praetoria arcs. -Cole sends Battle Maiden to invade (Atlas TF) the primal incarnates strike back and essentialyl wreck the invasion force (Tin Mage TF) -At the same time the Durays team up and launch a diversionary invasion (Sutter TF) -With the invasion defeated, Cole is now on the defensive. He starts by trying to take out the Resistance (BAF trial) but is stopped, the incarnates then proceed to wreck Lamba Sector (Lambda trial) and the Keyes Island Reactor, pretty much ending any threat of invasion. -The fighting starts to wake the Hamidon up, who proceeds to pretty much declare war on Praetoria. (UG trial) Desdemona assumes leadership of the Carnival of Light. -The incarnates attack the TPN network to try to break Tyrant's hold on the praetorian population, Maelstrom is defeated. (TPN trial) -With no more propaganda, Mother Mayhem turns on the psychic sledgehammer. The incarnates stop her. (Minds of Mayhem trial) -The DA arcs, Praetor Duncan slips over to Primal Earth, Mot is defeated, Diabolique attempts to take control of him but the incarnates and Dream Doctor stops her (DD trial) I23 stuff: -Chimera in desperation gathers what remaining supers he can into a new group of Praetors. Imperial City is liberated. (Sword of the Emperor arc) -Nova Praetoria is evacuated, Lord Recluse tries to beat the incarnates to the punch (and stealing Cole's technology) but is defeated by Cole. -The incarnates invade the Magisterium, beating Cole's Praetors, in desperation he blows up the Magisterium but it is not enough and Cole is defeated. |
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
I haven't been on the beta, but do they explicitly state whether or not the incarnates kill Tyrant? ... or we going to have another rommie where we assume he's dead but later find out he isnt
I haven't been on the beta, but do they explicitly state whether or not the incarnates kill Tyrant? ... or we going to have another rommie where we assume he's dead but later find out he isnt
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Sometimes the destruction of your reputation is worse than the destruction of your physical self.
![](http://i45.tinypic.com/5vvcxk.jpg)
![](http://i55.tinypic.com/6t2qgk.jpg)
Villains are those who dedicate their lives to causing mayhem. Villians are people from the planet Villia!
I sincerely doubt he's alive. His Personal Story had a very "preparing to die" feel to it.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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