Is the MoM supposed to be completable by a PuG League?
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2012-02-04 16:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
The DD trial is not meant for people well into the incarnate system. It is the end path of a short arc in Dark Astoria that in no way will let players get themselves to an adequate level to which they can complete it. Dark Astoria being the solo-able path for incarnates.
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Does nobody read patch notes anymore?
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With the large team requirements for Trials, usually there are going to be some people you know on a PUG (in Victory, this seems to always be the case), but the rest will be gathered from Broadcast/Globals.|
Originally Posted by Arilou
For the record, what's the definition of a PUG used?
To me, PUG means picking up players in chat or via message (not, not that kind of picking up! That's what goes on in Pocket D) IE: any time you're not doing a group specifically with people you know beforehand it's a PUG. |
On a server like Freedom, I assume it's possible to have a literal PUG where no one knows anyone else on a 18 or 24 person team, but as long as a critical mass of people know what they're doing, I don't imagine there would be difficulty with MoM now that the strategies are established.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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I'd be all for that.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
You know..I am getting a little tied of leveling 1-50 in this game. Let's just have an option to BUY a token for 50 levels from the market! Surely we can't have people doing things they don't enjoy, or are forced too.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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My mistake. I don't have access to the beta forums so I don't have alot of info on the DD trial. Regardless there is still plenty of content players can do between hitting 50 and doing the harder trials, DD included or not.
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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
The DD trial is not meant for people well into the incarnate system. It is the end path of a short arc in Dark Astoria that in no way will let players get themselves to an adequate level to which they can complete it. Dark Astoria being the solo-able path for incarnates.
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They changed that. It's no longer attached to the arc.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
The DD trial is not meant for people well into the incarnate system. It is the end path of a short arc in Dark Astoria that in no way will let players get themselves to an adequate level to which they can complete it. Dark Astoria being the solo-able path for incarnates.
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In other words, they agreed with the feedback.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No.
| Is the MoM supposed to be completable by a PuG League? |
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Would that not go against the devs' dream of us all embracing the teamup teleporter as a way to form trial leagues?
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Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
No.
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I thought the Devs' dream was to change their dream every five minutes over the newest shiny idea?
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Originally Posted by Biowraith
Would that not go against the devs' dream of us all embracing the teamup teleporter as a way to form trial leagues?
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Originally Posted by Biowraith
Would that not go against the devs' dream of us all embracing the teamup teleporter as a way to form trial leagues?
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Not everything is designed to be PUGable. Majority of content ingame is able to be completed by a PUG, some parts arent.
This same rule applies to iTrials. Most of them can be completed by a PUG, two cannot and need some form of preperation beforehand.
[Also the TuT is far more useful now in i22 in its new state]
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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I'm unfamiliar with the changes - does it alleviate the issues it would have with non-PUGable trials?|
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Not everything is designed to be PUGable. Majority of content ingame is able to be completed by a PUG, some parts arent.
This same rule applies to iTrials. Most of them can be completed by a PUG, two cannot and need some form of preperation beforehand. [Also the TuT is far more useful now in i22 in its new state] |
I don't have any particular stake or strong opinion in this, it just seemed really odd that the devs would be adding non-PUGable trials to the TUT when previously they've given the distinct impression they were very disappointed that we don't just let the TUT form our leagues for us - and were pushing to encourage us to do just that (a method that would obviously result in PUG teams).
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Originally Posted by Biowraith
I'm unfamiliar with the changes - does it alleviate the issues it would have with non-PUGable trials?
I don't have any particular stake or strong opinion in this, it just seemed really odd that the devs would be adding non-PUGable trials to the TUT when previously they've given the distinct impression they were very disappointed that we don't just let the TUT form our leagues for us - and were pushing to encourage us to do just that (a method that would obviously result in PUG teams). |
ALL TFs/Trials in the game [with the exception of the CoP] are added to the TuT, also you can now use it while inside a mission so you can simply Que up for the selected TFs/Trials you wish to take part in and carry on as usual.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Ah right, thanks. |
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
ALL TFs/Trials in the game [with the exception of the CoP] are added to the TuT, also you can now use it while inside a mission so you can simply Que up for the selected TFs/Trials you wish to take part in and carry on as usual.
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That just reinforces my confusion at what the devs are aiming for though; Those changes are further encouraging us to use the TUT to form leagues, but leagues that by design will be PUGs (and probably sub-optimal, even for PUGs).
So the system used to access the trials - if we use it the way the devs apparently envisage - will generate leagues that aren't actually intended to be able to complete (some of) those same trials. That seems a bizarre approach to me.
I don't suppose it'll really affect me or most others, since I'm sure the vast majority will continue to pre-form leagues for even the now-routine trials, but it does leave me scratching my head a bit.
Oh well, I guess there's no point dwelling on it further - cheers for the info.
I've done two MoM PUG's on Freedom that qualified for Master of badges (everything but all Nightmares in the given runs which is impossible.) I've done more successful MoM's on Freedom than I can count. All it takes is good leadership, coming down to clarity of instruction and league composition.
OMG folks come on! Okay you want to strictly PUG constantly then do only the following:
LAM, BAF, KEYES, TPN
The Lambda and BAf are to the point where everyone KNOWS the strategy and even a 50 +0 can handle things so they provide an easy Emp per day along with Astrals and a few threads. Keyes strategy has emerged to the point where almost no one ever has to lead Anti Matter around from Terminal to Terminal anymore... about the only time you deal with him is the final fight. That's 2 emps a day, astrals and threads and the TPN, when the bug doesn't strike, is a smiple matter of running from building to building repeatly taunting troops away so you can defeat a tech. And thats 2 emps, 60+ threads ( with the reward), and astrals.
If you can't get a decent success rate on those four then you are hooking up with either the worst group of players with NO ability to follow instructions at all OR the absolute worst league leader in game that has no clue how to succeed and no ability to give instructions.
Now MOM and the UG are tougher and require some preparation and some thought but even those can be completed with a PUG if people listen to instructions.
Keys to MOM:
phase one: Make sure everyone knows to TRY to stay out of the pink stuff and emphasize NOT taking a bunch of Dez Rezzes .. or time run out
One pre trial tip is do a Destiny check and have players slot what you need. Make sure you have several clarions to counter the massive PSI you WILL encounter, a few Barrier (with Rez[es]) so players don't NEED to lay around dead or take the DEZ REZ as often and Rebirth to heal and avoid dying as much to begin with.
phase two: IMO this is the most challenging portion of the trail and as mentioned don't TRY to taunt voids. Get Penny to the middle of the room where the voids will float past her and fight there. It's a good idea to assign void kills to a small group of players to ensure they are killed where and when needed.. the rest just concentrate of defeating Penny and spamming buffs, debuffs, and heals till she is down.
phase three: rescuing Aurora isn't that hard. Assign a few players to protect Aurora by accessing the portals and the rest simply pound on Mother till she goes down. Remember if you see RED = RUN away if you see Blue + huddle for added buff.
phase four A : back to avoiding the pink stuff and battling Malaise. Each time his health drops to 50% Tillman will appear.. PULL at least one of the nightmares close to her and kill it.. then hit her with holds and immobs while you defeat her (rinse and repeat 3 times .. then battle Malaise down to 0%)
phase four B: rez every lore pet available, buff up in the short prep time available and just pour on the debuffs and damage until Tillman drops. Yeah you only get 3 minutes. I have seen her drop in under 45 seconds.
Okay arguably the hardest portion of the Underground is the Liken Healed WarWarker:
1. Assign a team to collect lichens while getting to the final battle with it to ensure as many as possible are available.
2. That same team has the job of destroying lichen during the final battle with the thing so it doesn't heal.
3. After the initial defeat, where players need to use all those glowies they colllected, PULL the Av to the North East corner (or anywhere available that ensures only 1 single lichen exists to heal it.. makes the lichen teams job very easy). Then pour on the debuffs and damage until it drops.
Yes there are battles before and after that but the place where I have seen the most failures is during that battle .. after it half of the rest is a simple race through the spore halls to avoid dying from infection before the final battle with the AV.
Again on the UG a small amount of PRE trial inventory can make a huge difference... "So exactly who has clarion and what level?" If you can't find a single tier 4 clarion and only a few t3s.. you may want to consider doing a TPN cause you will spned more time in that final chamber attacking each other than the AV. Make sure someone with a small amount of common sense has Dez so she survies to the end.. or trial is over. Best case is someone that has a heal .. worst case the TANKER you planned to have taunt the AV. Remember there are ways to pass DEZ off.. so how many of you still have self destuct floating around in your inventory and NEVER use it anymore? POOF I died and the MM with heals just HAPPENS to be the only player near me. lol Don't have Self Destruct? Okay are you aware that you can log OFF and back on and rejoin the trial? Or when all else fails .. run ahead of the league and let a mob kill you (least desireable since Dez will be following you)
I do trials with 4 different league leaders that all use these same strategies and we almost never fail ANY trial.. and most nights we run Keyes, then TPN, then MOM and finally UG .. the order sometimes varies depending on who leaves or stays.. obviously we don't want to kick people off a team just to run MOM and then have to re - recruit to do the UG. Now we have a core group of 8-10 players that gather nightly to do these things and then grab who ever is available for the rest but we don't have 16-24 man pre- determined team that has done all the trials so often we know our jobs in our sleep. We don't turn any AT away and while the last thing you want is a 21 man UG with 12 players at 50+0 we don't turn away a few at that level. I personally have had several brand new 50 levels that SUCCESSFULLY completed a UG, MOM and TPN before they even did a BAF or LAM.
The trails are a challenge, sure they are harder than other things.. You have as many as 5 powers more than you did at level 49. You are suppose to be tougher and able to handle more. Think of it this way.. remember back BEFORE we all had incarnate powers and players wanted to do an STF or LRSF? Did the team leader just grab a few players and charge into the thing or did they advertise for a good strong TANk on the STF to keep Recluse occupied? Did they advertise for RAD, DM or whatever to debuff Recluses lieutenants? Prior to it becoming almost a joke, it so easy NOW, did players spend huge amounts of time organizing an ITF? Ever try to complete a LGTF with no one that had a single hold? Its not like this is anything new. We HAD to do a little planning and figure out strategies that worked to succeed on those task forces way back when our characters were totally helpless 45-49 levels (note the total sarcasm involved in last statement) so what in heavens name made you think that the incarnate trials would be EASIER?
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I disagree. I feel it is entirely the devs' fault. But that's because I oppose the idea of trials in which critical information you need in order to have any reasonable chance of succeess is kept from you until you go in and, inevitably, fail (multiple times usually). Your own experience is indicative of this. In fact, I submit that the I-failed-it-X-times-before-succeeding-in-the-first-days-of-the-trial is so common as to be normative, leading to an overall first-time success rate in the low single digits. As I've stated in other threads, I consider that a serious design flaw.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Seriously though, sounds like your league was full of people who did not understand what that part of the trial actually needed. Which is not their fault, nor is it the Devs fault. I really doubt there were too many completed MoM's in the first few days, assuming mostly pug teams.
I failed it 5 times on the first day, completed it on the second. I rarely see them fail now. |
In MoM It Is All About High DPS (and therefore Level Shifts)
I'd also like to echo and emphasize the importance of level shifts in MoM. In at least three of the phases, having high dps which is not heavily reduced by the purple patch is essential to success. Against Penny you need the dps to make any headway against her while your meager supply of voids are making her damageable. Against the Shalices you need a combination of good soft control and high dps to keep them from reaching the Well in the center of the room. And in the final fight you need high dps to defeat Mother Mayhem in the three minutes you have available.
So if PuGs are too likely to fill the league with too many +0s and +1s, then that trial should probably be avoided by PuGs. Let that be a lesson to any leader trying to form a MoM league; be sure to stack the deck with as many +2s and +3s as you can, particularly when it comes to your damage dealers. Otherwise the purple patch will mortally hamstring your league during those phases where you can't afford to be low on dps.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I disagree. I feel it is entirely the devs' fault. But that's because I oppose the idea of trials in which critical information you need in order to have any reasonable chance of succeess is kept from you until you go in and, inevitably, fail (multiple times usually). Your own experience is indicative of this. In fact, I submit that the I-failed-it-X-times-before-succeeding-in-the-first-days-of-the-trial is so common as to be normative, leading to an overall first-time success rate in the low single digits. As I've stated in other threads, I consider that a serious design flaw.
In MoM It Is All About High DPS (and therefore Level Shifts) I'd also like to echo and emphasize the importance of level shifts in MoM. In at least three of the phases, having high dps which is not heavily reduced by the purple patch is essential to success. Against Penny you need the dps to make any headway against her while your meager supply of voids are making her damageable. Against the Shalices you need a combination of good soft control and high dps to keep them from reaching the Well in the center of the room. And in the final fight you need high dps to defeat Mother Mayhem in the three minutes you have available. So if PuGs are too likely to fill the league with too many +0s and +1s, then that trial should probably be avoided by PuGs. Let that be a lesson to any leader trying to form a MoM league; be sure to stack the deck with as many +2s and +3s as you can, particularly when it comes to your damage dealers. Otherwise the purple patch will mortally hamstring your league during those phases where you can't afford to be low on dps. |
Failing trials isn't a design flaw, it's not the dev's fault, learning by trial and error is standard in pretty much every game - mmo or single player game, MoM isn't just about high dps, having good aggro control, mez, buffs, debuffs, and healing add just as much to MoM leagues as dps does, first time success rate is NOT in the single digits - you realize that means failing at least NINE trials for every success right? (and that's just 1 in 10, low single digits success rate, meaning 1-5%, 5 groups of 100 groups will complete it their first time through it? you've got to be kidding me!), Level shifts are not out of the ordinary for a trial meant for people who are already into the incarnate system, if you aren't +2 or +3 there are plenty of other things you can do to progress yourself, if you are forming a trial for MoM but end up getting a high number of low level shifted people, do a different trial, no one is forcing you to do mom if you don't have a strong enough league for it, the final fight is trivial with lore pets, this comes with having people level shifted which this trial is meant for.
Really they should just flat out ban people from bringing +0s and +1s to newer trials, like how people lower than level 45 can't do a RSF or STF so this doesn't keep coming up. All it does right now is make people hate these trials cause they can't complete them with toons that the trials were not designed for.
No.
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And since there is no 'requirement' to be able to join them, a league of PuG members from a queue will very likely fail due to this lack of DPS.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
In MoM It Is All About High DPS (and therefore Level Shifts) |
Hence, it is left up to the playerbase to police themselves and form leagues as we always have in RWZ/Pocket D and then queue up from there.
The queue will likely remain for picking up a couple of extra non-essential league members who just want to 'tag along' (at least for the harder trials) even after i22 hits live. The vast majority will continue to pre-form and then queue.
I'd like to see a level shift requirement to ensure a 'certain level of participation is met' for the harder iTrials, but others oppose them and don't mind participating members who contribue 1/5 as much damage as others. I can see both sides of the argument and consider that a level shift requirement would help smooth out the harder trials (which would be good for the playerbase, I think), but doesn't matter either way as I won't be joining PuG MoM, TPN, UG, or DD trials and will simply politely duck out of the league pre-queue if it's a league full of +0s that don't stand a 'reasonable chance of success'.
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To what? Jranger?
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Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
No.
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Sorry, maybe a little too succinct. :P |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
To what? Jranger?
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To the original question, "Is the MoM supposed to be completable by a PuG league?"
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Which is why the queue is a bad idea for MoM. It should be formed in a zone where a leader/moderator can assess the chance of success based upon the level shifts available. If we are going to allow anyone to queue up for MoMs, it should require a certain degree of level shift (perhaps +2 to require all players to be fighting at max +4s) in order to participate.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Whoever was leading the league should have been aware that the AVs are 54+2, so any unshifted 50s would be fighting at -6.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
This is another reason why adding more complex fights to the 1-50 game is a good idea - it helps to train players for the Trials.
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So, the more cats you have to herd, the simpler the path to the litterbox has to be...
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Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
If more complex is what is being designed for a league of 24 strangers to team together for, no thank you. Simple and straightforward works best for that large of a league, in my opinion based upon the countless Keyes I have been on and the general percentage of the league who actually understands how that specific iTrial works.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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AND the more tuna you have to have (which is what they added to the harder trials)... pretty much, yeah. I, as a general rule, won't lead trials. I genuinely don't have the patience or presense of mind, to do so. So for me, even bad trial leaders I give kudos to for at least being willing to attempt leading them.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
So, the more cats you have to herd, the simpler the path to the litterbox has to be...
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That's another consideration. The more complex the trial, the less folks will be willing to lead them. Nobody wants to fail, even less want to be 'that guy (or girl)' that led the failed one. This is even moreso applied when it comes to participants.
There are two trial leaders I will willingly join every time I have the opportunity on my home server (or otherwise if they so deign but they seem commited), no matter what trial they run. I trust their ability to lead and explain, and have never run a failed trial with them at the lead. Getting a particular badge they were going for... maybe, but that's always chancey and when they asked they said they were trying for it, not guaranteeing success. I have always been honored when they ask because it means they think I can hold up my end of the deal.
There's a couple I will never run with, because the few times I ran with them (and have always given more than one chance) they capslocked, blamed everyone but themselves, were total pancakes over the whole ordeal, and never once owned the failure upon themselves in any way. Or even worse, started a league and then went on the idea that everyone should know what they're doing and never once gave any instruction at all, win or lose, and again, complained that others didn't do what they were supposed to do. Even then I've never spoken against them... I've just never sent the tell or tried to join whatever league they're forming.
Now, out of all the trials, I've never ran a MoM. Not because I don't want to, but because nobody, no group I've ever run into, wants to run them. Ever.
Some have suggested it and I've said "sure, why not?!" and the group screamed them down. At 50 I could care less about debt, and have learned to just enjoy and experience the story at 50+ (debt before then isn't my favorite, but even then it's just a badge at the end of the day...) However, even then there are folks that are squeamish about running anything more intensive than a BAF or Lambda, even with the changes to Keyes. They'll quit team at the first sign that it'll be at all challenging. Some will stay but still be unhappy about doing anything other than the BAF/Lam combo.
That, in and of itself, should be telling about the state of Incarnate trial content, because outside of a few exceptions I'm not picky in the slightest who's leading, and never about which one we're doing...
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I couldn't agree more.
I've been running trials the last few days to gather comparison data for the non-triial incarnate progression rates in beta, and my method is to broadcast 'tanker lf any trial' in Pocket D on Freedom. Lemme check my lists:
14 BAFs
6 sLAMs
3 Keyes
2 TPNs
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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The other problem (for me) is the reputation of old Keyes, Underground and TPN have soured my expectation for these newer ones and even if DD is as 'easy' as claimed; I won't give it a chance.
I know, I helped a few times in testing out a 50+0 league on it
The main problem people had with it was that it got introduced to the player as a mission after the DA arcs had finished, which meant that people/new incarnates would NOT be +3.
They removed the mission, everybody happy, no problem now. A league with a mixture of +1/2/3's could do this.
Honest question then. If you wont even give DD trial a chance, why voice your opinion against it with no experience? This is one of my biggest gripes with people posting anti-trial experience when they [in your own words] arent even giving newer trials the chance.
DD is by far seen as a baf level +3. In fact i'ld go as far as saying its even easier than baf with much better rewards.
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