Suggestion: add a 'Trading Fee' for using the /ah command
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-04-28 11:59 in Suggestions and Ideas
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I get the idea you're after, but other than the nekkid hill in Talos all those spots are weren't so much discovered as colonized- when you combine services with relatively congenial geography the 'hotspot' aspect is inevitable. |
Originally Posted by Tidbit Jr.
This is just my opinion, but gathering spots shouldn't be made so much as discovered.
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Markets, pre-AH command, were instant hotspots...rather like creating an artificial reef from old cars.
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I want to butt in - what makes Pocket D special is that it was designed with the express purpose of being a gathering spot. Granted, that never actually worked (not on any of the servers I play on), but that was the point of the location first and foremost, and all of its other functions were secondary to that. I can see a Market and a Vault and vendors and whatnot being there, for the convenience of the patrons, but this is a place that people seek out for its social aspect, as there's just about nothing in there that you can't go elsewhere for. Null the Gull is unique, yes, but pretty much everything else has alternatives.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm curious: from your perspective, what specifically makes Pocket D more of an appropriate socialization spot than the markets, or for that matter any other random spot? Are those properties, whatever they are, transplantable to the market locations in theory, or is there something about Pocket D that makes it impossible for the markets to have the same properties?
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In short, Pocket D is a place that you have to make a choice to go to, and that choice has little else to inform it than social interaction, and the occasional really terrible event.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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There are a number of things that make Pocket D more appropriate for socialization than the markets. First and foremost, there's the original purpose of the markets--the market contacts. The more people crowd around them, the harder it is to access them. This isn't that big of a deal for the Black Market, but for WWs, which is enclosed in a relatively small place, a large gathering of people would make it difficult to actually reach the contacts, adding to the "get out of my way, I just want to conduct business and you're blocking my path" annoyance factor. Pocket D, on the other hand, is very large, very open, and has the added effect of bars, chairs, etc. There's very little to do in Pocket D -except- socialize, and having more people there doesn't make it harder for you to reach contacts. In other words, if Pocket D were crowded with people, it wouldn't make it more difficult to -do- anything the way a crowded WWs would.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm curious: from your perspective, what specifically makes Pocket D more of an appropriate socialization spot than the markets, or for that matter any other random spot? Are those properties, whatever they are, transplantable to the market locations in theory, or is there something about Pocket D that makes it impossible for the markets to have the same properties?
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What kind of percentage of /ah users would you be looking to have stop using the power because the inf cost? Not 100%, presumably, or you might as well just ask the devs to remove the power and replace it with something else. But presumably not 5%, either, or you wouldn't get an appreciable increase in WW traffic. 20%? 50%? 80%?
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The auction houses were never social hotspots. They will never become social hotspots with your suggestion. Asking for players to have to pay for earned rewards is a complete non-starter.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it would incentivize use of Wents/BM and improve the social ambiance of those former hotspots.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I wonder how much more support the idea would receive if I re-framed as a pure inf sink, as the most vitriolic responses hail from the God Forbid I Ever See Another Player In The Wild, They Might Have Rabies! crowd.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I've gotten this quite often over the years and it remains irrelevant to my argument.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I'm defining 'hotspot' as 'a place in the game where you can find player characters'. What interactions you choose to have at that point are up to you- I usually browse costumes, read bios and compliment the ones I like, which occasionally leads to a chat of greater or lesser length.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Same thing I do in Pocket D (although Pocket D is just another instance in a game full of them) or Atlas with the difference that there are many market outlets in a variety of zones. I'll also note that Pocket D is reliably abandoned on many of the servers I play....unlike the markets.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Again, I like seeing other characters in game without having to go out of my way to find them.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
so you can continue to discount my point that the game needs more, not fewer, public gathering spots to alleviate its advanced case of City of Instances syndrome.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Markets, pre-AH command, were instant hotspots...rather like creating an artificial reef from old cars.
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Foolishness like this is why I ignore pretty much everything you say.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You can find them everywhere... They are called "NPCs".
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Combined with your insufferably holier than thou attitude it makes a grim milkshake indeed.
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Pocket D (for RPers mostly) and AP(everyone else) are pretty much the defacto social spots in game now. My understanding from other players was that WW was crowded and could be trolled easily. And I thing AP is a simple replacement of the former Galaxy City meeting place.
