Is the MoM supposed to be completable by a PuG League?
In a way, I am glad MoM is hard. It is the 3rd generation itrials and it's not meant for incarnates who have not advanced to 50+2 or 50+3. I think even 50+1 is a bit too low for second part of MoM because of all the auto damage and the spike damage from AV. Once you are dead, you will have a hard time getting up without a real rez. A small wakie will not do it.
Key point in MoM:
1. Bring Psionic protection!!! Widows and /dark are the best choice. I have the most easy time with my Fortunata. Several Mind Links will give the team a lot of psionic resistance. Those "pink patches" deal psionic damage I think because my Fortunata can stand in the patch for a while. The second time we beat MoM, we had 2 Widows. 2 Mind Links can really reduce AV's psionic damage by a large margin.
2. Bring more 50+2 and 50+3 which also means you'll have destiny. Barrier and Rebirth are needed.
3. Second part requires attention. Don't use any aoe that have immb/knock back or any control effects that can stop Voids from getting close. We were told to just use ST attack on AV and the tanker will bring one Void at a time when we need it. Don't use pets that you can't control.
MoM is meant to be a challenging trial for higher levels. I've failed it 4-5 times and finished 2 times. I don't hate the trial.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
In a way, I am glad MoM is hard. It is the 3rd generation itrials and it's not meant for incarnates who have not advanced to 50+2 or 50+3. I think even 50+1 is a bit too low for second part of MoM because of all the auto damage and the spike damage from AV. Once you are dead, you will have a hard time getting up without a real rez. A small wakie will not do it.
Key point in MoM: 1. Bring Psionic protection!!! Widows and /dark are the best choice. I have the most easy time with my Fortunata. Several Mind Links will give the team a lot of psionic resistance. Those "pink patches" deal psionic damage I think because my Fortunata can stand in the patch for a while. The second time we beat MoM, we had 2 Widows. 2 Mind Links can really reduce AV's psionic damage by a large margin. 2. Bring more 50+2 and 50+3 which also means you'll have destiny. Barrier and Rebirth are needed. 3. Second part requires attention. Don't use any aoe that have immb/knock back or any control effects that can stop Voids from getting close. We were told to just use ST attack on AV and the tanker will bring one Void at a time when we need it. Don't use pets that you can't control. MoM is meant to be a challenging trial for higher levels. I've failed it 4-5 times and finished 2 times. I don't hate the trial. |
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
If you're going to use a wakie in MoM (and you should, since taking a rez from Desdemona reduces your time by 15 seconds), if you died in a pink circle use a wakie right after they disappear then pop a wakie and a break free, you have ~5 seconds before pink circles drop again. If you didn't die under a pink circle make sure you're not rezzing before pink circles are about to drop, you can view the timer for the pink circles in the trial objectives window.
I want to say the pink patches are irrestable damage, but I haven't done MoM (or any trial) in so long I can't remember, so I could be wrong. The most surefire way to reduce the damage from the pink patches (and without having to depend on certain ATs) is Rebirth. With a few rebirths its quite easy to stand in pink patches and not die and this makes it a whole lot easier for the melee if someone(s) doesnt move away from the target before pink circles drop. Fortunatas and Night Widows are still fabulous for this trial though since they will help resist the direct damage of most of the AVs, especially nice for malaise because of his hax blind, your tank/brute holding aggro with a psi resist shield can easily be detoggled by his mag 20 hold, but psi resist buffs like mind link will still hold up.
2 (specifically 2, no more no less) Clarions are also pretty important for the last fight (and sometimes the 2nd to last stage also) as it prevents her confuse.
I only have two real objections to MoM.
One is manageable by player actions, but only to a certain extent. In the Penelope battle, if you are on a low-HP AT and you do die, you will often die again due to the environmental damage pretty much immediately after rezzing unless you can rez in a void's protective bubble. This is particularly true if you get stuck with the "stand up slowly" animation instead of the dramatic floating rez (which lets you activate powers and inspirations), or if you get a rez that doesn't give you full health.
I don't die much during the Penelope trial, but I have died a couple of times on support characters and then died repeatedly trying to get back in the action. That's never fun. Yeah, you can try to make sure you only die and/or rez in a bubble, but that's not always possible.
