Robot Character-- Science or Tech Origin?


Aneko

 

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Originally Posted by Aneko View Post
It seems like the problem is a narrow definition.
/seconded.

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Originally Posted by Tyger42 View Post
I didn't really see any suitable answers. A quantum computer in a robot chassis? A computer is still tech. Magic robots? Those are called "golems"...
A golem has a specific definition. Specifically, it tends to be unthinking - or let's just go with "not sentient."

Magic robot? Let me take a moment and create a bio...

It didn't remember coming into being, anything before the rite. Its first memory was seeing the bodies of what it would later know to be mages laying around a broken room, scorch marks still on the floor. It didn't pay them any mind - why should it? They were just part of its environment.

Like most young beings, it was curious. After flitting around the room, it found a window - once warded, the wards (and glass) had been destroyed in the blast. It flew out freely into the night air, and soared. It first tried to reach the other points of light it saw, far above, sure they were like it - but it failed. Somehow, it was tied to the land beneath it. It took stock of itself, not feeling anything tying it down, and wondered.

If it was to be bound to this world, then that's where it felt best for it to explore. It floated along near the ground, unobserved by most it saw. It was unhappy, then. Apparently it was to be alone - nothing paid it any mind (except a cat it came across, which hissed and ran off.) Eventually it found an area full of life - life that wouldn't run away. Making its home in a tree, it started to study "life." It learned it could direct the tree's growth, even make its branches move - though the misdirected growth seemed to hurt it. It then tried the ground, but found its attempts frustrated -then, after having its spire turned to mud and washed away after a rainstorm, decided "ground" was thoroughly unsatisfactory.

Then it discovered metal. First it tried some of the available forms. Doorknobs could move with the odd, flat tree they were in, but only a little way. The humans it saw (for it had learned what they were called) seemed to find this action fairly annoying, too. It then tried an odd, thin contraption with movable parts - but decided, after the third fall, it didn't want to be a bicycle. It then tried one of the four-wheeled constructions it had found. Fast, mobile, and it could communicate - sort of - with the lights and the horn. Its biggest drawback was that it couldn't see, and was fairly limited in where it could roam.

It went with the (shortly wrecked) car to a "junkyard," someplace absolutely rich in metals. And there it worked. It learned. It learned to mold metal as it willed. It discovered a way to create motion, to see. Possibly to communicate.

It ventured out, leaving a hole in the fence. Entering the city, it found its welcoming flashes sometimes ignored, sometimes responded to with a wave and some words it was beginning to understand. This was good! It continued joyously for another mile, flashing and waving at people.

Then it came upon the gang members.

It wasn't sure of what it was seeing. Three of these humans, dressed the same, surrounded a fourth who seemed to be in some sort of distress. Surely they were helping the other, who apparently had something stuck to her hands. It flashed a greeting, obviously startling the first three. They let go of the object stuck to the other's hand, letting her fall, then came over to it. They poked at it and prodded it, then started hitting it. It flashed at them to stop, which apparently they thought was funny - it had heard laughter before. They knocked it down, kicked it a time or two, then went back to the fourth.

It was unhappy. It didn't understand. It did understand, however, that the fourth's distress increased when the first three caught up to her again. It also learned that it had its pride - and a sense of right and wrong. It went past unhappy to angry. Concentrating, it reconfigured the signaling light in its hand, redirecting the metal and glass. It fed its energy, anger and will along those lines, focusing it.

The gang members, ignoring the "rustbucket," were caught unaware. The three gang members (and the girl they were trying to mug) were knocked down again. She scrambled to her feet and ran toward her saviour, who watched, applying more blasts until they were immobile. It considered going on - it could still detect their life - but it paused, and the woman put her hand on its arm.

"Don't kill them. You saved me, thank you. Don't ruin it by killing them. I've called the police. Thank you," she said. It wondered if it was being attacked again when she put her arms around it, then decided it wasn't. It watched as she sprinted off, finding someone still in one of the otherwise closed stores to let her in until the police arrived.

It decided it had a lot to learn.




