Is the MoM supposed to be completable by a PuG League?
By
Arilou,
Posted on: 2012-02-04 16:00 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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From my informal experience here is the frequency of itrials on Freedom:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I've already done a few trials on Virtue, and plan to move some of my incarnate characters off of Triumph (to make room for new characters) to do so.
However my experience with Virtue showed me that MoM isn't being run a lot even THERE, when compared with other trials. |
BAF
LAM
Keyes
TPN
MOM
UG
BAFs and LAMs are continuous on Freedom.
Keyes and TPN are probably ran half as much (on average I would say 1 every 60-120 minutes)
MOM is probably ran once every 2-3 hours
UG is probably ran every 3-4 hours.
Then again some days it seems one itrial is ran a crazy amount; Monday it was TPN for example. About 2 weeks ago I personally did 6 MOMs right in a row with mainly the same PUG team (a few people would log after one etc).
Not going to make this yet ANOTHER "Triumph doesn't complete trials and the Devs need to fix that" thread. Incarnate trials are an optional part of the game much like pvp and RP - my advice is if you cannot find what you want on your "home" server then you may need/want to branch out to a different server, and this does not mean the problem is with the trials. If I want itrials I stick to Freedom. If I want an RP community I stick to Virtue. Stating there is a problem with the itrials because a server cannot/will not complete them is illogical when so many other servers have stated over and over that the itrials are being ran there successfully on a continuous basis. That would be like me telling the devs that they need to fix pvp because it is almost non-existent on Pinnacle. I have no issues with the itrials in general and those that I do not like---I do not run more than once or twice (badges ya know). I am not trying to be "snarky" or anything like that, but the same old "fix the trials because Triumph can't do them" is tiresome due to the basic fallacy that there is something wrong with them; because of the way Triumph avoids them.
Agree - Disagree - it is your choice.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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And the Incarnate System is supposed to be a selling point to being a VIP.|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
Incarnate trials are an optional part of the game much like pvp and RP
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Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
my advice is if you cannot find what you want on your "home" server then you may need/want to branch out to a different server
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I've pointed out where there are problems with some of the trials. Even people that disagree with me as to whether or not Triumph in particular should be more active doing them agree that I've found spots on the trials where they aren't working properly.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Every time I read a thread like this I feel a bit more reassured that the game is not being completely dumbed down and that incarnate rewards still demand some semblance of effort and skill to achieve which, given the amount of whining from the playerbase, must not have been easy to maintain for the developers.
Rock on, devs!
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The trials work fine. All of them. If you're having trouble with them, you really need to stop and consider that your environment and/or luck are factors. Freedom PUG's all the trials successfully multiple times on a daily basis, many times being Master runs. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I've pointed out where there are problems with some of the trials. Even people that disagree with me as to whether or not Triumph in particular should be more active doing them agree that I've found spots on the trials where they aren't working properly.
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Unless you have an elaborate conspiracy theory where your server gets more difficult versions of the trials in LFG, or there are Dev moles planted on your server for the express purpose of ruining your trial experience and giving you something to complain about, your argument falls flat on its face.
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No they don't. This evening I and 15 other people spent 36 minutes fighting through the TPN without any problem only to be all DCd at the final TP to Maelstrom fight.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The trials work fine. All of them.
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I couldn't log back in on the toon in question at all. I'm waiting for Support to sort it out.
I don't call that working fine.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Doesn't change the fact that it is optional.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
And the Incarnate System is supposed to be a selling point to being a VIP.
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| And that is about as useful of a suggestion as a server merge. |
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
No they don't. This evening I and 15 other people spent 36 minutes fighting through the TPN without any problem only to be all DCd at the final TP to Maelstrom fight.
I couldn't log back in on the toon in question at all. I'm waiting for Support to sort it out. I don't call that working fine. Eco |
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Bull.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The trials work fine. All of them.
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Specific example: Being penalized for use of the trial's rez while making the available inspirations (awakens) useless is broken. Simply put, using an awaken during the Penelope phase of MoM is a complete waste of time, yet that is the only rez inspiration available in the trial.
Another example: The War Walkers 3 modes in the UGT are broken as they do not provide enough warning to players not being targeted to get away from said targets.