They could probably address this without touching the trial. No decent non-inspiration rez should force you to do that long stumbling stand-up animation.
The only other objection I have to this trial is that I don't really find it rewarding enough to play often. You get the completion table and the Emps, but a tiny number of Threads. UGT and TPN give what I consider excellent rewards, and Keyes gives two Emp Merits, though only once per day. If I want to run something multiple times per day for repeatable Emps, it would be the TPN every time, even though it's longer and requires more people to start.
Combine the reward with the fact that even tough trials like UGT are more forgiving of having "lowbie" 50s along (in terms of level shifts) and I'd usually rather form/join something else. I run MoM for badges and occasional giggles, but not so much for progress.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The only other objection I have to this trial is that I don't really find it rewarding enough to play often. You get the completion table and the Emps, but a tiny number of Threads. UGT and TPN give what I consider excellent rewards, and Keyes gives two Emp Merits, though only once per day. If I want to run something multiple times per day for repeatable Emps, it would be the TPN every time, even though it's longer and requires more people to start.
Combine the reward with the fact that even tough trials like UGT are more forgiving of having "lowbie" 50s along (in terms of level shifts) and I'd usually rather form/join something else. I run MoM for badges and occasional giggles, but not so much for progress. |
I still facepalm over the fact that TPN got the 60 thread bonus and MoM didn't.
1. Bring Psionic protection!!! Widows and /dark are the best choice. I have the most easy time with my Fortunata. Several Mind Links will give the team a lot of psionic resistance. Those "pink patches" deal psionic damage I think because my Fortunata can stand in the patch for a while. The second time we beat MoM, we had 2 Widows. 2 Mind Links can really reduce AV's psionic damage by a large margin.
2. Bring more 50+2 and 50+3 which also means you'll have destiny. Barrier and Rebirth are needed. 3. Second part requires attention. Don't use any aoe that have immb/knock back or any control effects that can stop Voids from getting close. We were told to just use ST attack on AV and the tanker will bring one Void at a time when we need it. Don't use pets that you can't control. |
Now do all those things with a bare minimum number of people who all joined separately via the queue. MoM's pretty darned easy if done right. Any League that can make it past Penny is pretty much going to stomp the rest. But this isn't about the trial itself, vs. doing the trial with a PuG.
|
I've only failed a MoM in the end fight once, but I totally saw it coming. Our (very "puggy") league just didn't have the DPS to defeat that last AV in 2 minutes.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Failing trials isn't a design flaw, it's not the dev's fault, learning by trial and error is standard in pretty much every game - mmo or single player game
|
The iTrials aren't challenging because they pose difficult problems for us to solve using the tools given to us through the experience of 50 levels of game content. They are challenging because they set failure as the default outcome and make you run the trial over and over, experimenting until you get it right. That's not CoX as I know it. That's the insidious "dungeon raid mentality" from all those other MMOs (which I've tried and hated) infecting CoX.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Around 1 in 20. That's my impression given what I hear day in and day out from people who talk about the iTrials, both on these forums and in game chat.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
The iTrials aren't challenging because they pose difficult problems for us to solve using the tools given to us through the experience of 50 levels of game content. They are challenging because they set failure as the default outcome and make you run the trial over and over, experimenting until you get it right. That's not CoX as I know it. That's the insidious "dungeon raid mentality" from all those other MMOs (which I've tried and hated) infecting CoX.
|
Keyes, Underground, and TPN, the focus then sort of seemed to change to just "beating" the players. It sort of reminds me of the original LRSF, where the devs came out and said "we're not actually sure this is beatable, but you'll probably figure out a way".
MoM is a step back in the right direction, to my mind, but not perfect. The new trial in Beta, as well, sounds more like some of the original ones, but I've not tried it myself so I can't say for sure (and I'm unlikely to try it, really, because I've just become too fed up with the general premise of the Incarnate system).