.... so there you have a magic creature creating a body for itself out of metal - a magic "robot," self-aware and animated, upgraded (and armed) wholly through its own will.


 

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I think a lot of it comes down to, as Silver Gale said, which enhancements sound right for the character. My namesake character received her powers from a psionic mutant heroine and, since she hasn't learned to control them and she's a huge fan of the magical-girl genre (which itself can twist magic and science into pretzel knots), her unconscious expectations make them look like magic powers.

Her origin could be mutant (they're mutant powers, even if she's not a mutant herself), science (she was an ordinary girl until they were given to her) or magic (that's what it actually looks like she's doing most of the time). Science would be the simplest, most literal answer, but power boosts by xenon exposure in a lab just make no narrative sense for her. Mutation and Magic share DO's and the concept behind mutation SO's sort of works, but CoH has a pretty strict lore concept when it comes to being a mutant (part of which is that you were born with your abilities) and she doesn't really fit that bill.

In the end I went with magic because she looks magic, acts magic, and talking to genies, hanging out at Pandora's Box and dramatically flashing talismans and shouting mythological names felt much more in line with her character than anything else. The origin affects the flavor of the character's progress through the game, which stores and enhancements they use, how NPC's describe them and so on, so it's really just a question of which one feels right for that character's adventures.

As for a robot with a Science origin: "You received your powers either through purposeful scientific inquiry or some accident gone awry. You have since learned to harness your new-found abilities, becoming a powerful force in the world." A robot that gained sentience through some unique circumstances and is now trying to use its new-found freedom to change the world could definitely fit that description.


"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."

 

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I look at is as Tech is engineered, Science is the result of an experiment (successful or disastrous). Mutant is something they are born with but it's not a ability for their species. Natural is for someone trained or has an ability that is common for their species. Magic covers everything use.

I have a character that is a half-demon. Father is human, mother is a Kitsune, a Japanese fox spirit. So are her abilities mutant, natural or magic? She has the abilities of Illusion, like all Kitsune (natural). Her ability is not something that humans have (mutant). Kitsune are beings of legend, messengers of a goddess with abilities that seem magical to ordinary humans (magic).

Since this character didn't know about her mother's true form until she turned of age, she thinks of herself as a human first so mutant. But it could be any of those three.


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I always make my robots, cyborgs, and guys in power suits Tech. Science is for guys like the Hulk or Spider-Man.


 

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Well you could always just say the robot performs science. So maybe it started with electrical processes, but the robot is smart enough to build its own chemical/biological enhancements. Or the "robot" could be a human infected with nanobots, or the reverse: an electrical robot "infected" by a mortal mind. As soon as you come up with a hard category, its difficult not to find an example that can break it, hence the need for a lot of subjectivity.


 

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One of the very first robots I made in game, Kintetic Flux, was already level 18 before someone pointed out his origin was Natural.
I'd just been messing around in the creator and forgot to change it! /Doh.

I quickly came up with a background, since I was loving the character and name.
I decided he was a sentient robot from a dimension were machines were the dominant lifeforms. Natural origin robot!


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Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
I look at is as Tech is engineered, Science is the result of an experiment (successful or disastrous).
That's the best explanation I've heard so far. Thank you

Somewhat sideways of the subject, though, it's discussions like these that provide ample evidence as to why Origins should never have a stronger gameplay effect, and should never "mean" more than they already do. Their definition is so broad and open to interpretation that to try and give them a specific "official" meaning and thus an effect associated with it will just make a lot of people's characters "wrong" all of a sudden.

Like I said - if you want to go with the specifics of the in-game definition, a robot is Tech. But you don't have to go with it. If you can make an argument for Science or Natural or even Magic and it works for you, then you can and indeed should go with it. You just need to be prepared that some people will ask you for an explanation.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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I rerolled Gardossus as Tech-- yes his sentience is a unique accident, but the flavor of the enhancements, etc. would have always bothered me.

Plus, in a month or two, when (if) he gets the rumored Archetype Power Pool, I bet the Tech one will make more sense for him.


 

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Somewhat sideways of the subject, though, it's discussions like these that provide ample evidence as to why Origins should never have a stronger gameplay effect, and should never "mean" more than they already do. Their definition is so broad and open to interpretation that to try and give them a specific "official" meaning and thus an effect associated with it will just make a lot of people's characters "wrong" all of a sudden.
Totally agreed! I love how, apart from a few little dialogue hiccups here and there, the game makes almost no assumptions about your character at all, so even the most convoluted concepts still fit into the story just fine.


"Now, I'm not saying this guy at Microsoft sees gamers as a bunch of rats in a Skinner box. I'm just saying that he illustrates his theory of game design using pictures of rats in a Skinner box."

 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
I always make my robots, cyborgs, and guys in power suits Tech. Science is for guys like the Hulk or Spider-Man.
Both Spiderman and Hulk could also be explained as Mutation origin. Their genetics/dna/whatever were altered from the "human norm" during their origin story. Remember Rifts "Techno-Wizards"? They use powersuits, etc. powered my Magic. I could go on and on, but at the end of the day, there are no hard rules for origin selection. YMMV.

From a charagter standpoint: It's your character, your Origin is what you decide it is. As long as it makes sense to you, the rest of the megaverse can go hang if they don't like your choice.

From a pure game mechanics standpoint: Different origin means a different apprentice power and different names for the enhancements you can slot (they are functionally identical).


 

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Originally Posted by Gothikaijuzero View Post
I made a new robot character this weekend and gave him the science origin, as he is a creation of science rather than one who uses technology.

Now I'm wondering if I was thinking about it wrong... How do others see the origin of a robot character?
They are really creations of magic.


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Originally Posted by Tyger42 View Post
I didn't really see any suitable answers. A quantum computer in a robot chassis? A computer is still tech. Magic robots? Those are called "golems"...
Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic and any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from science.


But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius

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Originally Posted by Elf_Sniper View Post
Both Spiderman and Hulk could also be explained as Mutation origin. Their genetics/dna/whatever were altered from the "human norm" during their origin story. ).
no, no they can't. Mutant means you were born with the ability, because of a mutation.

The origin specifically says such.


 

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Originally Posted by Gothikaijuzero View Post
I made a new robot character this weekend and gave him the science origin, as he is a creation of science rather than one who uses technology.

Now I'm wondering if I was thinking about it wrong... How do others see the origin of a robot character?
my thinking runs along these lines-

did the hero invent his powers?

then I go with science.

are the hero's powers a result of science he had no hand in creating?

then I go with tech.


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Originally Posted by Elf_Sniper View Post
Mutation
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Originally Posted by Devlin_Quaid View Post
Mutant
What he said was accurate, but it's not what you read.


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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis View Post
Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic and any sufficiently advanced[sic] magic is indistinguishable from science.
I think you meant sufficiently studied magic. Though this isn't true if magic is fundamentally arbitrary.



Anyway, I always saw robots as being tech origin. Robots are made up of gears, pistons, motors, wheel and axles, levers, pressure differentials via liquid or steam, and other stuff. If you were to take a wheel and axle, it itself wouldn't be considered superpowered or a product of superscience. If you take enough wheels and axles and pulleys and levers and put them together in the right way, you get a robot. In the sense that you are constructing things from tools that are readily available, it is a matter of technology.

The case for science origin can be made very easily. There are several "parts" of the robot that we tend to take for granted, such as the material they are made out of, their power source, or their AI source. If a new and unusual way of handling those aspects is an important part of a robot's story, then you can say that it is science origin.



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I usually see robots as Tech, though in some cases I could possibly see a Science origin making just as much sense depending on what the robot can do. A robot who has fairly straightforward powers such as inbuilt guns or flamethrowers, or who has the strength and speed to match human heroes simply because he is a robot of sound construction, would unquestionably be tech. However, when you get to wilder abilities more commonly associated with science than with what's thought of as tech - say your robot is in essence a walking particle accelerator, for instance, and all its abilities are completely dependent on that; truly a scientific device with extraordinary qualities even for a robot - then I could see a Science origin.