It doesn't bother me as much as the OP, perhaps because I played alot of what I call "lobby-based" games in the past (PSO comes to mind)
Not only should this suggestion be implemented as of right now, but anyone who has posted in this thread about how incredibly hard done by they would be if they actually had to be near another player while crafting their precious Perplexes should have to spend one hour per game session standing at the market welcoming every other player that shows up to do a bit of shopping.
/end runonsentance mode
No thanks
If you're looking for a social spot, pick one that already exhists... like AP on freedom, or PD on virtue.... go out of your way to get there every time you wanna use your /ah command, it'll make you feel right at home. problem solved.
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Oh, would adding a smily help? I'm sure Golden Girl could donate a few to the cause. Seriously though, what you are seeing is that the population is getting spread thinner as the amount of zones grow combined with people getting annoyed that some twit can't be bothered to turn off their toggles. After years of putting up with that, players demanded a way to AVOID the area you are so fond of. Now that a lot of players have that, you want to take that reward away because players aren't forced to be in your sight. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Foolishness like this is why I ignore pretty much everything you say.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Combined with your insufferably holier than thou attitude it makes a grim milkshake indeed.
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I think you'd better look at yourself about the holier than thou attitude, because you are saying that people are wrong to use a player requested reward that they have earned. Until you can come up with a compelling reason that the players should be charged to use an earned reward, expect a negative reaction. None of your reasons for this suggestion are compelling. Instead the reasons you have provided have been shown to be over-inflated and will only cause a negative player action if the developers actually introduce the suggestion.
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Adding a way to avoid going to the auction houses have been around since 2007 (I found a post from August 2007 asking for a base terminal for the auction houses), a few months after Issue 9 (May 2007) brought them to the game. Given the long-standing requests to not have to go to the auction houses, I don't think this suggestion has a chance of succeeding.
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Much as NPCs aren't equivalent to PCs when it comes to providing a creative social environment, suggesting something doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea- witness your antipathy for my notion. Dig through Sam Tow's post history, I'm sure you'll find comprehensive suggestions for avoiding contact with other players entirely. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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Adding a way to avoid going to the auction houses have been around since 2007 (I found a post from August 2007 asking for a base terminal for the auction houses), a few months after Issue 9 (May 2007) brought them to the game. Given the long-standing requests to not have to go to the auction houses, I don't think this suggestion has a chance of succeeding. |
Terrific for Sam, certainly, but of dubious value to the game as a whole.
the two main prongs of my idea are
1: Convenience fee for using remote terminal = inf sink.
2: No transaction fee at market = incentive for those who care about inf, potentially enlivening the public space of the game.
That nobody's complaining much about the proposed fee but are howling LOUDLY at the prospect of brushing shoulders with the unwashed masses is interesting.
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My City Was Gone
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Pocket D was designed to be a social spot, for one thing - so was the PDP before it, though that was more a "secret club." The Atlas plaza and hill on Talos were just sort of "created" - they're either open areas where you can see the new people come in (after all, they spawn right at the bottom of the stairs,) or they've become that way because of invasions and other events. (There's really noplace similar redside, which I add to the list of flaws there.) |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm curious: from your perspective, what specifically makes Pocket D more of an appropriate socialization spot than the markets, or for that matter any other random spot? Are those properties, whatever they are, transplantable to the market locations in theory, or is there something about Pocket D that makes it impossible for the markets to have the same properties?
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It's easy to socialize there.
The markets? There's several things *designed into* them that make them not "social hotspots." One is that you're going there to interact with a (very) few NPCs. Two, at least with Wentworths, it's a fairly confined area - and I can't say being enclosed helps. And three, while you're standing there - unless you're "just standing there," which I don't recall seeing anyone doing pretty much since they came out, regardless of server - you've got at *least* the market window open (which is not small.) Or the merit vendor window open, and you're browsing through that. You probably have your recipe and/or salvage window open as well. Why? You're there to do some specific business.
It's basically the difference between saying hi to someone at a bar (or park or whatnot) and getting between someone and the teller at the bank. One you'll get a response from. The other, you'll just irritate people with -and the second one's not the bar.
Part of the point of /ah (getting back to the suggestion) is, frankly, convenience - you don't *have* to get to a specific place, worry about waiting in line, etc. It's like banking from home... and most banks I've dealt with don't have a charge for that, either. No need to worry about tellers (or in our case having one of those instances people just finished something and are crowding the NPCs) or to go out of your way (I can use /ah while waiting for a team to finish arriving at a mission or while someone runs a talk-to - making /ah more social than the OP's suggestion, as I don't have to *leave* my team's area.)
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Just to illustrate - if the Atlas market were busy (given being right next to AE, etc... and I never saw "socializing" there) I'd typically go to King's Row. To the point where the KR market was pretty much my first stop. I knew I could get in, get what I needed done, and get out. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And a lot of people hated every second spent there. |
Which also, frankly, puts the lie to the markets ever being social hotspots, as people were given choices of *multiple* places to go both for convenience and to avoid crowding. You'll note that we don't have Pocket D, E, F and G to deliberately spread people out.
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An interesting experiment, then, would be to see what would happen if you were to create an extension of Pocket D which had market interfaces for both factions. If socializing and marketeering are as incompatible as suggested, they would tend to be unused in favor of either the current markets or the popup auctionhouse interface. On the other hand, if the primary concern is convenience over interference, they would tend to be used proportionately equal to or higher than the other interfaces relative to the amount of traffic that passes through Pocket D.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Pocket D was designed to be a social spot, for one thing - so was the PDP before it, though that was more a "secret club." The Atlas plaza and hill on Talos were just sort of "created" - they're either open areas where you can see the new people come in (after all, they spawn right at the bottom of the stairs,) or they've become that way because of invasions and other events. (There's really noplace similar redside, which I add to the list of flaws there.)
It's easy to socialize there. The markets? There's several things *designed into* them that make them not "social hotspots." One is that you're going there to interact with a (very) few NPCs. Two, at least with Wentworths, it's a fairly confined area - and I can't say being enclosed helps. And three, while you're standing there - unless you're "just standing there," which I don't recall seeing anyone doing pretty much since they came out, regardless of server - you've got at *least* the market window open (which is not small.) Or the merit vendor window open, and you're browsing through that. You probably have your recipe and/or salvage window open as well. Why? You're there to do some specific business. It's basically the difference between saying hi to someone at a bar (or park or whatnot) and getting between someone and the teller at the bank. One you'll get a response from. The other, you'll just irritate people with -and the second one's not the bar. |
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I'd love to see a Market kiosk in Pocket D, like one of those little Starbucks booths by the front door of a supermarket.
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Pocket D provides no services and so has no need of multiple locations for player convenience. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Which also, frankly, puts the lie to the markets ever being social hotspots, as people were given choices of *multiple* places to go both for convenience and to avoid crowding. You'll note that we don't have Pocket D, E, F and G to deliberately spread people out. |
Or do you actually think making players travel from Peregrine or wherever to Atlas just to sell their junk is good game design?
While they're at it they could just get rid of all the trainers except Lady Liberty, eh?
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Here is the thing: I'm not against interacting with others. On the other hand I am against forcing that interaction, as you clearly want to do.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Dig through Sam Tow's post history, I'm sure you'll find comprehensive suggestions for avoiding contact with other players entirely.
Terrific for Sam, certainly, but of dubious value to the game as a whole. |
We don't need to force players to congregate, especially not by taxing already earned upper-level rewards.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
the two main prongs of my idea are
1: Convenience fee for using remote terminal = inf sink. 2: No transaction fee at market = incentive for those who care about inf, potentially enlivening the public space of the game. |
As for #1, people hate banking fees in real life. Putting in something into the game that people hate, that the developers KNOW people will hate, and likely something that the developers would hate themselves will accomplish nothing good. To make it an effective Inf sink the developers would have to charge an amount far larger than you suggest. Fulmens does more to destroy Inf in a month (sometimes a week) than your suggestion would do in a year.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
That nobody's complaining much about the proposed fee but are howling LOUDLY at the prospect of brushing shoulders with the unwashed masses is interesting.
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At the end of the day, your suggestion is a solution looking for a problem. It doesn't accomplish either of your stated goals, as many posters in this thread have told you.
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I have a better idea: put a new teleporter in heroside Ouroboros that links a new zone called "Atlas Wentworths 2007". This is a tiny zone with just Wentworths in it, packed with about 500 NPCs in badly-designed costumes all begging for influence and asking to be PLed.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I really love /ah and wouldn't trade it for anything.