Another example: The Lichen Infected War Walker doesn't provide any visual clue as to what lichens are affecting its regeneration.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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MoM's system of rezzing isn't broken. If you're using an awaken at the wrong time, that's your own fault. There are plenty of opportunities to use a rez and live. There are other people that can rez you, or heal you after you rez. You can pop a break free and some greens after rezzing as well. If you're dieing in the penelope stage you /should/ be dieing next to penelope (everyone should be grouped up in melee with her), which means there will be a bubble there or one that will get there soon, or you can have someone teleport you into the group. If you've tried and can't use an awaken, just take the Desdemona rez, it's usually not a big issue unless there's a ton of people doing it. And if a ton of people are dieing you're probably looking at a fail anyways whether your timer is being reduced by rezzes or not. |
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Bull.
Specific example: Being penalized for use of the trial's rez while making the available inspirations (awakens) useless is broken. Simply put, using an awaken during the Penelope phase of MoM is a complete waste of time, yet that is the only rez inspiration available in the trial. |
It's part of the challenge, it's not "broken" just because you don't like it.
As I said in my post above yours, UGT's warwalker mechanics do need to have much better visual queues, so I agree with you on that.
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QFT... just saying.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
MoM's system of rezzing isn't broken. If you're using an awaken at the wrong time, that's your own fault. There are plenty of opportunities to use a rez and live. There are other people that can rez you, or heal you after you rez. You can pop a break free and some greens after rezzing as well. If you're dieing in the penelope stage you /should/ be dieing next to penelope (everyone should be grouped up in melee with her), which means there will be a bubble there or one that will get there soon, or you can have someone teleport you into the group. If you've tried and can't use an awaken, just take the Desdemona rez, it's usually not a big issue unless there's a ton of people doing it. And if a ton of people are dieing you're probably looking at a fail anyways whether your timer is being reduced by rezzes or not.
It's part of the challenge, it's not "broken" just because you don't like it. |
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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MOM's rezz system isn't technically broken.
It is, however, fundamentally awful.
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It IS retarded*. It isn't fun. It IS highly abusive of the developers for including it when they don't provide a reasonable alternative to the rez system in that trial. It is also the direct cause of the trial having a high failure rate, which I personally find unacceptable.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
MOM's rezz system isn't technically broken.
It is, however, fundamentally awful. |
* (retard) be delayed.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
It IS retarded*. It isn't fun. It IS highly abusive of the developers for including it when they don't provide a reasonable alternative to the rez system in that trial. It is also the direct cause of the trial having a high failure rate, which I personally find unacceptable.
* (retard) be delayed. |
It's not even the reasonable alternative to the rezz system that bothers me. It's that the entire mechanic revolves around the idea that some teammates are so expendable that if they die you're better off leaving them dead. I consider it a failure on a social design level. In most content, around the worst a person can contribute is zero, because when they die, they can no longer contribute toward positive efforts, but they don't contribute negatively. In this content, them trying to participate makes your team possibly do worse, so you might as well leave them.
In other words, the MOM rezz is the PBAoE knockback of resurrection mechanics.
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I don't think it's awful, it's just different from the other trials. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
MOM's rezz system isn't technically broken.
It is, however, fundamentally awful. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
It IS retarded*. It isn't fun. It IS highly abusive of the developers for including it when they don't provide a reasonable alternative to the rez system in that trial.
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Use a wakie and a break free.
Be rezzed by another player.
Use a rez from one of your powersets.
Use a vet rez.
Take desdemonas rez.
Don't die in the first place.
I see plenty of options/alternatives.
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It is also the direct cause of the trial having a high failure rate, which I personally find unacceptable. * (retard) be delayed. |
Most likely you will fail because:
-People are dieing too much. People dieing means less dps, less buffs/debuffs, and wasted time recovering. People dieing too much is typically attributed from people not paying attention to the pink circles. Rebirth makes the Pink Circles significantly less lethal, checking to make sure your league has a couple of rebirths before the trial starts helps alot.
-Voids are not being pulled and killed properly.
-Aurora doesn't get healed. This can be completely avoided by making a quick check before the trial starts for a couple people that have rebirth.
-GM's aren't pulled killed properly next to Tilman and/or there is insufficient mezzing. This can be averted before the trial begins by making sure there is a couple of people that can control and that people with knockback are informed not to use such powers on the GMs.
