Pay To Win: Performance Shifter
By
Angry_Angel,
Posted on: 2012-03-08 11:34 in The Market and Inventions
Quote:
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The EULA relates to the entire game experience. Just because you pay extra for an item or service, so long as that item or service is a virtual item that exists only with the confines of the game, everything is covered unless the lawyers that wrote the EULA were very poor.
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I agree, in part however and i may be mistaken and I think you may remember better than I, did we accept a new EULA the one i remember in the start of the game may not cover something like that.(just a thought not that it matters).
If so then he maybe just S.O.L.
If not then he may have more of a point. I think that getting a drop in the game say this Perf Proc. Vs. out right purchasing one with real dollars has a difference to it. (this is a mental excersise that i am sure their legal went over) But if they decide to drop the rates of something in the game such as a Blessing Zephyr S/L the way the did years ago. And they then drop the rates on the one you can buy at the market that changes things. Its already different and cannot be sold or traded, its account bound and has other drawbacks beside the need for real cash to be used..
I also dont think there is any real world parallel and if anyone can think of an example i would be interested in reading it.
Yep, just before they went F2P there was a new EULA. It came into the picture when the log-in screen first changed to the new UI that had States punching a 9CU.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yeah. When I said earlier that I wasn't pleased with how they've handled this, stuff like that is what I meant.
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Originally Posted by blueruckus
Even after Synapse made mention that PS was providing an unintentional benefit, it continued to be sold in the Paragon Market. You think every player reads the forums? Let alone a single comment on a thread in the Market and Inventions subforum? That one single comment is the only red name response I have heard on this whole issue.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I would think that the new EULA had market stuff in it. And if you did not read the 25 pages of fine print and accpted anyways then that is that.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yep, just before they went F2P there was a new EULA. It came into the picture when the log-in screen first changed to the new UI that had States punching a 9CU.
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Quote:
/em shrug|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
I would think that the new EULA had market stuff in it. And if you did not read the 25 pages of fine print and accpted anyways then that is that.
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The EULA says that you agree to it by clicking the "I Accept" button.
There is no "I Accept" button.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
As Henry would have said, this has not been well handled.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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That's the issue right there. They almost immediately realized there was a problem and instead of pulling it from the market or posting a warning they kept right on selling it.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah. When I said earlier that I wasn't pleased with how they've handled this, stuff like that is what I meant.
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While it was pretty obvious that it was going to get nerfed/changed, their lame response to the issue, that is none at the time to warn buyers, has given me pause to ever buy another SBE. Scratch that. It has given me pause to buy anything I might pre-purchase for future use on a character.
I think a similar analogy might be when they upgraded store bought inspirations to last 5 minutes. They put them on sale. A player runs out and buys a bunch. A couple months later they decide whoops, that is way too long. They downshift them to 2.5 minutes. Still 5x as long as a dropped inspiration in game but half what was being sold.
It's crappy customer service. They need to be smarter and more careful with what they sell on the Paragon Market under the Freedom model not sloppy we'll nerf it later if we mess up. I see no indication they have a concerned or concientious attitude about their sales. They are still acting like we are under the old "all is subscriber and we can nerf it if we want to and when we want to".
That's fine but this customer who has been quite spend happy in the Paragon Market has become a person who pays his sub and uses those points to buy in their market but I am not spending another penny on buying points to get things.
tl;dr I am moving from a subscribed and spending another $10/month on average for Paragon Market goodies customer to a subscribed and use the stipend points only customer.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Why would they have pulled it? So they could NOT make money off of word of mouth and our research? Do you think these are principled, honorable people? Just cause we were stupid enough to buy things we value doesn't mean we're entitled to said value or a refund when said value is invalidated|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
That's the issue right there. They almost immediately realized there was a problem and instead of pulling it from the market or posting a warning they kept right on selling it.
While it was pretty obvious that it was going to get nerfed/changed, their lame response to the issue, that is none at the time to warn buyers, has given me pause to ever buy another SBE. Scratch that. It has given me pause to buy anything I might pre-purchase for future use on a character. I think a similar analogy might be when they upgraded store bought inspirations to last 5 minutes. They put them on sale. A player runs out and buys a bunch. A couple months later they decide whoops, that is way too long. They downshift them to 2.5 minutes. Still 5x as long as a dropped inspiration in game but half what was being sold. It's crappy customer service. They need to be smarter and more careful with what they sell on the Paragon Market under the Freedom model not sloppy we'll nerf it later if we mess up. I see no indication they have a concerned or concientious attitude about their sales. They are still acting like we are under the old "all is subscriber and we can nerf it if we want to and when we want to". That's fine but this customer who has been quite spend happy in the Paragon Market has become a person who pays his sub and uses those points to buy in their market but I am not spending another penny on buying points to get things. tl;dr I am moving from a subscribed and spending another $10/month on average for Paragon Market goodies customer to a subscribed and use the stipend points only customer. |
Just Sayin
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I lol'd.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
Why would they have pulled it? So they could NOT make money off of word of mouth and our research? Do you think these are principled, honorable people? Just cause we were stupid enough to buy things we value doesn't mean we're entitled to said value or a refund when said value is invalidated
Just Sayin |
That alone says all that needs to be said about how badly this situation was handled.
Hopefully they learn from this experience when introducing new things on the market.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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They laerned that those "without a horse in the race" will defend their decision making emboldening them to do the same at a much greater scale|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I lol'd.
That alone says all that needs to be said about how badly this situation was handled. Hopefully they learn from this experience when introducing new things on the market. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=288581
the bait and switch continues
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You might want to keep reading the thread.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
the bait and switch continues
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Also, please stop calling this "bait and switch". Google it. It doesn't mean anything like this. Selling you a service that changes later is not what "bait and switch" means.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Dude, why you want to be bringing reason and common sense into a nerdrage thread? This is cheap entertainment. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
You might want to keep reading the thread.
Also, please stop calling this "bait and switch". Google it. It doesn't mean anything like this. Selling you a service that changes later is not what "bait and switch" means. |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
An sbe isn't a service, its not a subscription, it's a product
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
You might want to keep reading the thread.
Also, please stop calling this "bait and switch". Google it. It doesn't mean anything like this. Selling you a service that changes later is not what "bait and switch" means. |
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orly? When you can put one in my hand, I'll agree it's a "product". |
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
An sbe isn't a service, its not a subscription, it's a product
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
This game, and everything in it, is a service. Everything in City of Heroes exists only because that service is provided to you. You paid for your service to have extra features. It still does. The owner of the service changed the nature of that feature which they deliver as part of their service.
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Originally Posted by Cheetatron
An sbe isn't a service, its not a subscription, it's a product
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's fine, it just has little bearing on the fact people who bought the "Service" are now getting a different "Service". Its no different than if someone bought a years subscription to a service that promised to deliver images of da Vinci artwork to your picture frames, and after a couple of months they stopped and started with Salvador Dalis. They may have very good reasons for changing the content but it in no way alters the fact that Dali is not what was paid for.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
This game, and everything in it, is a service. Everything in City of Heroes exists only because that service is provided to you. You paid for your service to have extra features. It still does. The owner of the service changed the nature of that feature which they deliver as part of their service.
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A much more accurate analogy would be that this service could show all sorts of paintings, and you could pay extra to have them show you the classics, with a one-time fee per painting. You bought viewing of some da Vinci pieces. After a while, the provider determines that the way they were showing da Vinci was detrimental somehow to the rest of the viewing service, so they changed the way you receive them. Perhaps the quality is lower, or they don't load as fast. You still get da Vinci, but the delivery is not as awesome as it once was.
You paid a one-time fee to get each da Vinci you wanted to see, so there's no benefit to you in stopping paying for viewing da Vinci, even though you may not be satisfied with the delivery any more. You can stop viewing them, but they'll still be on your account should you ever decide to go back. Unless you delete them, of course.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I actually thought of that as an alternate.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
A much more accurate analogy would be that this service could show all sorts of paintings, and you could pay extra to have them show you the classics, with a one-time fee per painting. You bought viewing of some da Vinci pieces. After a while, the provider determines that the way they were showing da Vinci was detrimental somehow to the rest of the viewing service, so they changed the way you receive them. Perhaps the quality is lower, or they don't load as fast. You still get da Vinci, but the delivery is not as awesome as it once was.
You paid a one-time fee to get each da Vinci you wanted to see, so there's no benefit to you in stopping paying for viewing da Vinci, even though you may not be satisfied with the delivery any more. You can stop viewing them, but they'll still be on your account should you ever decide to go back. Unless you delete them, of course. |
Its actually a little ham handed but it does make the case. If you want to go with that case the initial situation would let you view the artwork on a limited basis prior to purchase. Before buying the right to view the artwork employees of the provider would have made substantial statements about the way the service is to be provided. Then at some point after the purchase, they would reduce the resolution from 1024x768 @ 32 bits/pixel to 128x48 in monochrome green with intensity of the pixel controlled by varying its duty cycle.
The people that bought these things were buying an advantage. They checked out what they were buying, and received assurances that the advantage they were buying was indeed what was meant to be sold. Now it's not an advantage.
Personally I don't feel that paragon should have been selling major advantages. But once they decide to do that they have to live with the consequences of playing with the terms of the deal.
Edit: Now that I think about it. Imagine if base builders buy the right upload large jpgs as textures for their bases ? What would happen if at a later point for some odd reason paragon decides they have to pull the feature, or do something akin to the de rezzing I mention above.
No matter how you slice, if you agree to provide a deliverable for a fee you are playing with fire if you play fast and loose with the nature of the deliverable.
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While I tend to side with the developers on this in principal, I agree with what I think is the spirit here, at least in the sense that it feels like they rammed these things into production. They worked technically - they didn't crash the servers or one-shot Hamidon or anything like that. But they don't really seem to have a strong feel for their place in the game's balance at the point where they went live. When you do that with something you're selling for extra, that's just asking for unhappy customers.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
No matter how you slice, if you agree to provide a deliverable for a fee you are playing with fire if you play fast and loose with the nature of the deliverable.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I guess I'm the polar opposite. (I don't see that as bad or good, it just is what it is) |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
While I tend to side with the developers on this in principal, I agree with what I think is the spirit here, at least in the sense that it feels like they rammed these things into production. They worked technically - they didn't crash the servers or one-shot Hamidon or anything like that. But they don't really seem to have a strong feel for their place in the game's balance at the point where they went live. When you do that with something you're selling for extra, that's just asking for unhappy customers.
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I read your analogy, but even though I "see" it, it boils down to this:
Some players bought the SBE expecting X, where X equaled what was in game. What they got, was X+y. A lot of people that got X+y didn't even know they got the +y. However, at least one person did (the OP) and those that saw what was going on felt it was an issue. (and obviously, for some, it is.)
Then, instead of X+y, they got X-y.
I'll be the first to admit that I sent a petition and asked them to take the few I bought back and give me my points back - for all the good that did. It just reeked of something improper. To sell me X+y, and then make it X-y, well that's just not good.
However, when it comes right down to it - at least for my characters that have X-y slotted, I can't tell the difference. As far as I'm concerned now, y is roughly equal to zero.
I got X, and that's good enough. It'll have to be. The only other option is to rage quit.
Obviously, it was a mistake that X+y went live. They missed it. Things happen.
There were probably a number of things they could have done, but in the end, there was nothing they could do to make everyone happy.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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My point was that I think they need to work harder to avoid getting into that position with items they sell for extra. They'll never make everyone happy when they make changes like this once they get into the position of needing to change them. But I think they could have avoided getting into this position with SBE procs to start with by listening to feedback given about the strength of these items in beta. If there had been no one expressing concern about them, that would be one thing, but a decent number of people did.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
There were probably a number of things they could have done, but in the end, there was nothing they could do to make everyone happy.
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I'm of the opinion that PS should not set the precedent of giving refunds, because MMOs are always subject to change, and people will demand refunds based on precedent if they were ever given for any change that affects something they bought. That slope is too slippery, in my opinion. But I also believe that they should set a higher bar for effort to avoid situations that cause items to change soon after being put up for sale, relative to the effort they might put into changes in things that are part of the base subscription.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
It has to be physical to be a product?|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
orly? When you can put one in my hand, I'll agree it's a "product".
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So games, movies, books etc bought, accessed and stored digitally aren't products? You got to get with the times gramps
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
I guess I'm the polar opposite. (I don't see that as bad or good, it just is what it is)
I read your analogy, but even though I "see" it, it boils down to this: Some players bought the SBE expecting X, where X equaled what was in game. What they got, was X+y. A lot of people that got X+y didn't even know they got the +y. However, at least one person did (the OP) and those that saw what was going on felt it was an issue. (and obviously, for some, it is.) Then, instead of X+y, they got X-y. I'll be the first to admit that I sent a petition and asked them to take the few I bought back and give me my points back - for all the good that did. It just reeked of something improper. To sell me X+y, and then make it X-y, well that's just not good. However, when it comes right down to it - at least for my characters that have X-y slotted, I can't tell the difference. As far as I'm concerned now, y is roughly equal to zero. I got X, and that's good enough. It'll have to be. The only other option is to rage quit. Obviously, it was a mistake that X+y went live. They missed it. Things happen. There were probably a number of things they could have done, but in the end, there was nothing they could do to make everyone happy. |
like ppm procs in app/ppp holds and other 50% - 100% goodness
So I bought x+y, to have x+y so as Upset as I am about getting ripped off with perf shifter I'm even more ticked about the rest of the SBEs getting nerfed too.
I can live with getting the IO procs nerfed across my builds but the stuff I bought getting nerfed? Refusing refunds even up to head GM level? Got Bilked? Yeah I did
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Products within "walled gardens", such as books or movies accessible to Kindle or Nook readers, apps installed via iPhone or Google app stores, or movies from streaming services all can be altered or removed without your consent, assuming you don't do something like root you device and disconnect it from the "garden".|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
It has to be physical to be a product?
So games, movies, books etc bought, accessed and stored digitally aren't products? You got to get with the times gramps |
Of course, Amazon or Barnes & Noble would be unlikely to need to "rebalance" the literary works on your device, but they could alter them without your consent. Amazon has, at least once, completely deleted a work from all Kindles where it was installed when a copyright case came up about it. I do believe they issued a refund, but that doesn't quite match the experience here. (NC/PS didn't delete your procs, they changed how they work.)
Apple and Google can and have completely removed paid applications from their respective phones, but these are, generally, produced by third parties. Such removal are usually only done when the product is deemed harmful, such as severe malware. That situation doesn't really apply here: if you paid for those products and want some recompense for the removal, you have to go after the developer, not the operators of the app store. There are no third-party items on the Paragon Market.
And the fact that these commercial comparisons don't line up well with the Paragon Market is in itself important. CoH is a situation similar to but very distinct from these others: a walled garden where all the products and services make sense only within that garden's own context. You can't sit down in your armchair and experience your SBEs or new paid powerset unless you can log in to CoH from said armchair. Movies and books have a context outside their viewers, but SBE procs don't have a context outside of CoH.
If NC/PS took away a persistent in-game item you had bought, then I would argue strenuously that they should offer compensation. That isn't what's happened here.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I was aware of that Amazon case and I believe they handled it in the best way possible the refund was automatic no fuss and ultimately amazon protected itself and users from copyright violations and I'm sure all of this was done at a cost to amazon(a lower cost then the copyright violations would have cost them but still they didn't keep their users money and hide behind the legalese of their eula)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Products within "walled gardens", such as books or movies accessible to Kindle or Nook readers, apps installed via iPhone or Google app stores, or movies from streaming services all can be altered or removed without your consent, assuming you don't do something like root you device and disconnect it from the "garden".
Of course, Amazon or Barnes & Noble would be unlikely to need to "rebalance" the literary works on your device, but they could alter them without your consent. Amazon has, at least once, completely deleted a work from all Kindles where it was installed when a copyright case came up about it. I do believe they issued a refund, but that doesn't quite match the experience here. (NC/PS didn't delete your procs, they changed how they work.) |
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Apple and Google can and have completely removed paid applications from their respective phones, but these are, generally, produced by third parties. Such removal are usually only done when the product is deemed harmful, such as severe malware. That situation doesn't really apply here: if you paid for those products and want some recompense for the removal, you have to go after the developer, not the operators of the app store. There are no third-party items on the Paragon Market. And the fact that these commercial comparisons don't line up well with the Paragon Market is in itself important. CoH is a situation similar to but very distinct from these others: a walled garden where all the products and services make sense only within that garden's own context. You can't sit down in your armchair and experience your SBEs or new paid powerset unless you can log in to CoH from said armchair. Movies and books have a context outside their viewers, but SBE procs don't have a context outside of CoH. If NC/PS took away a persistent in-game item you had bought, then I would argue strenuously that they should offer compensation. That isn't what's happened here. |
Even on a basic T2 8 second blast, decimation procs at around 14%, 3 times better than the IO version at 5%. I guess I'll just enjoy it until someone makes a stink about it and it gets dropped to .5PPM.
Once again though, my main issue really isn't the nerf itself but rather the business side of this whole fiasco.
Even after Synapse made mention that PS was providing an unintentional benefit, it continued to be sold in the Paragon Market. You think every player reads the forums? Let alone a single comment
on a thread in the Market and Inventions subforum? That one single comment is the only red name response I have heard on this whole issue. It's been days since I PM'd Zwill about it with no reply. I almost get the impression that they've been advised to make no comments on this matter while it's swept under the rug.
Currently on Virtue:
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