The problem, really, is simply that we're seeing level 55+ content, with no way to gate-out lower level characters. A group running the STF, for example, will never be lower than 49, meaning they'll never be more than -4 to what they're fighting. Running TPN and MoM means PuGers who don't know what they're getting into (or don't care, and simply intend to leech) are confronting -6s, and even -7s in Diabolique's new trial.
Basically, I think the best way to solve the PuG problem is just like it's already been solved elsewhere in the game. You can't join a Synapse TF unless you're at least level 15. Similarly, you shouldn't be able to queue up for MoM unless you have at least 2 shifts.
Except that it isn't. The standard paradigm of play in CoX is the standard mission content, and I don't know anyone who has been through ten levels of content, much less 50, who expects to likely fail every new mission the first time through. Even the classic TFs and trials (like the respec trials) are more like normal content than the iTrials in this regard.
The iTrials aren't challenging because they pose difficult problems for us to solve using the tools given to us through the experience of 50 levels of game content. They are challenging because they set failure as the default outcome and make you run the trial over and over, experimenting until you get it right. That's not CoX as I know it. That's the insidious "dungeon raid mentality" from all those other MMOs (which I've tried and hated) infecting CoX. |
Yeah, that sounds about right. Around 1 in 20. That's my impression given what I hear day in and day out from people who talk about the iTrials, both on these forums and in game chat. |
Reposting this here because not everyone is a VIP in this thread:
Up to this post, on the live servers only, these are my trial run/fail statistics:
BAF:
Total runs: 225
Failures: 15
Lambda:
Total runs: 213
Failures: 18
Keyes:
Total runs: 91
Failures: 5
UGT:
Total runs: 20
Failures: 11
TPN:
Total runs: 4
Failures: 0
MoM:
Total runs: 6
Failures: 6
As you can see, Keyes isn't a problem. Even the original Keyes with the horrendously annoying pulse damage and highly repetitive objectives isn't prone to failure. TPN is down-right repetitive and dull, but the AV damage is stupid. UGT and MoM though have an outright unacceptable failure rate. I've failed Keyes less than half as much as UGT, despite having run it almost 5x as much. I almost have matched the failure rate of MoM with Keyes, despite the fact that I've run Keyes 85 more times than MoM.
I can lead most PUGs to victory on a Keyes. I can't take a picked league to victory on a MoM trial. I have a coin flip chance of success or victory with a PUG for UGT.
As for the Dilemma Diabolique trial, after the first week I doubt I'll be able to find enough players interested in bringing their 50+3 characters to it to keep it being successful much less actually run.
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/snowglobesig.png)
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/SnowGlobe_sigprotest_zps7dee0180.png)
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Except that it isn't. The standard paradigm of play in CoX is the standard mission content, and I don't know anyone who has been through ten levels of content, much less 50, who expects to likely fail every new mission the first time through. Even the classic TFs and trials (like the respec trials) are more like normal content than the iTrials in this regard.
|
The iTrials aren't challenging because they pose difficult problems for us to solve using the tools given to us through the experience of 50 levels of game content. |
All new players since COH:Freedom went live are now totally comfortable with the way Trials form and work, which makes the transition to the post-50 game much smoother.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The notion of this thread is instantly dismissible because the question has already been answered. YES, MoM is completable by PuG's. Master of MoM (MomNomNomNom) is completable by PUG's. Just like anything else in the game, it is possible that many people have had bad luck in attempting to complete it. This doesn't mean that it's impossible. I can tell you it's not. I do it all the time.
Obviously the smaller servers are going to take longer to figure it out because the communities are less active and there aren't tons of people figuring things out and sharing what they've learned at a rapid rate. The solution to this is to either come to these forums (there's already tons of great info posted here on how to run this trial successfully) learn what you are doing and convey it to your server mates, or move to Freedom or another high population server.
You can't blame the game because you can't beat it. I remember when I was a little kid and I got stuck on a certain level on a Sega game or something, I would always say "the game is cheating." My parents had to tell me that in fact, the game wasn't cheating, I just hadn't figured out how to beat it yet. (In this thread I will not be bringing up the times where this game actually does cheat, because that is an entirely separate matter )
Th
Obviously the smaller servers are going to take longer to figure it out because the communities are less active and there aren't tons of people figuring things out and sharing what they've learned at a rapid rate. The solution to this is to either come to these forums (there's already tons of great info posted here on how to run this trial successfully) learn what you are doing and convey it to your server mates, or move to Freedom or another high population server. |
Whoa. This is probably the most wrong statement in this entire thread.