-Insufficient mez protection on the last 2 stages. 2 Clarions is all this trial needs. It's a far cry from the 4-7 clarions required for UGT. Making sure there is at least 2 clarions before the trial starts makes this a non issue.
-Insufficient level shifts, meaning less dps, more death, and less incarnate powers. Requiring at least +1 is an easy work around. If you feel there isn't enough level shifts to complete MoM then run a different trial.
-Poor Leadership.
All of the above can be worked around to make sure you won't run into those issues. The rez system in MoM can make the above more pressuring, but it is not the direct cause of the [supposedly] high fail rate on MoM. At best the rez system in MoM is an easy scapegoat for why you're really failing.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I don't think it's awful, it's just different from the other trials.
Reasonable ways to rez: Use a wakie and a break free. Be rezzed by another player. Use a rez from one of your powersets. Use a vet rez. Take desdemonas rez. Don't die in the first place. I see plenty of options/alternatives. No. The high failure rate (which isn't as high as you make it out to be) isn't caused by the rez system, it's caused by why people are dieing in the first place or not following directions. If people are dieing SO MUCH that the number of rezzes causes the trial to fail, you would have probably failed anyways. I've only seen a MoM fail ONCE because of people overusing desdemona's rezzes (which can also be attributed to people not following directions). Malaise was at ~5% when the timer hit 0, if people had used less rezzes we would have had plenty of time. Most likely you will fail because: -People are dieing too much. People dieing means less dps, less buffs/debuffs, and wasted time recovering. People dieing too much is typically attributed from people not paying attention to the pink circles. Rebirth makes the Pink Circles significantly less lethal, checking to make sure your league has a couple of rebirths before the trial starts helps alot. -Voids are not being pulled and killed properly. -Aurora doesn't get healed. This can be completely avoided by making a quick check before the trial starts for a couple people that have rebirth. -GM's aren't pulled killed properly next to Tilman and/or there is insufficient mezzing. This can be averted before the trial begins by making sure there is a couple of people that can control and that people with knockback are informed not to use such powers on the GMs. -Insufficient mez protection on the last 2 stages. 2 Clarions is all this trial needs. It's a far cry from the 4-7 clarions required for UGT. Making sure there is at least 2 clarions before the trial starts makes this a non issue. -Insufficient level shifts, meaning less dps, more death, and less incarnate powers. Requiring at least +1 is an easy work around. If you feel there isn't enough level shifts to complete MoM then run a different trial. -Poor Leadership. All of the above can be worked around to make sure you won't run into those issues. The rez system in MoM can make the above more pressuring, but it is not the direct cause of the [supposedly] high fail rate on MoM. At best the rez system in MoM is an easy scapegoat for why you're really failing. |
Cheers. That horrendous, exact, shopping list of 'must-haves' has convinced me that the MoM is an awful thing. Wether or not it's broken or not is irrelevAnt to me.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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The challenges HAVE to ramp up eventually. We cant have every trial be as linear as Lamb/BAF. I really don't even run those 2 anymore because they've been repeated so many times that everyone can defeat them easily. Id rather the challenge of new gimmicks the the old hack and slash. I don't see the problem with doing a handful of trials prior to a MoM being that difficult to do since the storyline dictates that every other trial happens BEFORE MoM.
Even if you don't use Mender Ramiels story arc. After a lamb/BAF you should have alpha unlocked. Then do a keyes for threads/components(changes to keyes grant a higher chance for a rare/VR component). Then if you choose to try a UG, you will likely unlock multiple incarnate slots.
SO excluding TPN and Mender Ramiels arc, and any WTf Drops or any none incarnate trial drops. You should Minimum have 3 incarnate slots unlocked at least 2 at tier 2. and thats if you don't get any rare drop(it happens). On top of that for completing UG your Guaranteed a rare or VR.
If there's a trial you don't like to run(most likely UG) then substitute it with another trial(repeat it). Or alternatively, if you cant get that Rare drop, run the WTF, and the 2 additional TF drops you require. You might get lucky and not even have to run one of those TFs via incarnate shards.
So please don't say MoM is too difficult, because it's not. Its designed for a higher lvl of incarnate. The devs have made some effort to co-ordinate a path to follow in order to qualify for these Higher level incarnate trials.
What would happen when we are +4? are we just going to brainlessly beat down Baf/Lamb? I hope not I hope to fight a worthy challenge. I'm actually quite disgusted at how easy keyes is now. I refer to it as "Baby Keyes".
I'm not trying to be "Elitist" im trying to express my point. Baf/Lamb have lvl 54 AVs. If a lvl 50 decides to participate his/her lvl is 4 lvls lower then the trial. As for MoM and TPN The AVs are scaled up by 2 lvls... so ideally so should the participants.
Its important that lower lvl incarnates should have the chance to receive drops. But the devs must also pave the way for future incarnate trial and powers. While still keeping challenging
@Black Tabby, @Black Tabby2
S.H.A.R.P, Order of the Champion Member
Champion Server, 1402 Badges (recorded July 18th 2012)
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This has been proven not to work during the Penelope phase. That is what I've been trying to say.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Reasonable ways to rez:
Use a wakie and a break free. |
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Use a rez from one of your powersets.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Most likely you will fail because:
-People are dieing too much. People dieing means less dps, less buffs/debuffs, and wasted time recovering. People dieing too much is typically attributed from people not paying attention to the pink circles. Rebirth makes the Pink Circles significantly less lethal, checking to make sure your league has a couple of rebirths before the trial starts helps alot. |
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
-Voids are not being pulled and killed properly.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
-Aurora doesn't get healed. This can be completely avoided by making a quick check before the trial starts for a couple people that have rebirth.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
-GM's aren't pulled killed properly next to Tilman and/or there is insufficient mezzing. This can be averted before the trial begins by making sure there is a couple of people that can control and that people with knockback are informed not to use such powers on the GMs.
-Insufficient mez protection on the last 2 stages. 2 Clarions is all this trial needs. It's a far cry from the 4-7 clarions required for UGT. Making sure there is at least 2 clarions before the trial starts makes this a non issue. -Insufficient level shifts, meaning less dps, more death, and less incarnate powers. Requiring at least +1 is an easy work around. If you feel there isn't enough level shifts to complete MoM then run a different trial. |
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
All of the above can be worked around to make sure you won't run into those issues. The rez system in MoM can make the above more pressuring, but it is not the direct cause of the [supposedly] high fail rate on MoM. At best the rez system in MoM is an easy scapegoat for why you're really failing.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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In my experience with Keyes, saying that it has a higher chance of rares/very rares is an outright lie. Since that supposed change in November, I've received 12 commons, 8 uncommons, 6 rares, 5 very rares from Keyes. From my perspective, it is still heavily weighted to commons.
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Originally Posted by BlackTabby
Then do a keyes for threads/components(changes to keyes grant a higher chance for a rare/VR component).
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Huh, weird. I always thought that meant higher percentage chance of getting a rare/very rare verses the normal rare/very rare drop rate instead of higher than common/uncoomon drop rate. Thought that was always the more common meaning.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
In my experience with Keyes, saying that it has a higher chance of rares/very rares is an outright lie. Since that supposed change in November, I've received 12 commons, 8 uncommons, 6 rares, 5 very rares from Keyes. From my perspective, it is still heavily weighted to commons.
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i.e., (not real percentages just made up for example purposes). if the chance was originally
common 50%, uncommon 35%, rare 10%, very rare 5%
Then the new percent would be
common 40%, uncommon 30%, rare 20%, very rare 10%
So commons would still be the highest number of drops, but rares and very rares would happen more frequently than before.
Shrug. Don't run trials enough now to know for sure either way.
Miles Vorkosigan: "Excuse us, please."
Lord Vormurtos: "Why not? Everyone else has. It seems if you are Vorkosigan enough, you can even get away with murder."
Miles Vorkosigan: "So if you truly believe that, why are you standing in my way?"
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If you're using a wakie outside of the bubble, you have a good chance at dieing, that's why you should use one inside the bubble (and you should have died in the area where the void bubbles are or will be, otherwise it's your own fault for being in the wrong place).|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
This has been proven not to work during the Penelope phase. That is what I've been trying to say.
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| And they are not a factor in the main area of failure. |
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| This shouldn't be a factor as to whether an awaken actually works. |
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| Graphics check again. There is no distinction between the area where Aurora is and where the AV fight is. |
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| Requiring everything including the kitchen sink for a trial that maxes out at 16 players is unreasonable. |
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| The rez system in MoM is a highly abusive game mechanic that doesn't have a place in any game, much less this one. |
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It's not an outright lie, you just don't understand the change or RNG.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
In my experience with Keyes, saying that it has a higher chance of rares/very rares is an outright lie. Since that supposed change in November, I've received 12 commons, 8 uncommons, 6 rares, 5 very rares from Keyes. From my perspective, it is still heavily weighted to commons.
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The change increased the chance that you would receive a rare or very rare on keyes. Never did it say you would receive more rares and very rares than commons and uncommons while doing keyes.
And I do notice I've gotten more rares/very rares post patch from keyes.
Edit: Sango Sumeragi gets it.
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I don't know, man. I think you had to have lead about 25%* of the BAFs I've ever been on. |
Originally Posted by Sango_Sumeragi
Don't run trials enough now to know for sure either way.
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* I have no idea what the real percentage is. It just seems like a lot.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
States TF - Broken because you NEED a tank/healer in most cases.
Lady Grey TF - Broken because you need at least somebody who can hold the mitos.
Hollows Trial - Broken because you need 8 people on it, most cases involve you having a person who can recall friend.
Sewers Trial - Broken because it requires teammates to time their attacks together to defeat the pylons.
MORuns - Broken because you most teams only allow players they know.
Now that i've got that out of the way with some VERY simple and quick examples [i can name so many more], lets move onto the trials themselves.
Keyes - broken because you need a tank with high energy resis.
Lam - broken because if you dont get enough of the temps in stage 2 then its very hard to complete it.
Underground - broken because it requires some players to have a clarion.
TPN - broken because of the auto kill feature such as marked for death.
MoM - broken because of the 15 second death penalty.
DD - broken because of the death penalty that buffs MoD.
Now can the people who are always complaining about trials see why people roll their eyes at them? [not you obviously cpt, teamed with you and know that your one of the few who see good/bad in trials].
There are so many examples of tasks ingame that requires a certain AT, a certain powerset, a certain standard of player to complete it already. When was the last time you saw a thread complaining that the STF is too hard because of the insame damage LR does?
When was the last time you saw a thread saying that the Hollows trial should have its requirements lowered or the igneous guarding the pillars removed?
When was the last time you saw a thread saying the LGTF was just stupid because it gave no warning beforehand that you NEED a certain AT/power than can be of use against the hami?
This is a bit of a rant post but its because while yes your obviously welcome to all your opinions, but when people try and show that X isnt as bad as you might feel, those people get instantly shot down with "well it is that bad because i say so".
Earlier in the thread a poster shoots down the DD trial while in the same post saying he's never tried it . . . .
People like myself get fed up of "itrials are broken" posts because while a very small minority will post actual good feedback on how to improve them, majority are just posting anti-trial posts for the sake of it now it seems 
If those anti-trialers are so against itrials but want to actually improve them, then make a seperate thread for each trial where people can actually throw out ideas on what needs to be buffed/nerfed.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
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Originally Posted by Sango_Sumeragi
Huh, weird. I always thought that meant higher percentage chance of getting a rare/very rare verses the normal rare/very rare drop rate instead of higher than common/uncoomon drop rate. Thought that was always the more common meaning.
i.e., (not real percentages just made up for example purposes). if the chance was originally common 50%, uncommon 35%, rare 10%, very rare 5% Then the new percent would be common 40%, uncommon 30%, rare 20%, very rare 10% So commons would still be the highest number of drops, but rares and very rares would happen more frequently than before. Shrug. Don't run trials enough now to know for sure either way. |
Thats the way i see it too, just an increase percentage in getting a rare/v.rare, doesnt mean you'll get them a lot but it does mean you'll get them more than often and Snow Globes results proove that indeed while still less than the others, the numbers are higher than what they'ld be in say a baf/lam.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Yeah, I also always took it to mean that your odds of getting a Rare/VR in Keyes is higher than in the trials that came before it: BAF and Lambda.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I've already done a few trials on Virtue, and plan to move some of my incarnate characters off of Triumph (to make room for new characters) to do so.
However my experience with Virtue showed me that MoM isn't being run a lot even THERE, when compared with other trials.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters