Pay To Win: Performance Shifter
By
Angry_Angel,
Posted on: 2012-03-08 11:34 in The Market and Inventions
So now the version you can get at real cash cost is inferior unless being used with Stamina.
Seriously, iit was just a bad idea to make the store enhancements play by different rules. They need to be a simple bought version of IOs, and IOs need to be level independent.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Originally Posted by Plasma
Why would they? They didn't advertise a higher proc rate, and they stated immediately that if it was different, then that was an error.
That's not necessarily the case for the Hecatomb proc, where they have waffled. |
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Originally Posted by Synapse
Hey all. This is an unintended benefit. I'll take a look at this today.
Regards, Synapse |
I didn't see anything about it - until two weeks later - in the Dev Digest from Synapse
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Originally Posted by Synapse
I thought I would chime in here with a note on how PPMs work versus how standard chance procs work.
PPM (Procs Per Minute) based enhancements use a formula to determine their chance to trigger. It is possible to get a proc to trigger 100% of the time on a power if you put it into a power with a long enough recharge. That is intended. Standard procs have a flat chance to trigger. This means it's typically more advantageous to put them into powers with very short recharge times. In short, PPM enhancements trigger more often in powers with long recharges and standard procs trigger more often per minute in powers with short recharges. There are advantages to both. That said, if there are PPM enhancements that grossly out perform their standard proc IO analog, then that is likely unintended and should be addressed. Synapse |
I didn't see this until, maybe... Late Yesterday(?) = At the earliest.
Along with "Oh, BTW - We're gonna be selling Purples Soon!" *For the 'low-low price of' JUST (approximately) $25 per Set*
So yeah, oh sure - that's fraking balanced?, fair??, What-The-(gold)Farmer???
I'm not exactly angry = No, I'm ~uhm~(?) Okay for the sake of discussion -> Lets call it, "Appalled"... I mean Really? Seriously??
*sigh*Note: The Hecatomb Set was announced back in the I22 Beta - I just checked = So, Its a VIP BETA except for the the "ALL ACCESS" sections of the forums right?
So, everyone VIP/Subbed can read the Beta Forums?? And no one can read this that isn't supposed to be able to correct???
If not my bad please Mod gently - if you must)
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
Link to patch notes that went live TODAY.
I haven't heard anything about refunds. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
City of Heroes didn't fail, City of Heroes was killed. If a 747 dropped on your house, you'd say you were killed, not you failed to find a safer dwelling.
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I guess they have not determined what to do.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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To me it sounds like they're just moving forward with the entire idea. However, they did not like the oversight of Performance Shifter SBE proc and passive endurance powers synergizing so well together. Only thing is that now the SBE is terrible in any other powers so it's pointless. |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I guess they have not determined what to do.
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I like to think that this was an isolated incident and will not happen again in the future (I know that sounds silly).
I'm still very unhappy about how the whole thing was handled and how there's no way get any refund on this. I PM'd Zwill about it and have yet to hear a response.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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Line Noise made this post in the Hetacomb thread:|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
To me it sounds like they're just moving forward with the entire idea. However, they did not like the oversight of Performance Shifter SBE proc and passive endurance powers synergizing so well together. Only thing is that now the SBE is terrible in any other powers so it's pointless.
I like to think that this was an isolated incident and will not happen again in the future (I know that sounds silly). I'm still very unhappy about how the whole thing was handled and how there's no way get any refund on this. I PM'd Zwill about it and have yet to hear a response. |
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Originally Posted by LineNoise
I think that the introduction of new purple SBE sets, even on Beta, is sending a *really* bad message when you guys *still* haven't said anything publicly about how you're planning on resolving the PPM vs. %proc debate.
You said in the last thread that you were planning on introducing *just* Hecatomb, then pulling it to gauge the results. Now it looks like you're about ready to go for the cash-grab, and to hell with the playerbase's concerns about pay-to-win and game balance. I'm... not happy with this. Not that you are required to *care*, really, but I want to state that I'm quite displeased with the overall handling of the SBE and PPM debate. I know a little bit about how development works, so I wasn't expecting an immediate answer to the PPM question, because it takes time to test, have meetings, test some more, have more meetings, etc. But with the introduction of the rest of the purples, you're making it look like we're being actively ignored, rather than just understandably delayed. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The fact that they exist doesn't bother me. It's the way that the incident is being handled that bothers me. Honestly, I really don't even know who to contact for this type of issue as it really isn't something that has happened before. As the community's liaison to Paragon, I figured I'd start with Zwillinger but that's been a bust so far. If not Zwill then who? A lawyer?
But seriously, at this point I really don't expect anything, but as a paying customer I woud appreciate ANY type of response. This whole 'let's just pretend it never happened' stance is very cowardly and somewhat surprising for a developer who's been good about keeping its community in the loop.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
I have found this thread to be very informative and very helpful in making new builds and upgrading old ones. Thanks for all this important information...