Both small servers and large servers have their advantages and disadvantages but smaller servers aren't disadvantaged compared to larger servers when doing trials.
I play on Champion, which isn't super small, but it does have a lower population compared to Freedom and Virtue. We completed both TPN and MoM on the first day they were out with PuGs and we have a much higher trial success rate than what many people claim their success rate is on these forums. I'm not trying to say we're better or anything, what I am saying is that because we have a smaller trial community we have a much more tight nit group and doing things the right way becomes common practice very fast, typically we're ahead of the game. This is greatly in part due to most of our PuGs having many of the same players on them. On larger servers there are alot more people that will have to learn how to do a trial, how the mechanics work, how the leaders run it, etc. We figure out our own strategies, many of which is different from what other servers do). We also aren't in a "SLAMBAF" til you drop rut, we actually run the newer trials far more than lam and baf (I personally almost never run BAF anymore and only run Lambda when there aren't enough people to do trials that require more people.
If you want to be able to hop on a trial team practically 24/7 then sure, Freedom is a good choice. But never say that smaller servers are going to take longer to figure out how to run new trials, because it's just not true, the QUALITY of players is what affects this, not the quantity, and quite frankly more is not better.
Whoa. This is probably the most wrong statement in this entire thread.
Both small servers and large servers have their advantages and disadvantages but smaller servers aren't disadvantaged compared to larger servers when doing trials. |
I play on Champion, which isn't super small, but it does have a lower population compared to Freedom and Virtue. We completed both TPN and MoM on the first day they were out with PuGs and we have a much higher trial success rate than what many people claim their success rate is on these forums. I'm not trying to say we're better or anything, what I am saying is that because we have a smaller trial community we have a much more tight nit group and doing things the right way becomes common practice very fast, typically we're ahead of the game. This is greatly in part due to most of our PuGs having many of the same players on them. |
It is not uncommon at all to log into Freedom, walk into Pocket D, and see an MoM or TPN recruiting in broadcast within 5 minutes of entering. That's on top of the 4 BAF's and 2 Lambda's recruiting. On smaller servers, you're seeing one or two groups of people a day running trials. That means that the rate at which trials are being completed is much lower. Sure, your ratio of success might be higher or as high as large population servers, but they are still doing them more. More players are learning at a faster rate.
I have actually had more failure at Keyes (old & new) and UG than TPN or MOM.
I like playing on servers that any trial is basically available any time I am playing. Did total PUG MOM and TPN today (a few +3's the rest of us were +1-+2)- both succeeded. Found it funny though that I did a PUG sLAM today and we failed LOL - haven't failed a sLAM/LAM in forever! Most important thing an itrial pug needs is people willing to listen and follow instructions.
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/snowglobesig.png)
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/SnowGlobe_sigprotest_zps7dee0180.png)
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Sample size is dependent on trial availability. So the sample size isn't too small... The amount of trails available to me is too small.
|
That and it's one server that does not itrial much...Triumph.
|
Most important thing an itrial pug needs is people willing to listen and follow instructions. |
I've been running trials the last few days to gather comparison data for the non-triial incarnate progression rates in beta, and my method is to broadcast 'tanker lf any trial' in Pocket D on Freedom. Lemme check my lists:
14 BAFs 6 sLAMs 3 Keyes 2 TPNs Eco |
Not surprising. MoM and UG are generally run on a tell-only basis. That is, when they advertise that they are running that trial, to get on you need to send a tell that you are interested in joining.
I am still surprised at a lot of the claims made in this thread. I cannot stress this next detail enough:
You do not need a team of all 53 to complete the trial
Seriously, just last night I hosted a PUG MoM with 14 people, only requirement being 52+ (one toon was 51, but I let it slide), and we thrashed it nearly effortlessly with minimal instructions needed. The only hiccup that occurred was when the Giant Monster in the fifth phase was killed behind Shalice, meaning she couldn't get mezzed that run. Afterwards, it was smooth sailing.
It isn't about DPS either. The greatest issue in the MoM trial is survivability. Any toon that doesn't live too long ceases contributing to the run, and the more deaths that stack up the less likely you are to succeed. If everyone can survive, I would expect a team of mixed 50-53 toons to be more than capable of beating the trial. But, as far as my experience goes, level 50 toons just plain don't survive. Whether it is the AoE attacks from GMs in the first phase, the Mother Mayhem copies in the first phase, or Yin's constant DoT + Lighting + Pulse zone wide damage, 50's kiss the floor quicker than Usain Bolt, since they are fighting an enemy that does 66% more damage than an even-conning AV. Failures at the sixth phase of the trial are so rare that they get special mention each time they happen.
Second, I succeeded at my first MoM run. Funny thing, I thought the TPN was a boatload harder than MoM for the longest time because of this. Of course, I am slightly exceptional in the case that I did the following:
- I researched the trials beforehand, reading their descriptions on the CoH official site.
- I actively asked questions before the trial started, and during the MoM trial when we had breathing room.
- My response to discovering that there was no hospital was, and I quote, "YIKES!"
Nowadays, the trials, at least on virtue, have their vets and their newbies grouped together. So each time a run is done successfully, those 3 or 4 guys who have never done the trial before complete it successfully. I'm not sure where that whole 5/100 thing comes from, but if the RP server is any indication of how things go, then I'd say at least a third of all new players succeed first time. The exception to this rule is during when the trial is first released, in which at this time there are no veterans and strategies concocted to ease the difficulty.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
It is too small to be weighted with any significance. I've said this before to you, to make your findings have any weight you need to get those results from all servers from multiple people and compile them.
|
I've done so, have you?
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/snowglobesig.png)
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/SnowGlobe_sigprotest_zps7dee0180.png)
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
And as I've told you before... The only group that HAS that data aren't willing to share it. You want a large sample, get the red names to cough it up. Until such a time as they are willing to share that data, all any player has to go by is keeping an accurate tally of their trials.
I've done so, have you? |
I play on Pinnacle, and pretty much everything I do is PuG, for a certain definition of PuG. I have an SG with a total of two members, and expanding to my global friends list gives a grand total of five people, so I have to find teammates somewhere else. That said, most recruitment I do is via the main global channels used on Pinnacle, but if I can't find enough people, I'll turn to Broadcast/Help, sure.
When MoM released, I ran a few, recruiting random people through global chat. On the third attempt, we were successful, with several badges. I've since run MoM a number of times, sometimes asking for shifts, sometimes in groups with a bunch of +0s. Sometimes I was in charge, sometimes I wasn't. I've run it enough to have the Master badge on my main, and I've also run it on at least one other character. It is ENTIRELY doable with a PuG. In fact, I'm of the opinion it's easier with a PuG than most other trials, as long as the leader does two things.
1) Warn EVERYONE going in that if they talk to Desdemona, you'll kick them from the league. That way, you have all the time in the world to explain the trial. I seriously have a macro on my main I can fire 2-3 times to warn people
2)Give a brief, minute, maybe minute-and-a-half summary of each phase. Explain "First, we drop Malaise to 50% health, simple AV fight. Then, he chickens out, we gotta kill our way through three other AVs to get him back. When these nightmares show up, there will be purple voids on the ground. GET AWAY from the voids, they grow and deal heavy DoT as they do. Tanks, feel free to haul the nightmares halfway across the map if you need to. Once the third nightmare drops, Jade Spider appears, but is on our side. Kill Malaise, and we all come back here for tea."
How hard was that? Two chat messages? Maybe a third mentioning the hospital situation, but you only gotta do that once. If the leader's explaining things, and everyone does it right, the trial's actually not that hard. Hell, I was on one where there was at least one person with absolutely no idea what was going on, but the leader thought we were all people who'd done this before, so didn't stop to explain. Except that we had to tell the new person not to go killing voids in the Penny phase, there were no problems at all, and it was about as quick as a BAF run, with better rewards, despite about half the league being at +1 or +0.