Magic is kind of a misnomer - I would bundle it in with all things fantasy themed and supernatural based.
Issue 18 (Apr 2010 - Demon Summoning, Ghouls)
Issue 19 (October 2010 - Battle Maidens)
Issue 20 (Apr 2011 - Mortimer Kal)
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Issue 22 (Mar 2012) - DA, Dark Powersets
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Pretty good concentration of 'supernatural' themes over the past couple of years; with the highest being during the 'holy-day' season ((which is to be expected) overlapping with the first SSA).
Not that it outweighs the mundane content but it is a noticeable theme for those trying to avoid it.
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Ghouls - Science based. Created by Neuron, as I recall. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Magic is kind of a misnomer - I would bundle it in with all things fantasy themed and supernatural based.
Issue 18 (Apr 2010 - Demon Summoning, Ghouls) |
Demon summoning - no origin described. I can just as easily have natural (or tech, or science, or mutant) demons.
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| Issue 19 (October 2010 - Battle Maidens) |
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| Issue 20 (Apr 2011 - Mortimer Kal) |
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| Halloween Event (Oct-Nov 2011) |
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| Barbarian Bundle (?) |
Same with the COT pieces, though I'll grant at least a connection to a magic group there.
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| Issue 22 (Mar 2012) - DA, Dark Powersets |
I forgot about the ignious guys in hollows!
I think they would be either natural/mutant maybe 
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It's irrelevant that this specific game setting allows for costumes and powers to be labeled as anything outside of the fantasy realm; it still doesn't change what those type of things invoke to someone that isn't acclimated to CoX (...at all, as much as long standing players here or as much as they are to a different game (or other) experience).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Ghouls - Science based. Created by Neuron, as I recall.
Demon summoning - no origin described. I can just as easily have natural (or tech, or science, or mutant) demons. Eh? ... with what else? Admiral Sutter (decidedly non magical,) BAF and Lamda, and the unlocking of the four post-Alpha Incarnate slots we have now. And while Kai is a "wizard," Prometheus is more tied to Incarnates (and Ascended, now) than to "magic" in game. You're seriously throwing in a recurring event based on real-life holiday? The barbarian bundle isn't magic. Or supernatural. And the pieces do lend themselves to non-fantasy themes. Same with the COT pieces, though I'll grant at least a connection to a magic group there. Again, powersets, unless on an Epic AT, are not any one fixed origin. |
As much as you want to invalidate the OP's perception; the only thing you're succeeding in is showing that it absolutely has to be as you ascribe it.
Anywhoo, I'm not taking sides in this... just showing that there is a concentration of what can be perceived as fantasy-themes recently.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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... Right. Because, after all, they need to bring THEIR lore into a totally different game instead of working within the lore and world of COH. I do find your attempt at redefinition into the extremely broad "fantasy" term (where the OP said specifically magic and mysticism) mildly amusing, by the way. Unfortunately, it still didn't help you make your point. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
It's irrelevant that this specific game setting allows for costumes and powers to be labeled as anything outside of the fantasy realm; it still doesn't change what those type of things invoke to someone that isn't acclimated to CoX (...at all, as much as long standing players here or as much as they are to a different game (or other) experience).
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| As much as you want to invalidate the OP's perception; |
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| the only thing you're succeeding in is showing that it absolutely has to be as you ascribe it. |
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If you work hard enough, you can perceive Nemesis as fantasy-themed (steampunk technology), and all of Praetoria as fantasy-themed (dystopian alternate reality). I'm sure its possible with the 5th Column, the Trolls, and the Malta eventually.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
just showing that there is a concentration of what can be perceived as fantasy-themes recently.
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Seriously: Battle Maidens?
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BATTLE MAIDENS!?? <jumps up on chair screaming> WHERE!?? WHERE!??
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Seriously: Battle Maidens?
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Heh...I bet that stab at the Maidens was made due to their attire which is somehow magical...so I guess if I put on a bear skin rug and Deer Mount over my head I will be able to shape reality to my will.
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Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Angelxman81
Cant get enough magic,I love it!
I wish we got some kind of ancient China or feudal Japan zone...soon? |
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Seriously?
I'm neutral in the battle over origins - I love them all and believe they all have a place in a universe of super heroes and villains.
That being said, Magic content has been long overdue for an addition recently. It makes perfect sense in the lore as well.
Fits of subjectively blind snark aside, yes, Battle Maidens - Female fighter caste with medieval armor and weaponry = Amazons or Valkyries; both steeped in classic pantheistic fantasy (same type of stuff you'd find in a pure fantasy MMORPG).
Same with almost everything on my original list; I don't need to stretch anything. All things listed (in terminology, appearance, storyline or otherwise) can be found (has a solid basis) primarily (and most prevalently) in what is usually recognized as fantasy fiction.
Stating otherwise would be like discounting Superman's origin being dipped in angelic mythos; just because the character is presented to the audience as an alien being.
[As I said before, I could care less either way about the use of Magic [fantasy themes] in CoX; it's largely inevitable... just pointing out the instances where they've occurred recently]
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In many incarnations of the Batman character, many Gotham citizens believe him to be either a) supernatural, or 2) an actual man-sized bat. So what origin is Batman: Natural, Magic, Mutation? Or perhaps a 4th option: you are being silly.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Stating otherwise would be like discounting Superman's origin being dipped in angelic mythos; just because the character is presented to the audience as an alien being.
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What does any of that have to do with my point about Superman?
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
In many incarnations of the Batman character, many Gotham citizens believe him to be either a) supernatural, or 2) an actual man-sized bat. So what origin is Batman: Natural, Magic, Mutation? Or perhaps a 4th option: you are being silly.
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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The OP explicitly was talking about "magic/mysticism" (an exact quote), not fantasy in general. I'd argue that scifi is just a subset of fantasy (hell, with how most authors use "scifi", it's basically magic with electrons).
I could (and would) label all of CoH to be fantasy (along with the entire "comic book" medium). From the Circle to Malta. But, I can't then say that has any bearing on the amount of magic in CoH. Because, even if magic is a subset of fantasy, that doesn't mean magic == fantasy (nor magic == tech).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Like, say, Captain Britain, or all of Excalibur (the team, not the sword). Or most of Alpha Flight. How about Dr. Doom, Thor and the Asgardians, Big Barda and many of the New Gods.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Fits of subjectively blind snark aside, yes, Battle Maidens - Female fighter caste with medieval armor and weaponry = Amazons or Valkyries; both steeped in classic pantheistic fantasy (same type of stuff you'd find in a pure fantasy MMORPG).
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And where does Wolverine fit? He might be a mutant but his backstory is full of Native Americans and Ninjas. He's only not considered a fantasy character because he's become one of the most popular characters in the conventional superhero genre while never actually being *in* the conventional superhero genre except in occasionally wearing a crazy primary color costume.
Mainstream superhero-ish comics already include an enormously expansive set of very non-marginal characters. John Constantine and Swamp Thing. The Silver Surfer and Galactus. Dr. Strange and Mephisto. Of the "big three" DC characters one is a superpowerful alien, one is a billionaire western ninja, and one is a magical amazon.
Once you start saying armored women are or can be fairly characterized as fantasy characters, any line you decide to draw becomes not just arbitrary but completely random. Daredevil may have a science origin, but his signature foes from the Miller era, the Hand, were magical in nature as was his trainer Stick. Once you eliminate all the magic, all the fantasy, and all the non-technological non-scientific supernatural elements, you're left with a lot less than 50% of the genre. You're now left with a very small minority purporting to represent the mainstream of the genre.
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As stated in Clarke's Three Laws,|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
The OP explicitly was talking about "magic/mysticism" (an exact quote), not fantasy in general. I'd argue that scifi is just a subset of fantasy (hell, with how most authors use "scifi", it's basically magic with electrons).
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| Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. |
And in any case, as noted by others, the "comic book" genre is rotten with pure, straight no chaser magic. CoH's universe doesn't seem any more polluted with the stuff than either Marvel or DC.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
The OP explicitly was talking about "magic/mysticism" (an exact quote), not fantasy in general. I'd argue that scifi is just a subset of fantasy (hell, with how most authors use "scifi", it's basically magic with electrons).
I could (and would) label all of CoH to be fantasy (along with the entire "comic book" medium). From the Circle to Malta. But, I can't then say that has any bearing on the amount of magic in CoH. Because, even if magic is a subset of fantasy, that doesn't mean magic == fantasy (nor magic == tech). |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Like, say, Captain Britain, or all of Excalibur (the team, not the sword). Or most of Alpha Flight. How about Dr. Doom, Thor and the Asgardians, Big Barda and many of the New Gods.
And where does Wolverine fit? He might be a mutant but his backstory is full of Native Americans and Ninjas. He's only not considered a fantasy character because he's become one of the most popular characters in the conventional superhero genre while never actually being *in* the conventional superhero genre except in occasionally wearing a crazy primary color costume. Mainstream superhero-ish comics already include an enormously expansive set of very non-marginal characters. John Constantine and Swamp Thing. The Silver Surfer and Galactus. Dr. Strange and Mephisto. Of the "big three" DC characters one is a superpowerful alien, one is a billionaire western ninja, and one is a magical amazon. Once you start saying armored women are or can be fairly characterized as fantasy characters, any line you decide to draw becomes not just arbitrary but completely random. Daredevil may have a science origin, but his signature foes from the Miller era, the Hand, were magical in nature as was his trainer Stick. Once you eliminate all the magic, all the fantasy, and all the non-technological non-scientific supernatural elements, you're left with a lot less than 50% of the genre. You're now left with a very small minority purporting to represent the mainstream of the genre. |
The existence of the latter doesn't invalidate the former.
(and I am broadening up a bit on the OPs 'magic' quote because of his other quote; a direct reference to the game that shall not be mentioned (which, although having magical elements to it, is not altogether a 'magic' game)) [which is the frame of reference that I am positioning from].
As far as me drawing the line with the female warrior comparison; that distinction was created long before I came along. Most people wouldn't walk into Whatever-con, see a group of women in medieval war gear, and assume sci-fi, steam-punk or even horror; they'd assume fantasy. And would make that assumption without all the caveats being brought up here.
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One of the problems with the Science Fiction and Fantasy genres is that a lot of people just make up their own definitions for those two terms, which is fine except when the intent is to use them for communication. Then, its useful if they have a generally agreed upon set of definitions.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
The OP explicitly was talking about "magic/mysticism" (an exact quote), not fantasy in general. I'd argue that scifi is just a subset of fantasy (hell, with how most authors use "scifi", it's basically magic with electrons).
I could (and would) label all of CoH to be fantasy (along with the entire "comic book" medium). From the Circle to Malta. But, I can't then say that has any bearing on the amount of magic in CoH. Because, even if magic is a subset of fantasy, that doesn't mean magic == fantasy (nor magic == tech). |
The term speculative fiction is often promoted as a term which encompasses fiction beyond conventional bounds: science fiction, fantasy, horror, and counter-factual fiction (fiction set in alternate timelines and histories). But that doesn't mean there exists no distinction between fantasy and science fiction. We know where the extremes are: Lord of the Rings sits deep in Fantasy land, and 2001 sits pretty far out in Science Fiction land. Although there's a lot of debate over the margins, I believe the best way to describe the overall difference is that Science Fiction deals with the consequences of the scientific details of the story as a major element of the plot or context in which the plot exists. Basically, Science Fiction is fiction that incorporates science critically and not tangentially.
To say that science fiction is a subset of fantasy is to say that all science fiction stories must be fantasy stories. But that's not true by even very expansive definitions of "fantasy" unless you believe all fiction is fantasy. I doubt anyone would call Robocop a fantasy genre story, or the novel Contact. The Stephen Baxter novel Evolution is definitely Science Fiction, but I don't see how you could classify it as a Fantasy novel. In fact, I don't see how you could classify it as anything other than pure science fiction without qualifiers.
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I see there being two sides to "science fiction"... there's the type like you described (that's the definition I actually like), and then there's the "scifi setting" type... which is basically take any story and throw it into space/replace the gun with a ray gun/paint the women green/etc, and suddenly it's "science fiction", even though the plot/story didn't care in the slightest.| Although there's a lot of debate over the margins, I believe the best way to describe the overall difference is that Science Fiction deals with the consequences of the scientific details of the story as a major element of the plot or context in which the plot exists. Basically, Science Fiction is fiction that incorporates science critically and not tangentially. |
Admittedly, I only ever actually take the position that science fiction is a subset of fantasy to piss off one person that's obsessed with scifi, but loathes fantasy... I also refer to vulcans as "elves", because it amuses me greatly.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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What does Superman have to do with Battle Maiden? |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
What does any of that have to do with my point about Superman?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
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They both have have a reference to their gender in their name? |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
What does Superman have to do with Battle Maiden?
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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You're right, Batman is definitely the odd one out.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
They both have have a reference to their gender in their name?
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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You said nothing of the bat in your question! |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
You're right, Batman is definitely the odd one out.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Rarely does that happen in a way where the futuristic or scientific setting is literally irrelevant and deemphasized, but when it does happen its usually not considered science fiction except by people who throw the label around willy-nilly. An example would be Angels and Demons - there's some futuristic speculative science in terms of the antimatter generation process, but its handled so badly and in such a disconnected way that I don't think very many people would consider Angels and Demons to be science fiction.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
I see there being two sides to "science fiction"... there's the type like you described (that's the definition I actually like), and then there's the "scifi setting" type... which is basically take any story and throw it into space/replace the gun with a ray gun/paint the women green/etc, and suddenly it's "science fiction", even though the plot/story didn't care in the slightest.
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But its often the case that the whole point to science fiction is to ask "what if?" Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind introduces just one small science fiction element: erasure. From there, the entire rest of the story isn't about science or technology, but rather the "what if" surrounding how that one little thing affects the characters in the story. For that reason, I think Eternal Sunshine is definitely a science fiction story.
Its interesting to compare those two stories, which on paper seem to have the same amount of science fiction elements, but which then depart from them in very different ways. Eternal Sunshine makes you think "what if" whereas Angels and Demons doesn't, at least it doesn't strongly encourage it.
But I think a really great example of a story that is dropped into a science fiction setting is Battle Beyond the Stars. Its Seven Samurai in space. Is it best described as science fiction or fantasy, even considering its setting? I think it exists within the DMZ between both, and strong cases can be made both ways.
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Fair enough.
So what is that then 11-13 magic groups out of the 40+ covered so far?