SSA #7 Story Discussion ** SPOILERS **
I was impressed with the whole SSA and felt it was well told and suitably dramatic. Super wade was a bit of a push over and I expected something a little awe inspiring.
As soon as I saw the new map at the end my mind said 'Mooooon base, hello!'
Its a real shame that you dont get SOMETHING for doing the whole arc, even if its just a badg, ornament for the base, or the artwork for the spash pages as pictures for the base. Just SOMETHING.
Also, Does the choices that you make in the press conferance actually have any affect on anything (apart from the attacking bit)?
Rockshock (Druid Tanker), Medicat (Combat Medic), Dwarf From the North (Ice Mage), Rocket Gal (Energy Blaster), Graveborn (Undead Mastermind), Streeker (Punching Speedster), Op. Sidewinder (Recluse's pet Spider)
So, business as usual then. The Well, as presented to us from the start, is nothing any sane, ethical person would have anything to do with. Now we're seeing Prometheus as being just as bad, which really was hinted at from the start. This is just more of the sadistic GMing we've had to deal with from the start, ranging from the initial endgame advancement option requiring your character to stick Devouring Earth substances in his body (what could possibly go wrong!) to the much-requested flashback system being tied to an obvious Nemesis plot to the UGC system being a product of known, obvious villains. Someone over there just fundamentally does not get it and doesn't want to.
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If that's true, then there's nothing I can do to stop them anyway. If I do find a way to beat them, it proves they were not so smart after all. But either way, trust is earned, and Prometheus just set himself into negative territory with his current set of revelations. He could very well be acting for the greater good, and I might even agree with his ultimate motivations if I knew what they were, and I certainly would not operate against him just because I think he's a twit on the chance he is, but I don't trust him and I would forever seek my own way around him.
Its less of an ethical prohibition against following such a person, and more of a visceral reaction to following such a person when my life experience says when someone tells me I'm not smart enough to understand, its always been them that was too stupid to explain.
But as to ethics in general, another thought occurred to me last night. Prometheus' explanation of why he didn't explain Ascension earlier reeks of a problem. There's nothing different about now that makes it easier to explain than a year ago, so there's no real reason he couldn't have explained it, despite saying hey, I'm explaining it now that you ask. We're asking now because of Wade, and Prometheus implies he knew about Wade and his plans all along.
Which means he let all those people die just to conduct an experiment to see if we were capable of taking Wade out.
He could have told us earlier that Wade was attempting Ascension, and what steps he might have taken, which could have helped.
I believe now that Prometheus *wanted* Statesman dead, because as he says, that means Statesman's power now returns to our Well. Its more power he can redistribute to fight Battalion through us. As villains, we might actually smile at the notion that Prometheus let Statesman die because it means more for us. As a hero, I would be compelled to shoot him in the forehead the first chance I had a weapon capable of doing it.
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That requires the writers to be smarter than you, instead of going with the story that basically has Prometheus being smarter and stronger.
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But in other respects yes: if you're going to write a story that hinges on having really smart people in it, you should be smart enough to at least emulate that level of intelligence, or work extra hard at it. Otherwise that's like writing a story that relies heavily on the sport of American football while knowing very little about the game, and saying that its not important that those details get done right because its fiction. If the quarterback hits a homerun, its not reality so that shouldn't matter.
We expect the writers and artists to get details as correct as possible: if you're going to spend huge amounts of time making sure a missile destroyer looks correct you should consider it equally important to spend time making sure smart people actually sound smart.
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...and saying that its not important that those details get done right because its fiction. If the quarterback hits a homerun, its not reality so that shouldn't matter.
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I'm not really sure that Prometheus is intended to sound "smart", unless you're equating "smart" and "knowledgable". If he and his cadre were omniscient then there would never be any "unauthorized" ascensions. I think he's just intended to sound cryptic. He certainly succeeds at being annoying and untrustworthy.
We expect the writers and artists to get details as correct as possible: if you're going to spend huge amounts of time making sure a missile destroyer looks correct you should consider it equally important to spend time making sure smart people actually sound smart.
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(mentally insert picture of the Architect from the Matrix here--the actual image was removed)
Which means he let all those people die just to conduct an experiment to see if we were capable of taking Wade out.
He could have told us earlier that Wade was attempting Ascension, and what steps he might have taken, which could have helped. I believe now that Prometheus *wanted* Statesman dead, because as he says, that means Statesman's power now returns to our Well. Its more power he can redistribute to fight Battalion through us. |
However, I believe that there's also another, more sinister (or less sinister, depending on your views) motivation.
If Rularu is truly ascended already then he/it is already a "well" or potentially could become one if he chose to put his psyche back together and commit himself to that goal.
Prometheus and his cadre allowed Wade's plan to go forward (presuming that they truly were capable of interfering as they claim) for two reasons.
The first is that it would not directly rob the Well of its energy the way that our character's ascension supposedly would do. If any such withdrawal of energy was going to happen, it already happened a long time ago.
Secondly, and more importantly, is that if Wade was successful then he would effectively be duplicating the methods of Batallion. He would be commandeering and taking personal control over a "well".
Wade's experiment was a proof of concept for a method that could allow Primal Earth mortals to use the weapons of Batallion against it and steal its energy sources in the same fashion that it steals the "wells" of the peoples that it encounters on its journeys through the universe.
Compared to that, I suspect that Prometheus would consider the deaths of a few thousand mortals to be an acceptable price to pay in order to learn the outcome of the experiment.
There appear to be a significant number of players who feel that "it's not reality" is actually a reasonable excuse for that sort of writing.
I'm not really sure that Prometheus is intended to sound "smart", unless you're equating "smart" and "knowledgable". If he and his cadre were omniscient then there would never be any "unauthorized" ascensions. I think he's just intended to sound cryptic. He certainly succeeds at being annoying and untrustworthy. |
I have devised this plan, guided you through it, so that humanity will stand the best chance of defeating Battalion and you will have the best chance of retaining your freedom from the Well. If I had believed that any of you, regardless of whether you were capable of ascending or not, would achieve equal or better results, I would have taken that course instead. That this displeases you is understandable, but my goal is victory against Battalion. The truth of the matter is this: you are not capable of ascending at this time, and even if you were, it would do more harm than good. |
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The part of my brain that imagines all of the really ludicrous possible outcomes of all of this has been wondering about the possibility of Shalice mind-riding into Rularu when Wade is defeated.
Also, I'm so smart there's no possibility whatsoever that you could contribute anything to this plan, so there's absolutely no point in me telling you anything about it until I need you to do something, or alternatively after its already happened and you can't possibly screw it up by using your brain.
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@Golden Girl
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Wade's experiment was a proof of concept for a method that could allow Primal Earth mortals to use the weapons of Batallion against it and steal its energy sources in the same fashion that it steals the "wells" of the peoples that it encounters on its journeys through the universe.
Compared to that, I suspect that Prometheus would consider the deaths of a few thousand mortals to be an acceptable price to pay in order to learn the outcome of the experiment. |
Perhaps as a doomsday weapon against them, possibly if things go bad, but we don't know enough about the Battalion to know yet if that's a logical idea.
Still, the general notion that Prometheus had an ulterior motive to observe what happened with Wade besides what he tells us - that it was to allow us to defeat him - has the ring of truth to it.
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A thing to remember with Prometheus from mythology: he's a trickster and a liar. He's fooled the gods before. The stealing fire from the gods to give to humanity was the final straw and Zeus (y'know, Stateman's former incarnation?) chained him to the mountain with the eagle for it. Don't trust him.
As for Arc 7... I had a lot of fun on it. The 3rd and 5th missions were really cool, and I liked the press conference bit at the end.
You want to know the secret of the world? It's this: Save it, and it'll repay you, every second of every day.
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A thing to remember with Prometheus from mythology: he's a trickster and a liar. He's fooled the gods before. The stealing fire from the gods to give to humanity was the final straw and Zeus (y'know, Stateman's former incarnation?) chained him to the mountain with the eagle for it. Don't trust him.
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That's technically what he's doing now - he's helping us "steal" power from the Well, which could imply that the Well iin some way connected to Zeus or other ancient gods.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
And remember that the mythological Prometheus did indeed seem to have at least some genuine concern for mankind (thus the whole stealing fire to give it to humanity bit), although centuries and millenia could certainly have twisted that significantly.
Do I believe the Prometheus that stands in Ouroborous? Mostly, but it's very obvious he withholds much more than he reveals. His association with Ouroborous itself is a bit suspicious, too. I tend to believe the Dream Doctor much more than I do Mender Silos, and that extends to Silos's associates, including Prometheus.
And remember that the mythological Prometheus did indeed seem to have at least some genuine concern for mankind (thus the whole stealing fire to give it to humanity bit), although centuries and millenia could certainly have twisted that significantly.
Do I believe the Prometheus that stands in Ouroborous? Mostly, but it's very obvious he withholds much more than he reveals. His association with Ouroborous itself is a bit suspicious, too. I tend to believe the Dream Doctor much more than I do Mender Silos, and that extends to Silos's associates, including Prometheus. |
Anyone who says "you dare question me" is in dire need of being questioned. And probably wrong.
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@Golden Girl
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And remember that the mythological Prometheus did indeed seem to have at least some genuine concern for mankind (thus the whole stealing fire to give it to humanity bit), although centuries and millenia could certainly have twisted that significantly.
Do I believe the Prometheus that stands in Ouroborous? Mostly, but it's very obvious he withholds much more than he reveals. His association with Ouroborous itself is a bit suspicious, too. I tend to believe the Dream Doctor much more than I do Mender Silos, and that extends to Silos's associates, including Prometheus. |
My other theory is that he used to be vying for the same status the Well of the Furies currently holds. He wanted to hold that status of being the mouthpiece and broker for the collective human potential and subconscious... and he lost. In the conflict with whatever entity the Well of the Furies once was (and I do believe the Well used to be someone. Maybe the first Incarnate, or Gilgamesh or the first hero or whatever), he ended up the loser and chained to a mountain for eons.
You want to know the secret of the world? It's this: Save it, and it'll repay you, every second of every day.
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Crow Call - Gods of the Golden Age
A friend and I did WWD7 tonight on our +3 Inv/SS Tank and +3 Rad/Rad Def. I had heard from a friend who did it earlier that the last fight was disappointingly easy and we wanted an epic conclusion to the story, so we ran it up to +2/x6.
Mission 1: Back to Cimerora. It turns out that a +2 Ghost Widow and her horde of x6 is a challenge, in fact moreso than Wade-a-ru (or whatever his name is). Obviously the difficulty was a good choice! Mission 2: Back to Warburg. Was disappointed that the tanks didn't fire and laughed out loud when Black Scorpion bit it because of the explosions. No, I didn't try to save him. Mission 3: My jaw dropped and I gasped when I entered this mission and saw the sky ladder of battleships. The final fight was anticlimactic because of the NPCs. I could have played tiddlywinks and it wouldn't have changed anything. Mission 4: Half an hour to find Scirocco. Gosh, that was fun. Not. Mission 5: Heroes in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaace! Space at last, thank you devs, we are in space at last! We spent 20 minutes taking screenshots in various poses and from various angles with the moon and earth as backdrop. The fight against Rularuu was fun, because we declined the villains' help. It was epic. I never saw Penny or this hypothetical bubble at all. Press Conference: Finally I'm the hero, because after mission three I was feeling rather sidekickish. Again. Penny's spot on the FP should be mine! I was heroing when she was learning how to put on makeup. All the errors.... Seriously, it's time they used a handful of trusted players to play test, proofread, and give feedback. It's such a simple thing and would result in a more polished product. I'll be repeating this arc just for the last mission, and to play Battleship. I'll speed the rest. |
Here is hoping the missions don't get old unlike a certain revamped red zone.
by Star Ranger 4 WIN LOSE OR DRAW, WE WILL FIGHT. WE ARE HEROES This is what we DO! |
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While DD does seem to be more heroic, I think it's interesting that his threat to send Ouroboros crashing into the sea in one of his letters, which he also repeats in the final DA cutscene, comes across badly when we actually see the citadel smashed in Mender Ramiel's arc - the way it's presented there makes it seem like a catastrophe, rather than an important victory.
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YOU were the one who went back in time and stopped me from destroying Rularuu! WHY! Dream Doctor... you were never my enemy, it seems. I truly hope the fates I have seen for you can be avoided... |
Maybe the DD/Ouroboros clash is ultimately caused by a misunderstanding and miscommunication on the parts of Silos and DD (and their mutual egos?), and Ouroboros' destruction is brought about by DD after all, but in a "aw, crud" kind of way?
Another note about the final story- maybe I missed it (tried scrolling back and didn't see anything), but I'd have liked to see some acknowledgement of how/why the Patrons other than Recluse disappeared before the final battle. I assume Wade did it, teleporting them back to Earth or something, but it just kind of abruptly happens, and I didn't see an in-game acknowledgement of why (I vaguely recall one or more patrons saying something like "what the...?" but am not certain if I just mentally shorthanded it or not.)
And remember that the mythological Prometheus did indeed seem to have at least some genuine concern for mankind (thus the whole stealing fire to give it to humanity bit), although centuries and millenia could certainly have twisted that significantly.
Do I believe the Prometheus that stands in Ouroborous? Mostly, but it's very obvious he withholds much more than he reveals. His association with Ouroborous itself is a bit suspicious, too. I tend to believe the Dream Doctor much more than I do Mender Silos, and that extends to Silos's associates, including Prometheus. |
2. The Dream Doctor joined the Midnight Club and helped guide them towards a larger role in the world.
3. Darrin Wade is an ex-Midnighter.
So. It is possible that someone in Ouroborus was behind Darrin Wade all along? Maybe it was a gambit on their part.
Outcome A: Darrin Wade ascends, takes Rularru's power, and there's another tool in order to fight the Battalion.
Outcome B: Darrin Wade is stopped, showing the power of the meta "humans" on Earth and maybe giving them information about Rularru that may help with Battalion.
Heroes of Justice: Geratron - 50 FA/FM Tanker
Villains of Infinity: Psychotron - 50 FM/FA Brute, Operative Gerald - 50 Arachnos Widow
Rogues of Exalted: Peanut Butter Fairy - 50 FM/FA Brute
I believe he believes most of what he says. I don't trust him to be necessarily right, nor do I believe him when he effectively says his plans are so inscrutable we couldn't do anything more than mess them up if we were aware of them.
Anyone who says "you dare question me" is in dire need of being questioned. And probably wrong. |
I am expecting the whole thing to hit depths of stupidity never thought possible, just so there's still a slim chance I'll be pelasantly surprised.
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Also, I'm so smart there's no possibility whatsoever that you could contribute anything to this plan, so there's absolutely no point in me telling you anything about it until I need you to do something, or alternatively after its already happened and you can't possibly screw it up by using your brain.
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His great plan to defeat the Battalion is to trick us into finding a way to defeat the Battalion. He can't.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
I ran parts 1-6 as a villain over the past month or so. Then I went Rogue, then switched to the Hero side of things. As a Hero I ran parts 1-6 on Blueside.
Part 7 treated me as a villain.
Which is kinda okay. That means they don't remember me being chained to the Idiot Ball.
Heroes of Justice: Geratron - 50 FA/FM Tanker
Villains of Infinity: Psychotron - 50 FM/FA Brute, Operative Gerald - 50 Arachnos Widow
Rogues of Exalted: Peanut Butter Fairy - 50 FM/FA Brute