Robot Character-- Science or Tech Origin?
By
Aneko,
Posted on: 2012-04-07 14:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm not sure if you were really asking for examples, but one of my own Mutation characters is an alien brood queen around several billion years old, who gave birth to her own species of hive mind drones. I consider her Mutation because I consider her drones to be her species, and compared to that species, she is clearly different and vastly superior.|
Originally Posted by ItsJustJake
I can think of stories for anything but Mutant, and I'm sure if i can make Natural work, I could find a way to squeeze in Mutant with some time to think about it.
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Most of my other Mutants are typically the X-Men kind. Either they were just born different, or otherwise born of super hero parents, but developed powers not entirely related to said parents.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm not sure how the game classifies it, but I consider Mutation to include the possibility of both "being born" or "being transformed." The Toxic Avenger would be a probable example of Mutant for me. So would Godzilla (assuming the "created by atomic bomb" origin is used.) Both are essentially Mutation accidents that are the indirect results of Science or Technology. I tend to think of Mutation, in general, as being undirected, where Science is intentional--however this really gets convoluted if the powers the Science character was trying for are different than what s/he ended up with. So there is a lot of flow between categories.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It's pretty easy to make an argument supporting any number of origins. One person's natural is another persons tech or even magic. Especially if you start trying to classify well known comic book heroes.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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I would go by which inherent power adds the right flavor? What is it? Taser dart versus a tranquilizer dart? One has electrical FX trailing it, the other is like a sleeping needle. Both could fit depending upon how you see this character.|
Originally Posted by Gothikaijuzero
I made a new robot character this weekend and gave him the science origin, as he is a creation of science rather than one who uses technology.
Now I'm wondering if I was thinking about it wrong... How do others see the origin of a robot character? |
I often use the origin power as the final decision maker on things like this.
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Sorry, but I do not agree. No where in the Science origin does it say it's always intentional; in fact it leaves the avenue open for Science Gone Awry.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I'm not sure how the game classifies it, but I consider Mutation to include the possibility of both "being born" or "being transformed." The Toxic Avenger would be a probable example of Mutant for me. So would Godzilla (assuming the "created by atomic bomb" origin is used.) Both are essentially Mutation accidents that are the indirect results of Science or Technology. I tend to think of Mutation, in general, as being undirected, where Science is intentional--however this really gets convoluted if the powers the Science character was trying for are different than what s/he ended up with. So there is a lot of flow between categories.
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| You received your powers either through purposeful scientific inquiry or some accident gone awry. You have since learned to harness your new-found abilities, becoming a powerful force in the world. This origin will give you access to Tranq Dart. This item has a very short range and deals minor Lethal and Toxic damage. In addition there is a small chance you can put the target to Sleep with the dart, but they will wake up the next time they are damaged or healed. |
My robot is tech origin. (Also non-sapient, but that's more a character concept than anything.) My basic sense is that "science" origin means some kind of weird underlying principle not widely known, while "tech" is just really good use of physics. You know, like how Iron Man was so powerful because his armor used "transistorized" electronics. (No, really! I had some of the comics back in the 80s or so, and that was the handwave back then.)
the difference between tech and natural btw is whether the superhero part comes from the device or skill. If you gave a normal person the same equipment would they be a superhero?
ironman is tech. Other people can put on his suit and be superpowered (not as skilled, but still superpowered). Rhodes did it back in the day (not as in trained to be Ironman, but found him drunk, put on the suit and went and fought a supervillain with no training).
hawkeye is natural. Other people given the bow and quiver would not be able to draw the bowstring let alone hit targets with the arrows.
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You're missing the fundamental difference. In CoH, Technology is a "You do this, you get that" process; Science is a "You do this, you get... what the hell is that?" process -- Technology is consistent, Science is unexpected consequences. It's better to think of it as "Mad Science", rather than just Science. The root of a Science origin is that, even if it came about through the application of technology, the results were vastly different than what was to be expected, and doing it again may not give the same results.
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Originally Posted by Kangstor
However CoH approaches to science as a biological/chemistry point rather than actual word and leave almost all physics related ones to technology.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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I'm not sure that's universally true. Captain America is usually considered an example of a Science origin, yet his empowering was entirely intentional and exactly according to plan. Granted, it proved impossible to duplicate, but mostly because the only guy who knew how died.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
You're missing the fundamental difference. In CoH, Technology is a "You do this, you get that" process; Science is a "You do this, you get... what the hell is that?" process -- Technology is consistent, Science is unexpected consequences. It's better to think of it as "Mad Science", rather than just Science. The root of a Science origin is that, even if it came about through the application of technology, the results were vastly different than what was to be expected, and doing it again may not give the same results.
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Originally Posted by srmalloy
You're missing the fundamental difference. In CoH, Technology is a "You do this, you get that" process; Science is a "You do this, you get... what the hell is that?" process -- Technology is consistent, Science is unexpected consequences. It's better to think of it as "Mad Science", rather than just Science. The root of a Science origin is that, even if it came about through the application of technology, the results were vastly different than what was to be expected, and doing it again may not give the same results.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
I'm not sure that's universally true. Captain America is usually considered an example of a Science origin, yet his empowering was entirely intentional and exactly according to plan. Granted, it proved impossible to duplicate, but mostly because the only guy who knew how died.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
While I don't want to argue against how you define your own origins, I do want to point out that this is inconsistent with how City of Heroes defines Science and Mutation. Science is most often accidental and Mutation most often innate. Science is Spider-Man or the Hulk, it's people who were exposed to "science gone wrong," an experiment that either wasn't supposed to happen or wasn't supposed to have the result it had. Mutation is essentially the X-Men. You don't have to stick to these definitions of the origins, of course - that's the best thing about the Origins system. That's just what they're described as officially.
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That isn't too far from my definition. But the inherent issue with Science vs Mutation will always be that the only real difference is the assignment of an intelligent agent. If a radioactive meteor randomly falls into the ocean and genetically modifies a sea snail, I would call that Mutation and not Science. If a nuclear warhead explodes and emits the same radioactive materials, I would still probably call it Mutation even though the origin is intelligent and vaguely scientific. Perhaps CoX has a different definition, but hopefully the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would qualify as Mutants on some level, even though their transition was (in some readings) accidental and they did not grow to their current size before exposure to the toxic substance.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Sorry, but I do not agree. No where in the Science origin does it say it's always intentional; in fact it leaves the avenue open for Science Gone Awry.
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Still disagree. That "toxic sludge" was still developed through a scientific process. Mutants are born with their genetics, period. That's what makes them mutants; they were born differently from the genetic norm.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
That's not what I mean. I mean "intentional" in the sense that "I am performing science!" not that the results of said science were predictable. I would make the call based on how close to scientific processes I felt the character was; Lawn of the Dead below was a weed created by the Monsanto Company, so, Science. A character not pictured, Richter Snail, was a sea snail that came into contact with toxic sludge: for me, that's a Mutant, because he's continuing to evolve, not continuing to experiment, and the character has no real interaction with Scientific trappings except that he now fights for the cause of good, just because.
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Mutant Vs Mutated.
Cosmic rays mutated the Fantastic Four
Gamma bomb mutated Bruce Banner
Radioactive spider mutated Peter Parker
Now if their offspring acquired some or all of their powers, they will be mutants.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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Probably true both Franklin Richard (son of Mister Fantastic and Invisiblewoman) and Spidergirl (daughter of Spiderman) counted as mutant if I remember correctly.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Mutant Vs Mutated.
Cosmic rays mutated the Fantastic Four Gamma bomb mutated Bruce Banner Radioactive spider mutated Peter Parker Now if their offspring acquired some or all of their powers, they will be mutants. |
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Good point. The way City of Heroes defines its origins, mutated characters are actually Science.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Mutant Vs Mutated.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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My main is a cyborg, and is Science origin. |
Originally Posted by Crashed
Depends. Does your concept rely more on the science involved with technology, or is the fact that it is a robot enough explanation for it's powers? Science for the former, technology for the latter.
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His abilities would be impossible were it not for the deliberate scientific experimentation involved in learning how the brain makes your muscles move. There is no computer involved in his cybernetic pieces at all, they are wired directly to his brain, which accepts them as it would his own natural limbs.
The cybernetics themselves would be tech origin, but it is the science of how they actually function that makes his abilities possible.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I have one robot character: Energy Pump.
"Energy Pump was just your average, mild-mannered, back-up, wood-fired electrical generator until he was bitten by a Nuclear Physicist."
Energy Pump is technology origin because Electric Armour comes from Energy Pump's function as a generator and Energy Melee is a function of the body the generator is now installed in.
The powers he got from the bite are sentience, near human intelligence, and the proportionate strength of a human.
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I tend to interpret the origin of a character's powers to constitute the nature of said powers, not so much the means of acquiring them. Thus, irrespective of how a character has acquired the technology or how it was developed, if this technology is at the centre of the character's powers, he's Tech. This is, obviously, where subjective interpretation comes into play.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The cybernetics themselves would be tech origin, but it is the science of how they actually function that makes his abilities possible.
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I actually have a character whose name I really should fix, who's a scientist that cracked the natural laws behind magic. Ignoring how intrusive this is to other people's characters (I don't RP or presume to share a fictional world with other people's stories), he's still of the Tech origin, despite the fact that he is using what is for all intents and purposes pure magical energy. The way his machines are designed, magic is used as a power source. Despite the fact that he had to use the knowledge of magic to develop this technology, it's still a piece of technology no different to Doc Aeon syphoning off the heat from a slumbering demon, spoiler alert.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Clarkes 3rd Law: Any Sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I tend to interpret the origin of a character's powers to constitute the nature of said powers, not so much the means of acquiring them. Thus, irrespective of how a character has acquired the technology or how it was developed, if this technology is at the centre of the character's powers, he's Tech. This is, obviously, where subjective interpretation comes into play.
I actually have a character whose name I really should fix, who's a scientist that cracked the natural laws behind magic. Ignoring how intrusive this is to other people's characters (I don't RP or presume to share a fictional world with other people's stories), he's still of the Tech origin, despite the fact that he is using what is for all intents and purposes pure magical energy. The way his machines are designed, magic is used as a power source. Despite the fact that he had to use the knowledge of magic to develop this technology, it's still a piece of technology no different to Doc Aeon syphoning off the heat from a slumbering demon, spoiler alert. |
Technomancer's Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of magic is indistinguishable from technology.
I see what you did there
(Also, Programmers Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demonstration.)
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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I think it was more Girl Genius' Law: Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from technology.
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Originally Posted by Gideon
Clarkes 3rd Law: Any Sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Technomancer's Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of magic is indistinguishable from technology. I see what you did there (Also, Programmers Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demonstration.) |
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You could argue that the children would be natural as there have been no mutations in their genes - they just inherited them "normally" from their parents. They wouldn't be a natural human, sure, but are they even human by then?
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Now if their offspring acquired some or all of their powers, they will be mutants.
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If they can cross-breed with humans and produce fertile young, yes 
IMO, your abilities are only Natural if you're born with them AND they're within normal abilities for your species. If you're born with the abilities (or at least, the genetics that later develop into abilities), that's Mutant.
I think the Origins are kinda intentionally vague to an extent, giving players more wiggle room to work with.
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Partly. I created this guy as something of a tribute to Arcanum: Of Steamworkds and Magick Obscura, where electrical currents could be used to protect against magic. I figured that if someone could understand WHY that works, who knows what he might achieve.|
Originally Posted by Gideon
I see what you did there
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Of course, this guy is a tad too preoccupied with his "infinite power" and more traditional scientific experiments, which is how I avoid having him step on the toes of proper mages. Well, my own proper mages, at least, can't speak for other people.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Gideon
Clarkes 3rd Law: Any Sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from magic.
Technomancer's Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of magic is indistinguishable from technology. I see what you did there (Also, Programmers Law: Any sufficiently advanced form of technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demonstration.) |
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Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
I think it was more Girl Genius' Law: Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from technology.
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I'm not sure how the game classifies it, but I consider Mutation to include the possibility of both "being born" or "being transformed." The Toxic Avenger would be a probable example of Mutant for me. So would Godzilla (assuming the "created by atomic bomb" origin is used.) Both are essentially Mutation accidents that are the indirect results of Science or Technology. I tend to think of Mutation, in general, as being undirected, where Science is intentional--however this really gets convoluted if the powers the Science character was trying for are different than what s/he ended up with. So there is a lot of flow between categories.