Would you use Paragon Points to buy Epic/Power Pool customization?
By
Acroyear2,
Posted on: 2012-03-15 09:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Well, that's pretty damn entitled.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And yes, I would complain if someone tried to "give" me a car - not listed as a "project car" or "parts missing" - and it were missing basic parts. Yes, like a steering wheel.
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Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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No, it's meeting base expectations. |
Originally Posted by Mazey
Well, that's pretty damn entitled.
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If power customization were called "some power customization" or "partial power customization," you might, almost have a point. Much like I said in the post you responded to - if someone offered a *car* (expectations: complete) as opposed to a "project vehicle" or "fixer upper" (expectations: it will require money and labor on my part to get it to run.)
Me, I want them to *finish what they start.* Specifically, what they started in issue 16 and have talked about finishing since then. They've had six issues to do so, which, frankly, is yet another reason *not* to expect to have to pay extra for the basic (again, tinting/nofx, not fancy new alternate animation) work to get done.
Also, bravo on completely ignoring the rest of the post.
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No, base expectations are not being given anything.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No, it's meeting base expectations.
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It's so damn entitled that there is actually a saying in the English language specifically aimed at people who go "Yeah, you're giving me something, but it's not good enough or you didn't present it in the right way."
You may have heard of it, I believe it describes how you shouldn't peer into the front most orifice of a bequeathed equine.
Edit:
And no, I'm not ignoring the parts of your posts that I'm not quoting, I'm just not quoting them.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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Incorrect. |
Originally Posted by Mazey
No, base expectations are not being given anything.
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They have given us *part of* something. They have done *partial* work. If there were no power customization *right now,* and had not been as part of the *base game* for six issues, you would have a point.
However, you may notice we currently have *partial, unfinished* power customization. And given you *cannot* go from 1-50 without dipping into at least two power pools (taking all primary/secondary powers, you'll have nothing to take at 23 or - I believe 29, as well as 41, 44, 47 and 49,) it's not unreasonable to expect them to *finish* this. You *will be exposed* to it.
I assume you work for a living. I also assume your boss doesn't (a) have "He's not going to do anything" for a base expectation, nor (b) is he perfectly fine with you starting a project, getting 80% finished, and then insisting on charging for the last 20%. (Or 90/10, somewhere in there.)
"Entitled," as you insist on incorrectly using it, would be if I were saying "Not only should they finish it, but they should add 5 alternate animations for every power and give ALL of that free."
If you bother reading again, you'll notice I:
1. Want the basic work finished - tinting/noFX - that they started in Issue 16, thus finishing (without extra charge) what they started to give us (without extra charge, and do note they were selling costume packs and the like at the time so charging was not an unknown idea,) and
2. have *no* issue whatsoever with having to pay for extra, custom animations, as that would be perfectly reasonable to ask for more money for.
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So you're saying that, because they gave us something, rather than just leaving us with nothing, that puts your expectations higher?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Incorrect.
They have given us *part of* something. They have done *partial* work. If there were no power customization *right now,* and had not been as part of the *base game* for six issues, you would have a point. |
You're right, that's not just entitled, that's outright spoilt brat.
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| "Entitled," as you insist on incorrectly using it, would be if I were saying "Not only should they finish it, but they should add 5 alternate animations for every power and give ALL of that free." |
I believe you're being entitled, you believe you are not.
Now, to you, that's not a difference of opinion, that's me using the language incorrectly.
It's seems your entitlement extends to the point of believing you ought to have control over the meanings of words.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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And I'm done with you. |
Originally Posted by Mazey
So you're saying that, because they gave us something, rather than just leaving us with nothing, that puts your expectations higher?
You're right, that's not just entitled, that's outright spoilt brat. |
Yes, if someone produces *partial* work, I expect them to finish it.
If someone says they'll make a cheeseburger and gives it to me without cheese, that is incomplete work.
If someone says they'll paint a room but only finishes 3 walls, that is incomplete work.
If someone says they'll install a printer, and they just unbox it, plug it in and leave it sit there, it's incomplete work.
And yet you sound like you'd be perfectly happy with your no-cheese cheeseburger in your partially painted room with a printer that does nothing but suck down power, and be thrilled at the thought of paying those people *even more* money to get what you were supposed to have delivered in the first place.
