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'Historical' (albeit, esoteric) origin of fictional characters. I thought it was fairly obvious. :/|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
What does Superman have to do with Battle Maiden[s]?
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
They both have have a reference to their gender in their name?
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El, as a name suffix, denotes Elohim (ie, Rapha El, Mich[a] El, Azra El, etc); a sub-set of the angelic order. Angels being the 'super-powered' guardians of mankind.
(the reference also has the whole "sent his only begotten son" angle to it)
Has nothing to do with what CoX origin Batman is or how the fictional denizens of his backdrop view him (as I didn't allude or imply to either when I made my comparison).
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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One of the reasons its so useful is that being in space (i.e. off the Earth) is such a strong automatic short hand for being in the future, so its less common for futuristic settings to occur in other environments. The largest other major futuristic short hand setting is the world radically altered, and the most common of those is post-apocalyptic settings.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
a useful label for such stories is "space opera", where SF futurism provides the setting & props but the story proceeds willy-nilly without concerning itself overmuch with the mechanisms.
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Once you start getting to settings like technological cyberpunk and such, it becomes a lot more difficult for the setting to be completely incidental to the story.
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I gotta give you credit. I'm a guy who likes details, who likes to nit-pick. This is the most marvelous piece of nit-picking and self-justification I've ever seen.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
'Historical' (albeit, esoteric) origin of fictional characters. I thought it was fairly obvious. :/
It does have to do with what's in a name, coincidentally. Specifically the El suffix attached to Superman's (and his father's) real name. El, as a name suffix, denotes Elohim (ie, Rapha El, Mich[a] El, Azra El, etc); a sub-set of the angelic order. Angels being the 'super-powered' guardians of mankind. (the reference also has the whole "sent his only begotten son" angle to it) Has nothing to do with what CoX origin Batman is or how the fictional denizens of his backdrop view him (as I didn't allude or imply to either when I made my comparison). |
Bravo, sir. Bravo.
Anywho, so you're saying names matter. Okay. So Batman, clearly, must be a fantasy character, because bats appear in all sorts of fantasy stories.
I was going to try to come up with more ridiculous examples but this has gotten so bizarre and abstract that it's just easier to say you're wrong and move on.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I don't know. In retrospect, a lot of things make more sense now. Like why ELO was chosen to do the soundtrack for Xanadu.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I gotta give you credit. I'm a guy who likes details, who likes to nit-pick. This is the most marvelous piece of nit-picking and self-justification I've ever seen.
Bravo, sir. Bravo. Anywho, so you're saying names matter. Okay. So Batman, clearly, must be a fantasy character, because bats appear in all sorts of fantasy stories. I was going to try to come up with more ridiculous examples but this has gotten so bizarre and abstract that it's just easier to say you're wrong and move on. |
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In retrospect, why is this in suggestions? Shouldn't it be in City Life?
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Technically, its an idea.
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
In retrospect, why is this in suggestions? Shouldn't it be in City Life?
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Oh, awesome, more purposefully comprehension-twist snark. No better way to prove a point than intentionally and consistently being off the mark and passing it off as a parallel to the opposing view.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I gotta give you credit. I'm a guy who likes details, who likes to nit-pick. This is the most marvelous piece of nit-picking and self-justification I've ever seen.
Bravo, sir. Bravo. Anywho, so you're saying names matter. Okay. So Batman, clearly, must be a fantasy character, because bats appear in all sorts of fantasy stories. I was going to try to come up with more ridiculous examples but this has gotten so bizarre and abstract that it's just easier to say you're wrong and move on. |
But back to the reality of what the original point was. There's been a lot of throwback to Swords and Sorcery styled themes, characters, story-lines, events, costumes, critters, accessories, names, places and lore; concentrated from the latter part of 2010 until now. Some of it has merely been a nod, some; a direct port from S&S fantasy themes and lore. It's practically irrelevant, from the view of the OP, what re-inventions may have occurred to make those themes fit into the one presented by CoX. It's still a bunch of witches, warlocks, wizards, amazons, demons, gorgons, harpies, deistic, barbarians, netherworld, mystic realm ghost stuff that has been getting a lot of focus; to him (or her); especially being that they seemed to be fed up/burnt out on anything pertaining to that genre (or that other game).
To say there hasn't been is just being dishonest.
And to reiterate, so the clown crew doesn't get things lost in a chorus of bicycle horns and seltzer bottles:
Although there has been a fair concentration recently, I don't see the ratio being weighted towards the S&S themes. (Although it may appear that way depending on the level range and factions being played.)
