Pay To Win: Performance Shifter
By
Angry_Angel,
Posted on: 2012-03-08 11:34 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
Well, technically they would still perform "equally" even in fast-charging AoEs, at least when compared to single target powers. If it had been designed that way to begin with I don't think anyone would question it -- the chance of a proc on an activation would be similar.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I know I wouldn't be happy about this.
Primarily, it seems mostly like change for the sake of change. Right now procs work best in fast cycling powers. After the change, procs would work "equally" in powers of all cycle times, unless they are fast-cycling AoEs. Is that "better"? It just seems mostly different to me. |
Currently however, most procs perform much better in AoEs than they do in single target powers, and PPM would change that. By that definition, it would be a nerf.
Quote:
| Perhaps there is a Arc/360° factor somewhere in the proc rate calculation, and that was what was being referred to. |
Except there's no /360 since Arc is in radians
Why can't they make both function exactly the same. I don't understand this at bit.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Quote:
In the internal representation, yes. In RedTomax and Mids, it's in degrees. Since I assume more people look at RedTomax and Mids than in pigg files, I think it's safe to state it the way I did. |
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Except there's no /360 since Arc is in radians
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(Note I also included a "degrees" symbol!)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
On the frontend maybe... There, fixed! :P
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
In the internal representation, yes. In RedTomax and Mids, it's in degrees.
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Quote:
Actually, the devs design cones and AoEs in degrees, and the design tools convert this to radians because screw degrees. So the implemented formula in the design tools probably uses radians, but the formula the devs would know "on paper" is in degrees.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
I think that's probably the case, rather than radius affecting it. AFAIK this is similar to how damage scale is calculated -- cones aren't penalized as much as spheres because it's harder to hit the max targets with a narrow cone.
Except there's no /360 since Arc is in radians |
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Quote:
Translation: You're BOTH wrong! Ha ha ha!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, the devs design cones and AoEs in degrees, and the design tools convert this to radians because screw degrees. So the implemented formula in the design tools probably uses radians, but the formula the devs would know "on paper" is in degrees.
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Quote:
As long as we provide the units, none of us will be wrong. Well, unless we do the conversions incorrectly. >.>|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Translation: You're BOTH wrong! Ha ha ha!
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I think we should start referring to all of them in Gradians, so that everyone loses.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
The more I hear things like this the more it sounds like those design tools . . . are an epic amount of fun to work with.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, the devs design cones and AoEs in degrees, and the design tools convert this to radians because screw degrees. So the implemented formula in the design tools probably uses radians, but the formula the devs would know "on paper" is in degrees.
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/sarcasm.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
As Positron said, you can do anything in Excel.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
The more I hear things like this the more it sounds like those design tools . . . are an epic amount of fun to work with.
/sarcasm. |
However, in my experience most people don't actually try to.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
They can. If you perhaps you mean to ask "why DON'T they?", well, I think that's been covered extensively already.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Why can't they make both function exactly the same. I don't understand this at bit.
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Quote:
Well I guess its more like they should be exactly the same IDK maybe i'm just shortsighted would not be the first or last time for that.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
They can. If you perhaps you mean to ask "why DON'T they?", well, I think that's been covered extensively already.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
No further word on when / how hard Synapse is dropping the nerf-hammer on the store-bought Perf Shifter procs??
Honestly? I think they're still thinking about how to handle it.
On the one hand, people have bought them - and for reasons of their own, are expecting what they bought to not change.
On the other hand, the "anti-pay to win" crowd have issues with them being better than the in-game drop/buy for merit version.
And, now that I know what "power creep" is, I can use it in a sentence! They have to be sure leaving it as is (and possibly upgrading the in game drop/buy version to make it equivalent) won't take things out of balance.
I don't think they are going to rush in with a fix. They'll probably take a peek at some data and then come to a conclusion one way or another.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
Ukaserex: I think the "traditional" reason for power creep was that, say, a pen and paper RPG was putting out a new supplement. Which would have new things in it that were supposed to be cool enough that people would want to play them, so they'd buy the new supplement. Which would tend to make them a little better than the old stuff.
The worst offender may have been RIFTS, but the worst one I ever played personally was Shadowrun.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Pen and paper rpg? You mean like..D&D? That game even exist today with all these computer games available?
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
Quote:
It does! They're working on 5th edition now, I think, and they've still got power creep |
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Pen and paper rpg? You mean like..D&D? That game even exist today with all these computer games available?
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Power creep, IMX, happens less as a marketing ploy and more as underpowered stuff gets fixed/replaced. In an MMO, a game is never perfectly balanced, so underpowered stuff usually gets buffed, but average things don't get nerfed, so over time the average moves upward. Players and devs also often feel that the target point for balance lies somewhere above the current average, and aim for that. P&P games are kinda similar; it's hard to patch books that are already published of course, but things in new books tend to use stronger existing things as a balance point, so if Wizards are the strongest in the first book, you'll have a bunch of classes comparable to Wizards in books after that.
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In a TCG like Pokemon Power Creep is very much a marketing ploy. Only with the HeartGold/SoulSilver and Black/White sets are they actually scaling back ANY power (and with Black/White they brought back Big Basic Pokemon with a vengeance).
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
It does! They're working on 5th edition now, I think, and they've still got power creep
Power creep, IMX, happens less as a marketing ploy and more as underpowered stuff gets fixed/replaced. |
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Not only that, but people like playing them!|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Pen and paper rpg? You mean like..D&D? That game even exist today with all these computer games available?
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Trust me, a live human steward can do things with a game like that that computer games can't even touch. The players can take the plot completely off the rails, and a good GM can adapt on the fly.
On the BBC website today there was an article about the Warhammer 40k table-top strategy game. Not really an RPG (though there is a WH40K PnP RPG), but it has the same "in person" thing going on where people play around a table together. Their profits are actually 40% over the last 6 months.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I don't have my actual data available right now, but I have done some testing that made me pretty sure that it does. I was getting a proc rate almost twice as high in a radius 7 PBAoE compared to a radius 15 one. 15 radius TAoE to 30 radius had a ratio of about 1.5. (Although as far as I know there's only one kind of power that has a radius 30 TAoE - control set AoE immobilizes.)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
By the way, we have redname statements but (so far as I know) no empirical evidence that the AoE modifier (A) is a function of both MaxTargets and area of effect. If it really does count both, that seems like a double hit on AoEs. Big AoEs usually are the ones with high MaxTarget values. I'm not sure why both should factor in.
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Now, when I did this testing, I was making some assumptions that may not be correct. Those are that PPM procs are in fact based on cycle time (which I've seen and done enough single-target tests to be reasonably confident of), and that the effect of cycle time on AoE powers is linear. If it *isn't*... well, the PBAoEs being compared were Black Dwarf Mire and Thunder Strike, which are very close in cycle time.
Edit: Actually, according to a post by Arcanaville, the modifier for AoEs is based only on the size of the AoE, with target cap not being a factor. @.@
-Morgan.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=287301
Patch in today:
Enhancements
- Reduced the procs per minute on the Store version of Performance Shifter: Chance for +End from 3 to 1.5 to be consistent with the Invention Origin version.
I wonder if that change could make even an Angel angry?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Quote:
hope they offer refunds when they roll out this change live
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Originally Posted by Angry_Angel
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=287301
Patch in today: Enhancements
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Quote:
Why would they? They didn't advertise a higher proc rate, and they stated immediately that if it was different, then that was an error.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
hope they offer refunds when they roll out this change live
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That's not necessarily the case for the Hecatomb proc, where they have waffled.
Quote:
Link to patch notes that went live TODAY.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
hope they offer refunds when they roll out this change live
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I haven't heard anything about refunds.
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The Mentor Project
Primarily, it seems mostly like change for the sake of change. Right now procs work best in fast cycling powers. After the change, procs would work "equally" in powers of all cycle times, unless they are fast-cycling AoEs. Is that "better"? It just seems mostly different to me.
By the way, we have redname statements but (so far as I know) no empirical evidence that the AoE modifier (A) is a function of both MaxTargets and area of effect. If it really does count both, that seems like a double hit on AoEs. Big AoEs usually are the ones with high MaxTarget values. I'm not sure why both should factor in. Based on anecdotes, it may be that AoEs with angles of effect less than 360 degrees (that is to say cones instead of spheres) actually have their proc chance reduced less by MaxTargets. Perhaps there is a Arc/360° factor somewhere in the proc rate calculation, and that was what was being referred to.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA