Discussion: EB's, AV's, and Challenge in Missions

I feel "challenge" is a misnomer here. Either that, or it's too broad and undefined a term. Personally, I don't want my gameplay to be so much "challenging" as I want it to be "engaging," and there is a subtle but very real difference. I don't want to get mired into discussing challenge, so let me explain what I mean by "engaging."

To me, engaging content is content which requires my active participation at all times, and also often requires my reaction, all of this in order to succeed. This doesn't have to be anything too difficult, either numerically or logically, just so long as I'm expected to do something, where not doing it will not allow me to succeed. Additionally, I want it to require me to explicitly NOT do something, where doing it will also prevent me from succeeding. I actually have two examples, one bad and one good.

The bad example is the new Galaxy City Tutorial. This is easily the game's most unengaging part because the whole task essentially plays itself. I can't die, so I can't do anything wrong, I don't have to fight the Giant Shivan because Vanguard jets will kill it anyway, and all else I need to do is take down three enemies and click on a person. It presents me with a lot of flash and fanfare, but it requires me to actually DO almost nothing.

The good example is Marshal Jason Blitz in the hero-side SSA3. This is easily one of the game's most entertaining battles, even though it's not all that difficult, or wasn't for me, anyway. The reason it's engaging is because Blitz changes tactics several times and the things I need to do to defeat him, or at least get to the next boss stage, change accordingly. I first need to break machines while under fire, then defeat an elite boss, then choose to either fight a tough, flying elite boss or activate glowies while under fire, and then fight an elite boss again. If I don't react to the situation, if I don't act accordingly, I will not win. If I attack Blitz while he's invincible, I CANNOT win because he takes no damage. I need to stop mashing buttons for a moment and actually think on the spot.

This, to me, is the solution to making more engaging gameplay - simply put more for the players to actually do than mashing buttons and staring at their power trays. Have something in the environment that I need to react to, but give me a WIDE margin for error on it. Not an insta-death patch on the ground that kills me if I don't react immediately, but more a boss who goes invincible until I do something specific, like the Lord of Winter. Have non-numbers-related dangers that I need to be aware of. Perhaps a pool of lava that I shouldn't stand in, perhaps a machine I need to be close to for protection, or perhaps the radiation-resistance bubbles from Terra Volta. Have bosses change up tactics, but don't have then do it too often. By all means, have a Fake Nemesis throw up a PFF and summon reinforcements if you feel it will add to the experience.

The whole point is I don't need to be challenged. I need to be engaged. I need to feel like my full attention is required and like my higher brain functions actually matter in the game beyond crunching numbers and planning builds in Mids'.

People have badmouthed new Stalkers a lot, but to me, they're one of the most engaging ATs around since the latest changes. They require me to be aware of not just my Hidden status, but they also require me to be aware of Assassin's Focus and the availability of Assassin's Strike, which in turn requires me to be aware of which powers are how likely to score a Focus buff, this lending more importance on my choice of power to use than "What's next in my pre-planned attack chain." It is when the game becomes a routine, an endless repetition of the same fight over and over again with no need for taught or judgement that it starts to become boring.

Hard or easy, a routine game is boring. Hard or easy, an engaging game can still engage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I've always thought, since the game first came out, that one thing CoH really missed was having a stable of "generic" villains for hire like you see in the comics that go from faction to faction just for the money.

When the safeguard missions came, and you put the rogues gallery of villains in there, I thought that finally there would be a push in that direction and that maybe we'd have a chance of seeing them in other places. But this never happened.

To that end I'd recommend creating a rogue's gallery of super villains . You can make them scale in level as needed or just have different villains that appear at different levels. With this system you could beef up the encounter fights that you think need it, while also making the encounter more colorful and breaking the GIJOE/COBRA mentality that seems to be in every faction in the game. You could also do random spawns called "heists" with special rewards and give people a reason to patrol . You could add all the new villains to the safeguards as well. I'd give a badge for each individual super-villain in the rogue's gallery and make it fun trying to collect them all.

Can there be a new 'extremely easy' option? I... I have empaths and bad building skills.

I feel like I missed something that was discussed elsewhere, because I don't really understand the question. I mean, currently, you can increase number of foes, increase level of foes, and scale down/include AVs/Bosses.

What kind of challenge do we want to make that isn't included in one of those options?

I'm very nervous about this discussion due to recent personal experience with an Elite Boss/Hero.

Everyone's pushing for More and Harder as the baseline. Personally I found even the current default frustrating enough. Thanks to class and skills, I was chewed up and spit out repeatedly. I had what I should have in terms of powers and slotting, but it was not enough thanks to sheer HP and damage from the target. The character could handle all else quietly.

That isn't a thing that should be. I would be very wary of difficulty changes when different classes can have so much of a different time vs a target thanks to choices they made right at the beginning in all innocence. The majority here are VIP, the guides and such are also built so. Effectively they are certainly the high-end with masses of Infamy and high-powered gear. The low-end should not be forgotten.

No matter what is done, a lot of testing is required. Multiple levels, multiple Origins, variable slottings, variable amounts of Inspirations used during it, solo AND team. Everyone who is forced into fighting Elites must have good odds.

That's all I care about. Difficulty can vary so wildly that such must be taken into account.

Just was thinking now about the Giant Shivan fight in the tutorial.


"How can you make it less anti-climatic/make the toon feel powerful instead of the Longbow jets killing the shivan?"


Well, it wouldn't be too feasible for you to take it down yourself...that'd unrealistic...if a lvl 1-2 can take something that big down....why not just lvled to 50 and start incarnate stuff?


So if that's out...why not have the longbow jets/copters make the Shivan vulnerable to the toon's damage?

Okay not bad but...still "have to wait for something to happen to actually do damage to the enemy" thing going for it. A better option I guess...but...



Why not have multiple glowies in a big fight like that? Have the glowies do different things? 1 would activate some turrets, 1 would activate some kind of slime that would cause different debuffs, etc....


*shrugs*

So maybe with other missions, have something like that? While fighting the EB/AV, you don't have to click on the glowies but maybe it'd make the fights go faster or, maybe you do have to click on the glowies but have ambushes continue to attack you...*shrugs*


Hmm.....

[QUOTE=Dr. Aeon;4155966]Hey everyone!

I wanted to start a discussion between me, one of your loving mission designers, and you all, the loving people of the forums. The point is to discuss challenge in mission content and how to make things challenging for solo players, small teams, and large teams, without just turning on and off the AV button. That's not to say that we can't still turn on and off the AV button for future content, however. There was an excellent example in a previous thread of how to make things more interesting with a fight, which was that instead of the EB scaling up to an AV, the EB has more EB allies to make things interesting for a full team. I thought this was a great idea, and I’d love to hear more. What we’re basically going for is...QUOTE]


The multiple EB thing is a great idea for teams. I didn't read the whole thread. So I'm sorry if someone else already suggested this. To expand on the idea...

1. Multiple EB's require them to be fought at the same time. Otherwise, dwindling health on 1 EB, could boost the health of another random EB. The health boost could switch to different EB's at any time and without notice.

2. Instead of health, you could do this with EB powers. The more the health dwindles, the EB gets access to more damaging powers. Sort of like the EB panicking because he is going to lose.

3. Maybe a random EB with attach itself to a random person on the team and has access to some of their powers.

The Tutorial is awful. The Giant Shivan battle is absolutely terrible. Embarrassingly bad IMO. I always park in front of it, /em chicken, and go make a cup of tea, and come back to find myself at the heli.

The Marshall Blitz fight in the SSA is fantastic. More of this kind of stuff please. The fight against the Chosen One (or whatever he's called) in the Abyss in the other SSA is awful, on the other hand. Just another toe-to-toe slogfest of who's got the most regen. One of the things i really love about the Marshall Blitz fight is it's entertaining and reminiscent of the 'gimmicky' trials, but it is soloable.

Which brings me to my personal hobby horse.

If you're going to look into making content approproately challenging for solo/small team/big teams, why not go the other way and make TFs challenging but doable for soloers too?

Or if that's got the anti-solo crowd spluttering in horror, at least remove the start minimums so that we can decide for ourselves wether or not we want to go for it.

It's about time those minimums disappeared. They don't really fit with the new 'player choice' ethos of the game.

Eco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Long ago, I built a 'no debuff, just buff' challenge faction in AE, and presented it in my mission 209245. (Yes, they do have some debuffs too, but not much.)

It runs like this:

With small numbers of bad guys, the internal buffs they can generate are small, and they are fairly easy.

With large numbers of bad guys, the buffing mobs get all the enemies buffed, and they turn into beasts. BEASTS I TELL YOU.

An EB is fairly easy. And EB who has been buffed to have a 90 percent chance to hit and 90 percent resists to all...is not easy, even for a full team. Several of these get downright scary.


That being said: The rewards for defeating such enhanced foes should be commensurate with effort!

Also:

In Praetoria, you introduced the concept of 'neutral but attackable' foes with the yellow cons.

THIS IS A HUGE ADVANCE. Please utilize this moving forward. Have three-way encounters with 'uneasy allies'. They help you, until/unless you attack them, and then they attack you right back.

This gives a very badly needed downside to AOE damage, as well as staggering the aggro times.

I say still throw in the AVs. The AVs tend to be notable NPCs! I don't thinkw e face them enough!

EBs on the other hand can be some tough oppenents that don't have to be signature, but rather rough and tough nameless lackeys!

But more of them in! It'll encourage teaming or building to solo them! And if they can't solo the EBs but prefere to solo, plenty of missions already out there with no EBs!

Or make it a purely level 50 deal.

Hi, Dr. Aeon.

There's a relatively simple mechanic found in Synapse's Task Force, where the team leader is given a one-shot temporary item that mezzes the Clockwork King for a while, the "Clockwork Immobilizer MkIV", making the fight much easier.

In theory, assuming the scaling number of EBs per team-member becomes feasible, a team of players would suddenly be forced to contend with multiple EBs instead of just one, with only one shot from their temp power to aid them. This would allow for interesting scenarios where the mission designer could significantly increase the difficulty of a fight without compromising its soloability (after all, the temp power works fine, as long as there's only one EB to defeat).

Barring that idea, network lag could be made to scale with each team-member, which would also raise the challenge of a fight

A gimmick based on the "activate simultaneously" mechanism: the enemy has high res to just about anything, but a weakness to a combination of two kinds of attacks that happens just about simultaneously, and if no other attacks happen at the same time. The two attacks are picked randomly from the team's available attack power pools and hinted in text as the players enter the mission.

If the two kinds of attacks, for instance some kind of Mind Control at the same time as some kind of Claws scrapper (picked randomly from the available powers of the team), and the fire tank has his aura turned off, then the weakness combo hits and the enemy's res drops dramatically for a short time.

For solo players, it could be a combo of one of the player's attacks and one of the villain's attacks - if those happen at the same time, the enemy's res drops dramatically.

Add a timer to it, or something else that happens at regular intervals, and you have a real incentive to discover the weakness mechanism.