I've already stated that the perception may have been compounded by older recurrent material (Seasonal events) being concentrated within a six month span and overlapping with the first SSA (which is heavily magic themed and spread out over a similar length of time) and the Dark Astoria release.
I'm not against the amount of S&S or pantheistic fantasy that's present here. It's bound to happen in our genre of catch-all, here at CoX. (Its almost like playing Rifts)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Who here is even making that argument?|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
To say there hasn't been is just being dishonest.
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Nobody.
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My City Was Gone
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If you followed my original entry into this discussion, I made the same point and provided a bullet-list of supporting data.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Who here is even making that argument?
Nobody. |
And yes, being that someone made an attempt to shred the entire list down to counter that point (as well as points brought up by other people earlier in the thread), that argument was indeed being made [more precisely, the polar opposite to that argument was being made].
I reiterated the point in my followup statement and alluded that, despite what his detractors were saying, the OP may have had a valid basis for his views.
And that's when a bunch of folks started creating WMDs to counter that same point. So, yes, they were providing support to that argument (or trolling; take your pick).
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Not sure why people are so annoyed by magical content, I think it would be great if we could have inspired-assets from other MMOs for our own use, means less chance of wanting to leave the game because we already have what they're got.
Plus I'll always know no matter how much fantasy armour and abilities I have, I'll be able to solo content on my own (even on my squishies) and if I fully incarnate out, be able to beat the AVs and GMs that usually require a group in THIS game to beat, by myself.
So it's like being in a Fantasy MMO but actually being powerful. Heh.
I hope the Black Knight Armour gets ported intact <8¬|
Home server: Victory
Characters on: Victory & Virtue
My first 50(0)! 18/11/11
@Oneirohero
This thread made me giggle....literally.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Banished Pantheon|
Originally Posted by DMystic
so 42 groups now
Magic: 11 |
Bat'Zul
The Cabal
Cap au Diable Demons
Carnival of Shadows
Circle of Thorns
Council (Vampyri, War Wolves)
Fir Bolg
Ghosts
Hellions
Legacy Chain
Midnight Squad
Praetorians (Poltergeist, Wight, Wraith)
Red Caps
Scrapyarders (Ghost of Scrapyard)
Skulls
Slag Golems
Snakes
Spectral Pirates
Tsoo
Tuatha de Dannan
W.I.S.D.O.M (Foreshadow, Mirror Spirit)
Wailers
Magic: 23
P.S. Were now getting a Sorcery Pool.
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We're also getting a tech, mutant, natural, and science pool. Sorcery is simply the one that's name leaked on beta. Some of your group listings are rather questionable (and duplicates).
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
P.S. Were now getting a Sorcery Pool.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Mirror, mirror....
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
So, yes, they were providing support to that argument (or trolling; take your pick).
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My City Was Gone
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You know what I think it is?|
Originally Posted by Oneirohero
Not sure why people are so annoyed by magical content...
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The people who get upset about magic in this game are like the leading men from I Dream Of Jeannie and Bewitched.
"No, no... don't use your magic!!!"
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM???
I've been putting my wife through magic training for years... and if anything ever comes from it, you better believe she is encouraged to use it as much as possible!!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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If your going to respond to the listing of groups, keep up with the existing list. |
Originally Posted by Hatred666
Banished Pantheon
Bat'Zul The Cabal Cap au Diable Demons Carnival of Shadows Circle of Thorns Council (Vampyri, War Wolves) Fir Bolg Ghosts Hellions Legacy Chain Midnight Squad Praetorians (Poltergeist, Wight, Wraith) Red Caps Scrapyarders (Ghost of Scrapyard) Skulls Slag Golems Snakes Spectral Pirates Tsoo Tuatha de Dannan W.I.S.D.O.M (Foreshadow, Mirror Spirit) Wailers Magic: 23 P.S. Were now getting a Sorcery Pool. |
In my very post that you quoted I put in 4 of the groups you listed here, I had said Croatoa x4, while I didn't list the individual groups(as I couldn't recall the names) I did account for them. Those being Tuatha,Cabal,Fir Bolg and Red Caps so lets take your 23 and remove those Duplicates....