But I miss being able to pop in to Wentworths and find a bunch of folk hanging out doing their thing. IMHO the game needs *more* public gathering places where your character can feel like part of an actual CITY of Heroes. So, how to incentivize players actually using the actual market locations? Well, I'm glad you asked... A convenience fee on remote transactions! |
EDIT: ... and spamming heals.
Let me get this straight. You want to penalize people using a reward? What next? Have travel powers before level 14 cost extra endurance? Limit my supergroup or Pocket D transporter to a certain number of charges a day? Maybe limit the number of epic characters I have based on how long it's been since I last had a character hit 50?
Penalizing any players use of a reward devalues it. I oppose such vehemently, unless said reward has been proven to be game-breaking. Auction house now is limited since you can no longer sell during missions. I can see the reasons behind that.
As far as Wentworth is concerned, I enter the building now only to see Merit vendors. I enjoy NOT going there, especially if it means I don't have to listen to an influence peddler several times a minute trying to promote his site. Since it came into existence, I can think of a handful of times I had conversations there. It is not a "gathering" area in the sense you mean.
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False dichotomy. Not wanting a crowded WWs is NOT the same thing as hating people or not wanting to socialize in general. I love to socialize in-game, but I do it in places where people don't go to conduct business--I go to Pocket D, or to one of the many other social hotspots where I won't block access to terminals.| That nobody's complaining much about the proposed fee but are howling LOUDLY at the prospect of brushing shoulders with the unwashed masses is interesting. |
Quote from Monovalent:
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| Not only should this suggestion be implemented as of right now, but anyone who has posted in this thread about how incredibly hard done by they would be if they actually had to be near another player while crafting their precious Perplexes should have to spend one hour per game session standing at the market welcoming every other player that shows up to do a bit of shopping. |
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@Valerika
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Trainers|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Pocket D provides no services and so has no need of multiple locations for player convenience.
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Inspiration vendors
Some missions. (Seasonal, though some of my characters still have access to them.)
Inter-faction travel.
Arena
Sound like services to me. Have you been there lately?
It is also *designed* as a social hub... y'know, for that player interaction you're aiming for.
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| Or do you actually think making players travel from Peregrine or wherever to Atlas just to sell their junk is good game design? |
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| While they're at it they could just get rid of all the trainers except Lady Liberty, eh? |
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For both factions? I'm sorry, I'm not sure what "factions" you're talking about here, given the market is shared everywhere. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
An interesting experiment, then, would be to see what would happen if you were to create an extension of Pocket D which had market interfaces for both factions. If socializing and marketeering are as incompatible as suggested, they would tend to be unused in favor of either the current markets or the popup auctionhouse interface. On the other hand, if the primary concern is convenience over interference, they would tend to be used proportionately equal to or higher than the other interfaces relative to the amount of traffic that passes through Pocket D.
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I'm not quite sure what the experiment is meant to prove, either. I mean, if the market kiosk is there, it will be used by people that don't have the /ah command... unless they can't get to it (such as an itrial or two coming back in in the area) or don't know of it, in which case they'll go where there's another one, or put off using it. Those *with* the /ah command might go across the room, or they might just use /ah where they stand.
I don't think the experiment would prove much of anything except how soon people become aware of said kiosk in PD.
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You didn't mention:|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Trainers
Inspiration vendors Some missions. (Seasonal, though some of my characters still have access to them.) Inter-faction travel. Arena Sound like services to me. Have you been there lately? |
- A place to sell recipes/salvage (in the arena stores)
- Tailors (War Witch and Trina)
- Cosmetic surgeon (Trina again)
- Base Portal access
- Vault access
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Totally this!|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Sorry but this suggestion is a no-go for me - the /ah command is a perk.
Who cares if there are 15 people in WW?? It's not like I am going to talk to them. When I use WW I run in - do what I need to do and get out. Frankly being around that one random moron who refuses to be polite and stop: Crazy stupid toggles Spamming Heal Aura Has all their pets out is why I usually do my marketing late at night when less people are around. If you wanna social place - go to PD. |
I hate being "forced" to go anywhere that idiots are spamming their powers.
Obviously I don't mind while teaming.
But any place that is supposed to be a gathering place to me is miserable with people randomly spamming powers.
I LOVE /ah.
So I give this suggestion a simple NO vote.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
The market is NOT a 'social' hotspot. End of.
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