Expecting work to be *finished* - which power customization *is not* - is not being "spoiled." It's a fairly common expectation of a customer paying for a service.
Again, *If it did not exist in game at all at this point,* there would be a wholly different conversation about paying for it. However, it does. It's a system put into game *free* that is not finished, that they have had six issues to finish so far.
Last, this game is not a gift. I have been a subscriber for nearly seven years, with one small recent break. I *am* paying for access with an expectation of a certain level of service and professionalism - including *finishing what they start.* I don't mind paying extra for "above and beyond" extras they may come up with. FINISHING WHAT THEY STARTED is not "above and beyond."
However, as stated, I'm done with you. It's not worth putting up with your BS arguing against a position the devs have not stated they'd take, and which I have some faith they'd realize would be foolish to adopt. In the various things the devs have disappointed me in - I doubt they'd disappoint me in this.
What I *do* think will happen:
They finish the basic (NoFX/tinting) power customization for pool/APP/PPP powers eventually.
They fund (or recoup) those costs with extra, 'fancy' or alternate animations that take more work and are sold, probably as a pack, in the paragon market. (And this extra pack, I'd be more than happy to purchase, not just to have the animations but to show support.... just like the wedding pack, way back when.)
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I don't feel anywhere near as adamantly about this as Bill does, but this guy up here is a bit out of line.|
Originally Posted by Mazey
You're complaining when someone gives you a car for free but then expects you to pay for the steering wheel.
Yeah, I think the word "entitlement" applies. |
Let's say you are a regular contributor to a non-profit organization and another donor offers to give a van to the organization. They say, "we're going to give you this van for free," which you think is very nice of them. Once you get the van though, you find that it is missing windows. Would it be a "sense of entitlement" if you approached them about the missing pieces and asked if they had plans to include them? I don't think it would.
On the other hand, if they said, "We can do that, but it would cost us money to do, so we'd need you to pay us for it" I think that would be pretty reasonable. At this point, you would decide how important windows are to you. If you would really like windows, you can pay for them, or you can continue to drive the van around without them. It's your choice, and I don't think any party is necessarily right or wrong.
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This. They'd get my money, and lose a bit of my goodwill.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'd pay it, but I'd think it was a crappy thing for them to charge for.
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@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Spend extra money beyond my monthly fee? Nah. It may be worth it to some, but it wouldn't be the first item I turned down.
The Bacon Compels You.
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Originally Posted by Acroyear2
I would never pay for this. Ever.
It should be free to all players just as the other power customization is. Charging a fee for it will just put a bad taste in the mouths of the player community, and push them away. |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
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No. This would be the sort of thing that would make me leave again, and warn others against getting involved with the game. It would be like a dealership selling you a car, then charging you an extra $3000 for the steering wheel, rear window and one of the wheels (rim, tire and all.) The work itself isn't finished, IMHO. It's something that nobody should have to pay for. The ONLY customization I'd pay for - and probably gripe to some extent about - would be if the base system were in there (with the most-requested options, as well, like disabling the hasten effect) already, and they were charging for some over-and-above extra fluff customizations. |
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
From today's Facebook Freedom Fridays, in response to someone referencing this exact thread:
I am not usually a blunt person, but: until this is done, along with the regular pool powers, "power customization" is an unfinished job. It should be in the schedule. Maybe you want to release two more Incarnate powers before you tackle this. Maybe your powers/animations teams are busy refining Beast Mastery and Staff Fighting, and working on a couple more power sets for the next few months. That's all good, and I get that. But this should, at least, be in the schedule. "Finding time" should not be an issue. Please, I implore you: make time. Obviously, that is my opinion and should be treated as such. |
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Originally Posted by JohnnyKilowatt
Spend extra money beyond my monthly fee? Nah. It may be worth it to some, but it wouldn't be the first item I turned down.
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No, I wouldn't pay extra for it. Not when the solution is already available. Incarnate powers are all listed regardless of which one you actually picked and pool powers are available to everyone. Ancillaries would be more problematic given they only appear on two ATs at most with minor variations.
I could settle for Patron powers being uncustomisable given how lore-tight they are and they're already pretty beautiful as it is.
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Probably not. I'd only consider buying it if it included brand new Power Pool's that would help me round out character concepts.
i would buy it and smile. if it takes my money to get them working on this rather than leprechauns so be it.
Honestly, yes, I would pay for it. I would GRIPE A MAJOR GRIPE about it, but I would pay for it.
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Just so you know, they said that they couldn't finish power pool/app customization "for Issue 16." This indicates that they were giving us an unfinished product, and they knew it. Then they told us that power pool/app customization had to be pushed back because of Going Rogue. Then Going Rogue launched and any power pool/app customization question was met with "we need to find time."|
Originally Posted by Mazey
So you're saying that, because they gave us something, rather than just leaving us with nothing, that puts your expectations higher?
You're right, that's not just entitled, that's outright spoilt brat. |
I'm sorry. What you're saying doesn't jive with reality. What Bill is saying does. They gave us an unfinished product - and knew it - and said they'd finish it later.
And now - aka "later" - we still don't have it, and not only do we not have it, it's no longer even on the schedule! That is absolute bull doody. That is terrible work ethic. That is horrible customer service.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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While I certainly think I've made me sentiments on the matter clear...
I'm not entirely certain that they expressly made the distinction of it "not being finished", or that they said they "would" finish it before Going Rogue or directly afterward.
I certainly got the impression that we might get it before Going Rogue and (if not) I really thought certainly get it shortly afterwards!!
However, I can't say for sure that they used any of the words that've been attributed to them, regarding these failed plans/designs.
I still say it is unfinished and that they should have made it happen and that it is quite odd that it has fallen off the radar. And that they did say things like "we'll see" and "we'll try" and such.
It's a slight difference, but I really don't want to attribute false words and/or promises to the Devs.
Then again... they may have said such things... as I've said, I am not entirely certain that they did, hehe... doesn't mean that they didn't.
The way I remember it, they were a bit more vague about it (which, I remember finding frustrating, because... It's so damned important!!!). 
I do know that Posi said to me in-person, when I asked about when customization would come for Pools and APPs and such, something along the lines of, "Let's get Going Rogue out first" and chuckling a bit, as we had been talking about how much work they were in the middle of for the upcoming expansion and his special top-secret endgame content stuff.
At that point, I certainly understood that angle, but I find it a shame that it wasn't picked up right afterward (as though I haven't said that enough on these forums, hehehe).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Actually, those analogies don't work so well. When you pay your monthly fee for this game, you're paying for access to the game. The ability to actually play the game without Free/Premium restrictions. Anything the devs put in the Issues comes at no cost to us, which means we're not paying the devs for anything within said Issues. Whereas, with your cheeseburger analogy, you actually are paying money specifically for that cheeseburger.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
And I'm done with you.
Yes, if someone produces *partial* work, I expect them to finish it. If someone says they'll make a cheeseburger and gives it to me without cheese, that is incomplete work. If someone says they'll paint a room but only finishes 3 walls, that is incomplete work. If someone says they'll install a printer, and they just unbox it, plug it in and leave it sit there, it's incomplete work. |
So when an Issue comes out that's not to your liking, you can't complain that much because you didn't actually pay anything to receive an Issue with everything you wanted. You paid to make sure you have access to this game, and the servers remain up and running.
Now, technically speaking, the system was finished. The devs intended it to be done with Primary and Secondary powers. The players just wanted more out of it, including myself. Positron was actually surprised players would want to customize power pools and the like, if anyone remembers that. But technically speaking, it was a finished system that they continue to implement with all future powersets. And since we're not paying them to continue with Power Customization, but instead paying them for access to their servers, we can't sit here and say "You're not finished. Back to work or I'll be mad." We can only say "Devs. Any chance you guys would be interested in adding APPs, PPPs, and Power Pools to your list of customizable powers?"
Also, to be honest, I really feel like you should take a chill pill. You're getting really worked up over something pretty small.
Also, I find that analogies are like analogies!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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That's a perfectly reasonable point of view, and one I share entirely. And it's completely different from the one Memphis_Bill holds.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I don't feel anywhere near as adamantly about this as Bill does, but this guy up here is a bit out of line.
Let's say you are a regular contributor to a non-profit organization and another donor offers to give a van to the organization. They say, "we're going to give you this van for free," which you think is very nice of them. Once you get the van though, you find that it is missing windows. Would it be a "sense of entitlement" if you approached them about the missing pieces and asked if they had plans to include them? I don't think it would. On the other hand, if they said, "We can do that, but it would cost us money to do, so we'd need you to pay us for it" I think that would be pretty reasonable. At this point, you would decide how important windows are to you. If you would really like windows, you can pay for them, or you can continue to drive the van around without them. It's your choice, and I don't think any party is necessarily right or wrong. |
To emphasis the point, look at these two posts of his:
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No.
This would be the sort of thing that would make me leave again, and warn others against getting involved with the game. |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
They have given us *part of* something. They have done *partial* work. If there were no power customization *right now,* and had not been as part of the *base game* for six issues, you would have a point.
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He's upset because he got part of it for free. He thinks he deserves the entire lot for free because he got part of it for free, and because he got something for free, he feels like he has the right to bad mouth the people who gave it to him. Not be thankful that he got anything at all but bad mouth the people who gave him something.
I don't understand how people can see that as anything other than an extremely entitled attitude.
And, further, an attitude that could potentially put the devs off of the idea of giving us new things that we want. Like giving us power pool customisation at all.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
That's great.
Everyone mark the calendar, as this is the day that Mazey proclaims Memphis_Bill is displaying an egregious sense of entitlement.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Sounds good to me.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
That's great.
Everyone mark the calendar, as this is the day that Mazey proclaims Memphis_Bill is displaying an egregious sense of entitlement. |
Don't forget to get started on the commemoration statue.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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No, I wouldn't pay. It's the sort of thing that should come for free, frankly. Of course, I think the same about the super tailor access. That's something that damn well should have been available at the tailor from the day it first went in for free.
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Originally Posted by Haetron
Figured this was a question worth asking/discussing. I think its a thing that is pretty much wanted across the board, but it's becoming painfully obvious at this point that if it's not something that can't be gated behind being a VIP or cost PPs, and isn't a game balance issue, it's not going to get dev time at this point.
I guess personally, it'd depend on the price. I was pretty annoyed with the fact the Super Tailor came bundled in an add-on pack purchase, and even with the Freedom Launch, think it's still overpriced and have not purchased it yet. So the question is, would you pay? And if so, how much is the cut off point? |
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
Vip only, sure, sounds reasonable,
paragon points, not a good idea, not something i'd go for. The game should incentivise vip subs, no question there, but gating the entirety of pp customization, behind a purchase for vips, no, not good. An additional thought. if they give base customization and later sell additional animation skins for pp's(combat knives, chakrams or some alien looking blade thing for shuriken throw), then im grudgingly ok with it, just base functionality should be included for subscribers.
While CoH Civil War is forming up here, one camp OK with purchasing APP/EPP Customization (or eating babies, whatever it takes) and the other demanding it be free, there is a special takeaway here; a good portion of CoH's players vehemently want this done ASAP.
I believe this has been brought up, but I asked this very question on facebook, referenced this thread, and the response was basically "We know its wanted, but we have to find the time for it." (paraphrased)
It's been 6 issues now since Power Customization was left unfinished, there are very few other suggestions or requests that would spur this much discussion and people basically begging for it to be done. War Witch, Positron, Dink, Tunnel Rat, whoever it takes, please please please find the time.
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Originally Posted by Lightslinger
While CoH Civil War is forming up here, one camp OK with purchasing APP/EPP Customization (or eating babies, whatever it takes)...
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Thanks!
Also, I completely agree with the rest of what you said!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Yeah, I think the word "entitlement" applies.
And yes, I would complain if someone tried to "give" me a car - not listed as a "project car" or "parts missing" - and it were missing basic parts. Yes, like a steering wheel.
If Paragon were a house construction company and Power customization were a house, they'd have the walls finished, most of the floors, half the cabinets, no doors or windows, and the crew would have taken a break for lunch a year ago and not come back. It is not a finished product. Wanting the house finished is not an unwarranted sense of "entitlement."
*AGAIN,* I'm not including fancy new animations. I want the *basic work* they started - NoFX options, tinting - with the other powers finished, as they've talked about for several issues now. If they want to sell "premium" bits (custom animations and the like,) that's fine - but *finish the basics.* Which they have not done yet. And should not charge for.