As I was gong through this and removing duplicates somehow it went below the original 11 this was responding to. So for simplicity lets take this list and consider it the starting point after removing incorrect entries.
we have 22 entries here. now to remove the erroneous ones
Council Vampyri and Warwolves are created through scientific experimentation with genes and Nictus infusions and are defintiely not Magical. 21 groups
Ghost of Scrapyard is the only magical thing about the Scrapyarders and a single enemy does not define a group as a whole. 20 Groups.
Spectral Pirates don't have any different characteristics from the other ghosts in the game, other than the location they spawn and the hats they wear, I'm considering them a sub division of the ghosts group. 19 groups
Skulls and Hellions were categorized separate from Magic in the list originally posted by Memphis Bill, these can go either way.
W.I.S.D.O.M. has 2 other characters in it though they haven't appeared in game yet. While I can't discount the natures of Foreshadow and Mirror Spirit I don't think there is enough here to put WISDOM one side or the other. 18 Groups.
Snakes were discounted as a magical group in Memphis Bills post and I have to agree with his reasoning. 17 groups
Praetorians as a group have too many subfactions to count either way. If we wanted to we could break it down into the individual groups but I think that would actually lower the overall percentage of magical enemies when the non magic ones also get added in.(IDF, Warworks, Seers,PPD etc.)
So 16 groups with a few groups being mixed.
Not the alarming amount people make it out to be, considering the 50 or so groups covered in this thread.
16 out of 50+ is not a large amount, though this thread and the post I'm responding to show a bit of a perception flaw or general misinformation on the part of the OP.
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I definitely feel that the OP went hyperbolic with his claim of more magic-themed groups than not, but "16 out of 50+" is also not a small amount. Assuming the number of unique groups is essentially 50, then 16 of those groups would constitute 32% of the sum, or about 60% more than you would expect if the five origins should be getting equal billing. If you equally spread the other 68% of the enemy groups across the other four origins, they average 17% each, or about half of the individual influence that magic may have.|
Originally Posted by DMystic
So 16 groups with a few groups being mixed.
Not the alarming amount people make it out to be, considering the 50 or so groups covered in this thread. 16 out of 50+ is not a large amount, though this thread and the post I'm responding to show a bit of a perception flaw or general misinformation on the part of the OP. |
The tendency in comics and City specifically to include traditionally medieval melee weapons and such, in volume, also has a skewing effect. Between the melee classes, there are essentially 18 melee attack sets, with 7 sets that prominently feature a predominantly medieval (or earlier) weapon, including:
Battle Axe
Broad Sword
Dual Blades
Katana/Ninja Blade
Staff Fighting
Titan Weapons
War Mace
The melee classes directly represent about 40% of the characters playing in City, and a full third of those have strong ties to a medieval setting. Now, many of the weapons can have a modern, technological, or non-WoW feel or origin to them, but the slant is still there. Magic/medieval influences are also seen, to a far lesser extent, in the other ATs, with one ranged attack set (Archery), one support set (Trick Arrow), and three MM summoning sets (Demon, Necro, Ninja). Again, you can make them non-magic/medieval if you try (not really all that hard), but the basis for each exists.
I think the upcoming Retro Sci-Fi costumes will be a small step toward balancing things out, but there are still tons of opportunities to come up with NPC groups and character options that are less clearly like our fantasy medieval competition and more balanced among the five origins.
@NC Thunderbird, @Last Kid Picked
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Campaigning for title of official "Thread Killer" of the Suggestions & Ideas forum.
I decided to grab the list of groups from Wikipedia and categorize them. Groups that were too small (Demon Hunters... is just a single named NPC) weren't counted, nor were meta-groups ("Praetorians"), and similar. This is counting Night Ward's content, which adds a few groups, bringing it closer to Tech (but not enough). Many groups fall into multiple categories.
Tech: 31
Magic: 29
Natural: 25
Science: 14
Mutant: 13
Tech:
2nd Imperial Defense Force Regiment
5th Column
Anti-Matter's Clockwork
Arachnos
Axis America
Council
Council Empire
Crey
D.U.S.T.