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Since I have never bought an enhancement of any type from the Paragon Market, can someone tell me what these Performance Shifters cost? I'm curious as to whether this lawyer comment is as stupid as I suspect.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
Honestly, I really don't even know who to contact for this type of issue as it really isn't something that has happened before. As the community's liaison to Paragon, I figured I'd start with Zwillinger but that's been a bust so far. If not Zwill then who? A lawyer?
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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The lawyer comment was obviously a joke as in the following line I said "but seriously". I probably spent around 7 bucks on these for multiple characters so it's not a huge loss, but the monetary value is not my main concern with this issue. My concern is Paragon's business practices and the precedence they are setting. Eventhough it's only approx 7 dollars I can't help but feel like I've been robbed.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Since I have never bought an enhancement of any type from the Paragon Market, can someone tell me what these Performance Shifters cost? I'm curious as to whether this lawyer comment is as stupid as I suspect.
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What if next week I bought points, purchase Staff Melee, then call my bank and put a stop payment on my Paragon Pounts purchase? You think they'd be completely okay with this? Of course not, but yet, I'm supposed to be okay with what they did?
I understand that those who did not purchase these could care less about what I'm saying, but try to look at the big picture and focus on the business aspect of this entire ordeal.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
The lawyer comment was obviously a joke as in the following line I said "but seriously". I probably spent around 7 bucks on these for multiple characters so it's not a huge loss, but the monetary value is not my main concern with this issue. My concern is Paragon's business practices and the precedence they are setting. Eventhough it's only approx 7 dollars I can't help but feel like I've been robbed.
What if next week I bought points, purchase Staff Melee, then call my bank and put a stop payment on my Paragon Pounts purchase? You think they'd be completely okay with this? Of course not, but yet, I'm supposed to be okay with what they did? I understand that those who did not purchase these could care less about what I'm saying, but try to look at the big picture and focus on the business aspect of this entire ordeal. |
Just so i know. I am not sure if its been commented on and i cannot see a post from a red name as i did on page one.
Have tey been nerfed already?
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Yes, store bought Performance Shifter proc was dropped from 3 PPM to 1.5 PPM. This was noted in the patch notes and no red name has issued any response to this situation.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Just so i know. I am not sure if its been commented on and i cannot see a post from a red name as i did on page one.
Have tey been nerfed already? |
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
With regard to the lawyer comment being frivilous, this could actually be adressed by the tool of a class action law suit. If you screw over 100,000 people for an average of $7.00 apiece, the total amoiunt of money at issue plus possible penaly damages becomes meaningful.
I have not yet entered my request for a refund, but intend to. I purchased one to try and then ten more after I saw how well they worked. When I soon learned that a nerf was possible, I left that 10 count purchase untouched pending the "fix," if any. Now that the purchased Procs are no longer desirable, and indeed inferior to the regular and easily obtained IO, I certainly feel cheated.
I think a more apt comparison would be if I had purchased a 30 piece costume bundle and the company, ex post facto and without any compensation, simply deleted half the pieces and said they were causing some problem that could not be resolved. Either situation is an abuse of the paying customer unworthy of an honest company, and may in fact actually be illegal under United States Consumer Protection Laws, where this company is in main located.
To be less wordy - this sucks.
Jak
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Well said. Even if there is something in the EULA that protects them in this scenario, it's still a very dishonest practice. |
Originally Posted by JakHammer
To be less wordy - this sucks.
Jak |
Eventhough the community may go back and forth whether the sale of PPM procs is a good idea or not, I don't think anyone would disagree about how lousy this Performance Shifter situation has been handled.
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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The enforceability of an EULA depends on several factors, one of them being the court in which the case is heard. Some courts that have addressed the validity of the shrinkwrap license agreements have found some EULAs to be invalid, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C. —see, for instance, Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology,[2] Vault Corp. v. Quaid Software Ltd..[3] Other courts have determined that the shrinkwrap license agreement is valid and enforceable: see ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg,[4] Microsoft v. Harmony Computers,[5] Novell v. Network Trade Center,[6] and Ariz. Cartridge Remanufacturers ***'n v. Lexmark Int'l, Inc.[7] |
Originally Posted by JakHammer
With regard to the lawyer comment being frivilous, this could actually be adressed by the tool of a class action law suit. If you screw over 100,000 people for an average of $7.00 apiece, the total amoiunt of money at issue plus possible penaly damages becomes meaningful.
I have not yet entered my request for a refund, but intend to. I purchased one to try and then ten more after I saw how well they worked. When I soon learned that a nerf was possible, I left that 10 count purchase untouched pending the "fix," if any. Now that the purchased Procs are no longer desirable, and indeed inferior to the regular and easily obtained IO, I certainly feel cheated. I think a more apt comparison would be if I had purchased a 30 piece costume bundle and the company, ex post facto and without any compensation, simply deleted half the pieces and said they were causing some problem that could not be resolved. Either situation is an abuse of the paying customer unworthy of an honest company, and may in fact actually be illegal under United States Consumer Protection Laws, where this company is in main located. To be less wordy - this sucks. Jak |
thats just of wiki
and i dont think a EULA could work here this was a direct purchase for a virtual item and not anything that you have done. The error was theirs, the brokeness of the item was theirs, it was not advertised and then it was changed after you bought them. I would be annoyed as well.
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While I agree it sucks, that analogy is not apt. Your example there is of them completely removing something you paid for. That's not what happened. They determined that the performance of what you paid for was too good and adjusted it. They did not remove it, or even make it useless. They made it less good than it was.|
Originally Posted by JakHammer
I think a more apt comparison would be if I had purchased a 30 piece costume bundle and the company, ex post facto and without any compensation, simply deleted half the pieces and said they were causing some problem that could not be resolved. Either situation is an abuse of the paying customer unworthy of an honest company, and may in fact actually be illegal under United States Consumer Protection Laws, where this company is in main located.
To be less wordy - this sucks. |
Moreover, they did not falsely advertise. They didn't say, "hey, these are 2.5x as good as the next best comparable thing, everyone come buy them now!" They put them out, realized they screwed up, and changed it.
There are a lot of things they could have done better. They could have communicated their error better. They could have tested it better before it went live - it seems pretty lame to me that they didn't notice how it works in the one power they have now pretty clearly tune it for.
However, while I have sympathy for your situation, I don't have empathy with it. All the PPM procs have a tendency to be better than "standard" ones, but Performance Shifters were so much better as to raise red flags immediately when I saw them. I had every expectation the devs would adjust them, and would have been absolutely floored if they had not.
For you to have wanted them quite so badly, you must have known how much better they were than normal ones. And if you knew how much better they were than normal ones, you should have known they were far too good to be true.
If I'm right about that, it leads me to think that you were counting on them not being able to adjust them because people bought them - something I would never assume about anything in an MMO because of the well-known advisement that the experience in an MMO is subject to change.
Again, if the devs are smart, they will handle this better go-forward. But no one should ever assume that because they buy something in an MMO that it cannot be adjusted later without compensation. There certainly are limits, and courts are hardly always sensible about where they decide those limits are, but so long as the company can show that a change was made as a good-faith keep things balanced in their product's environment, I don't think a case against this would have much merit.
Whether that leaves you willing to give them your money for things is another matter. It's completely within your rights to deny them your money for what they did and how they went about it. As someone who likes the game, I would clearly prefer they did not piss off other customers, even when they do not piss me off, and I do think they handled this much less well than they could. But I do not think you could sue them over it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The EULA relates to the entire game experience. Just because you pay extra for an item or service, so long as that item or service is a virtual item that exists only with the confines of the game, everything is covered unless the lawyers that wrote the EULA were very poor.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
and i dont think a EULA could work here this was a direct purchase for a virtual item and not anything that you have done. The error was theirs, the brokeness of the item was theirs, it was not advertised and then it was changed after you bought them. I would be annoyed as well.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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PS was at 3PPM while the IO is at 20%. There are several other SBEs with these same numbers. I don't see this trend ending as they introduce more SBEs (Ragnarok SBE on beta is also 3 PPM with 20% on IO). How can PS be an issue and the others not?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
However, while I have sympathy for your situation, I don't have empathy with it. All the PPM procs have a tendency to be better than "standard" ones, but Performance Shifters were so much better as to raise red flags immediately when I saw them. I had every expectation the devs would adjust them, and would have been absolutely floored if they had not.. |
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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The PPM procs you put in things like attacks and holds are pretty clearly intended to introduce average proc activation per time in click powers, instead of average proc activation per power activation. Yes, there's no way to introduce that without the new system being better in longer-recharging powers. So clearly there are increases in power present here. But did you really think it followed that, when slotted in the canonical places people slot PS procs, which happens to be an auto power, that these procs should deliver 3x the EPS recovery? Does that really make sense when contrasted with what the PPM procs do for click powers?|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
PS was at 3PPM while the IO is at 20%. There are several other SBEs with these same numbers. I don't see this trend ending as they introduce more SBEs (Ragnarok SBE on beta is also 3 PPM with 20% on IO). How can PS be an issue and the others not?
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Its actual performance in recovered EPS was close to 3x better than a normal one when slotted in Stamina and similar powers. That made it 2x better than the best EPS recovery IO we can buy any other way: Miracle uniques. And those are, you know, unique.
If anyone bought the PS PPMs and didn't know they worked that way, then they didn't realize they were getting such a huge boost, and while they might be sad, they wouldn't feel shafted when it was fixed. The only way to feel like you were robbed to the extent that you would talk about involving a lawyer is if you knew how much better they were, and I don't see how that extent of superiority didn't seem out of place in passives.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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That. You knew it was way over the top. You could have easily guessed this was not working as intended. And logically, you INITIALLY bought it for one of two reasons.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
The PPM procs you put in things like attacks and holds are pretty clearly intended to introduce average proc activation per time in click powers, instead of average proc activation per power activation. Yes, there's no way to introduce that without the new system being better in longer-recharging powers. So clearly there are increases in power present here. But did you really think it followed that, when slotted in the canonical places people slot PS procs, which happens to be an auto power, that these procs should deliver 3x the EPS recovery? Does that really make sense when contrasted with what the PPM procs do for click powers?
Its actual performance in recovered EPS was close to 3x better than a normal one when slotted in Stamina and similar powers. That made it 2x better than the best EPS recovery IO we can buy any other way: Miracle uniques. And those are, you know, unique. If anyone bought the PS PPMs and didn't know they worked that way, then they didn't realize they were getting such a huge boost, and while they might be sad, they wouldn't feel shafted when it was fixed. The only way to feel like you were robbed to the extent that you would talk about involving a lawyer is if you knew how much better they were, and I don't see how that extent of superiority didn't seem out of place in passives. |
1) An easy Performance Shifter
2) You heard from a friend it had 3 PPM and knew EVERY well that was outrageous.
No sympathy.
I will grant that there might be a few people who got particularly hosed by this change, and that would be someone who bought these to slot in something that's not a passive. I don't think anyone I know personally does this, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If they slotted these, they are now very likely to be inferior to a standard proc unless slotted in something with a very long base recharge time, like Accelerate Metabolism or something like that.
Such cases are, IMNSHO, a reason why it would be good if the PPM procs had a minimum real proc rate equivalent to the standard version. Then they could make these sorts of changes with the knowledge that the PPM would never be worse than the standard version.
Of course one reason I favor that is that it would allow them to change all procs (store-bought or not) to use the PPM system without risking nerfing builds where standard procs currently deliver superior performance, such as in cases like proc-laden Neutrino Bolt or something like Positron's Blast or Armageddon procs in a large but [edit]fast-cycling[/edit] AoE.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'd actually like to see an attorney argue this case.
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| Well, you see judge, my client pays to play this online superhero game. And then he bought this thing in the superhero game for even more money that was supposed to make him even more super. And it turns out the thing made him a lot more powerful at first, but then they changed it so he is only a little more powerful. |
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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I don't think it's anymore outrageous than 100% hide from Stalker SATO in AS or 53% chance for build up with decimation SBE proc in stalk/scrap Epic Pool holds. So how are we supposed to know what the devs consider outrageous before we make a purchase?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
That. You knew it was way over the top. You could have easily guessed this was not working as intended. And logically, you INITIALLY bought it for one of two reasons.
1) An easy Performance Shifter 2) You heard from a friend it had 3 PPM and knew EVERY well that was outrageous. No sympathy. |
Currently on Virtue:
Jinrazuo - Crab Spider
RWZ All-Pylon Solo Run
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My criteria were:|
Originally Posted by blueruckus
I don't think it's anymore outrageous than 100% hide from Stalker SATO in AS or 53% chance for build up with decimation SBE proc in stalk/scrap Epic Pool holds. So how are we supposed to know what the devs consider outrageous before we make a purchase?
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- It wasn't a completely new thing. The ATOs are completely new. The PPM PS proc was a version of something we already had, so we could compare it directly.
- Even for "replacement" procs like Makos and ToD, PPM procs are better in powers with longer cycle times than standard procs. But there's no analog for longer cycle times when talking about passives like Stamina, so there was no natural extrapolation that said it should be significantly better, at least in those powers.
- They sold Numinas, and the Numina's unique wasn't better. The non-PPM version has a 100% proc chance, so it can't get any better. A regular PS proc is a little better on average than a regular Numina's, and a store-bought Numina's is the same as a regular Numina's. That means the store-bought PS was significantly better than the store-bought Miracle, which is a big red flag to me.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The stalker ATO doesn't have a crafted equivalent to even compare to. The Decimation proc in the 32-second epic holds is a rather specific corner case; that proc is still fairly lackluster in most ranged attacks. Putting a Performance Shifter proc in Stamina is by far the most common use of that enhancement.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
I don't think it's anymore outrageous than 100% hide from Stalker SATO in AS or 53% chance for build up with decimation SBE proc in stalk/scrap Epic Pool holds. So how are we supposed to know what the devs consider outrageous before we make a purchase?
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.