It's a similar way of thinking to how I would differentiate between a Natural- and Tech-origin character in ambiguous cases: It's all in where the ability really comes from. I have a scrapper who uses a matched energy shield and energy blade, and wears sleek, hi-tech armor, but I call her Natural origin because it's her skill with them that matters - someone else might have the same basic idea of energy weapons and space armor but with the difference that their ability comes directly from having those things, and that character would be tech-origin. To me, a Tech-origin robot is the same as a Natural-origin human, and weird abilities that go above and beyond the robot's "natural" (tech) abilities could easily fall under the category of Science.


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Originally Posted by Elf_Sniper View Post
Both Spiderman and Hulk could also be explained as Mutation origin. Their genetics/dna/whatever were altered from the "human norm" during their origin story.
No, the X-Men are Mutation. They're born with their altered genetics, whereas the Hulk and Spider-Man were genetically altered only through some strange application of SCIENCE!


 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
No, the X-Men are Mutation. They're born with their altered genetics, whereas the Hulk and Spider-Man were genetically altered only through some strange application of SCIENCE!
What he said.


 

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Originally Posted by Scythus View Post
No, the X-Men are Mutation. They're born with their altered genetics, whereas the Hulk and Spider-Man were genetically altered only through some strange application of SCIENCE!
Exactly. What the word "mutation" might mean in colloquial English is irrelevant, because the way City of Heroes defines the Mutation origin is as powers which are innate and yet significantly different from what is native to the character's species. This wasn't a character who got powers. This is a character who was born/made with those powers to begin with.

As with all other origins, players are, of course, free to re-interpret what Mutation means, but once we start down this road, arguing what origins mean becomes pointless since we're moving the goal posts.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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I can think of stories for anything but Mutant, and I'm sure if i can make Natural work, I could find a way to squeeze in Mutant with some time to think about it.


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These are comic book origin stories. They're five generic backstories, each born of a different modern fascination, that explain how the hero got powers, and are so frequently used that really, pretty much every modern super hero falls into one of them.

Science: Hero gets powers from being exposed to some exotic substance or energy. "Ever since I got back from the exploration mission, I can't stop exploding. OH GOD GET BACK."
Technology: Hero gets powers from inventing or coming in possession of some machine or devices. "This may look like an ordinary salad fork, but in actuality...."
Natural: Hero gets powers from a life of training and ascetic discipline. "..."
Mutant: Hero gets powers from being born different from others of its kind. "So like omigod the principal totally almost suspended me for hanging by my ears from the goal post at the pep rally. She is such a racist."
Magic: Hero gets powers from a relationship with supernatural entities or forces. "My father was a god. My mother was a Holstein. DON'T. ASK."

I'm leaning toward Technology (as you are "in possession of" your own awesome mechanical self), but depending on your backstory and powersets, it could possibly be any of the five.

Mutant Robot: "Hey Doc... you said all these units are supposed to have exactly the same AI, down to every last bit, right? You better take a look at this." "A fractal quantum evolutionary transform?! It isn't supposed to be possible! Quick, give it a really big gun!"


 

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Actually there is one robot (or android as it has a high artifical inteligence) I may consider as a science origin. In one of Asimov's stories about three robot law "I, Human" protoganist robot started to develop organic prosthesis to be used on people and slowly replaced its metal body with them. I remember at the near of end he was asking someone if he could be counted as humansince he had emotions and organic body.


 

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Originally Posted by Kangstor View Post
Actually there is one robot (or android as it has a high artifical inteligence) I may consider as a science origin. In one of Asimov's stories about three robot law "I, Human" protoganist robot started to develop organic prosthesis to be used on people and slowly replaced its metal body with them. I remember at the near of end he was asking someone if he could be counted as humansince he had emotions and organic body.
Yeah, there was even a Robin Williams movie based on it... the Bicentennial Man. But you illustrated the exception that proves the rule.


 

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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent View Post
I'm leaning toward Technology (as you are "in possession of" your own awesome mechanical self), but depending on your backstory and powersets, it could possibly be any of the five.
I was about to say "except magic; we call those 'golems' instead" but then I remembered the game has Tin Mage as a canonical precedent.


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