Destroyers
Dregs
Freakshow
Gold Brickers
Devouring Earth / Hamidon
Hydra
Imperial Defense Force
Knives of Artemis
Longbow
Malta Operatives
Nemesis + Automations
Neuron's Clockwork
PPD
Praetorian Clockwork
Praetorian Police Department
The Resistance
Rikti
Sky Raiders
Knives of Vengeance
Vahzilok
Vanguard
Wyvern
Science:
5th Column
Arachnoids
Arachnos
Contaminated
Council
Crey
Failed Experiments
Forlorn
Ghouls
Infected
Krylov's Creations
The Lost
Trolls
Vahzilok
Natural:
5th Column
Angry Citizens
Arachnos
Cage Consortium Guards
Cimeroran Traitors
Cimerorans
Council
Crazed
Dockworkers
Escaped Prisoner
The Family
Luddites
Minions of Igneous (no lore says they're actually magic, AFAIK)
Mooks
Shivans / Neo-Shivans (they're aliens)
Nictus
PPD
Prisoners
Rikti
RIP
Scrapyarders
Security Guards
Snakes
Warriors
Magic:
Apparitions / The Possessed
Arachnos
Banished Pantheon
The Cabal
Cap au Diable Demons / Bat'Zul
Carnival of Light / Vengeance / War
Carnival of Shadows
Circle of Thorns
Coralax
Drudges (or natural)
Fir Bolg
Ghosts (benefit of the doubt)
Devouring Earth / Hamidon
Hellions (only bosses)
Legacy Chain
Midnight Masters
Midnight Squad
Red Caps
Rulu-Shin (questionable)
Shepherds
Skulls
Slag Golems
Talons of Vengeance
Knives of Vengeance
Tsoo
Tuatha de Dannan
Vanguard
Wailers
Warriors
Mutant:
Arachnos
The Awakened
Clockwork (CWK is likely mutant)
Devouring Earth / Hamidon
The Family
The Infested
Longbow
Mooks
Outcasts
PPD
Seers
Snakes
Syndicate
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Everyone's entitled to their opinions.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
If your going to respond to the listing of groups, keep up with the existing list.
In my very post that you quoted I put in 4 of the groups you listed here, I had said Croatoa x4, while I didn't list the individual groups(as I couldn't recall the names) I did account for them. Those being Tuatha,Cabal,Fir Bolg and Red Caps so lets take your 23 and remove those Duplicates.... As I was gong through this and removing duplicates somehow it went below the original 11 this was responding to. So for simplicity lets take this list and consider it the starting point after removing incorrect entries. we have 22 entries here. now to remove the erroneous ones Council Vampyri and Warwolves are created through scientific experimentation with genes and Nictus infusions and are defintiely not Magical. 21 groups Ghost of Scrapyard is the only magical thing about the Scrapyarders and a single enemy does not define a group as a whole. 20 Groups. Spectral Pirates don't have any different characteristics from the other ghosts in the game, other than the location they spawn and the hats they wear, I'm considering them a sub division of the ghosts group. 19 groups Skulls and Hellions were categorized separate from Magic in the list originally posted by Memphis Bill, these can go either way. W.I.S.D.O.M. has 2 other characters in it though they haven't appeared in game yet. While I can't discount the natures of Foreshadow and Mirror Spirit I don't think there is enough here to put WISDOM one side or the other. 18 Groups. Snakes were discounted as a magical group in Memphis Bills post and I have to agree with his reasoning. 17 groups Praetorians as a group have too many subfactions to count either way. If we wanted to we could break it down into the individual groups but I think that would actually lower the overall percentage of magical enemies when the non magic ones also get added in.(IDF, Warworks, Seers,PPD etc.) So 16 groups with a few groups being mixed. Not the alarming amount people make it out to be, considering the 50 or so groups covered in this thread. 16 out of 50+ is not a large amount, though this thread and the post I'm responding to show a bit of a perception flaw or general misinformation on the part of the OP. |
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Yes, well, opinions based on fact carry more weight with the general public.
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
Everyone's entitled to their opinions.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
That's a wonderful post Kitsune.
I hadn't even considered going to Paragonwiki for that kind of info.
Tech: 31
Magic: 29
Natural: 25
Science: 14
Mutant: 13
Now then since this thread was specifically about Magic vs non magic
I'm going to combine the other groups for an overall comparison
MAGIC: 29
NON MAGIC: 83
So with these numbers close to a third of the groups in the game are magic based. That's actually more than I thought there were, however I don't think it's too many. Especially comparing to the Comicbook Genre this game is based off of.
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If only.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Yes, well, opinions based on fact carry more weight with the general public.
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Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
My favorite example is the Mageworlds series by Debra Doyle & James MacDonald.
Definitely SF, but definitely more concerned with swashbuckling adventure than the minutia of how star drives work. The whole thing could just as easily have been a historical novel set on the Spanish Main, or a fantasy set on some Pern-like world, or any number of other places.
But the authors wanted spaceships, so it's SF.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone