Cracked.com and sexist costuming in comics

Exactly! Style first! Comics are about being pleasing to the eye! Seeing a bunch of heroes and villains fighting it out in business suits is not my idea of fun art.

That only last the first month or so. Later on you'll have read everything that interests you and you'll be ok. I speak from experience and I check the site almost everyday now to keep up!

This reads to me as...
"I prefer real sexism to perceived sexism"

At this point it would be worth reviewing the definition of sexism. You cannot argue that when comic book artists hypersexualize *all* characters that its only sexist towards women because only they care enough to be insulted. Oversexualizing both male and female appearance isn't specifically targeting women for discrimination and therefore by definition cannot be sexist. On the other hand, saying women are less able to tolerate that *is* specifically targeting women.

Which is not to say that there isn't sexism in comic books and comic book art in general. Just that the thesis that its obviously prejudiced against women *because* men don't care is illogical. It is ironically a sexist position.

It is obviously true that female characters are more *overtly* sexualized in many ways, but that would be a matter of degree. It would undermine the entire thought process to declare that the less overt sexualization of male characters is actually *also* sexist towards women because men like it. It is so illogically undermining that it damages the point equally so if the statement itself is either true or false.

It doesn't hurt to also point out that most comic readers are by the very nature of their environment unable to distinguish when something is truly being sexualized, over-sexualized, or them just being prudish since we live in a puritanical society where sex is considered more abhorrent to show than rampant violence.

Go read 'Tec #1 & 2 and Catwoman #1 & 2. There are hyper violent scenes in there with tons of gore. Yet most instead of going "wtf are we showing our kids" when they see a guy bite a chunk of another guys neck out they only focus on the fact that Catwoman sexes it up with the Bat... And likewise they say nothing when in 'Tec #2 a guy strips his shirt off to climb an indoor mountain thing. Out of all the **** in those 4 comics, you know what concerns people the most? Batman and Catwoman making love... That to me screams a messed up culture.

All this is true. Though I wouldn't have thought 'women are less able to tolerate it', as it's false. It's also not what I got from the article. Rather, I think the perceived damage comes from the possibility that these oversexualized images may influence a man's image of women. Hence 'objectifying', 'demeaning', 'man's power fantasy'. A man influenced by these sources who treats women in a certain way as a result of this influence *is* being sexist.

I think you're right and the definition does need to be revisted more often - people (including me) associate it with being similar to racism: a person who writes racist propaganda is a racist, a person who reads it might not be, a person who is influenced by it is.

When I was growing up and collecting comics books both my sister and mother found the way women were drawn in comics as 'childish' and 'silly' over 'insulting', so I personally have always assumed that's the default position of most women (as perception is heavily influenced by familiarity). As a result I, too, consider the way women are drawn in comics to be 'silly' over 'sexy'. It's the way they're often written or the situations they're often subjected to that I consider 'sexist'.

At this point, I can all but guarantee that in just a few paragraphs you'e put more thought into said thesis than the guy who parroted it for his article (it's not his thesis - writers and stand up comedians have been joking about it for years).

You know what is really off about it?

How to phrase...

Before the retcon, Bruce Wayne had pretty much said outright and admitted to himself that Selina Kyle was the love of his life. Taking his mask off in front of her was this amazingly important ordeal (unlike the new JL where Bruce is like "O HAI GREEN LANTERN IM BRUCE WAYNE WANNA HANG OUT SUMTIME?").

The current Catwoman takes place, emotionally, before this admission. But, we know that Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle are fated lovers and what not; hell, odds are Bruce Wayne will never love anyone after Selina (hello, Batman Beyond). So, people are whining about the portrayal of Catwoman and Batman sleeping together are prett much lambasting all romance stories. What's next, whining over Romeo and Juliet?

Jeez, meanwhile, Voodoo is hyper-sexual and cutting people's limbs off and everyone is like "BUT CATWOMAN WAS TEH NUDEZ"


/end rant


Edit: look, you want to complain about Grace Choi? Maybe Cheshire (especially her!), fine, i can understand this (dont agree, but i can understand). But don't give me this crap. And Hal Jordan will wait til he's married to Carol before sleeping with her again, right? Tsch.


/end more rant.

When you should of been asking them, "What do you think of the males being drawn?"

That aside, true story here, if they drew comics to be like real life, the comics wouldn't be selling as much as they do now.

For one it's hard enough to get people to overlook comics as anything but for children. It's no different than cartoons. Nevermind that when cartoons came out, adults watched them all the time.

A good experiement, make a superhero book where the heroes and villains in it are drawn as out of shape and patrolling the streets. See how well it sells

As Tony Daniel said when ask why you don't see more ugly characters in comics "They're harder to draw."

And that really hits at the heart of it which is that people really don't know what "sexism" means. They take it to mean something about treating women like sex dolls... which it's not. It can include that, but that can also be perfectly alright. I find Batwoman to be extremely sexist yet every time I point out how much the character that are in that comic and that are not that should be are treated to make women in such a way that is negative towards both men and women I get yelled at because there are key things that she is or does not do... for example she wears a pretty full costume, she's a lesbian, she fights crime, she's been in the military... all of that is great and was established by other writers and artists. The comic that is out now is sexist garbage. It's removed all men for the most part, devalued every female charactered from where they should have been, every issue the characters are stripping, and you could continue on, (it also has tons of gore in it) but because it's not overtly showing flesh it's considered a great role model for women... It seems to me that these people have lost their minds and their memories...

On the other hand you have Voodoo, Cat Woman, Starfire, and Power Girl who show flesh, but at the same time they are very powerful and in charge of what and who they are. They show flesh because they want to. They have sex cuz they want to and or are in love...They stand on equal ground with their male counter-parts. They also, funny enough, don't have gore, in their books.

This is part of why I've redefined what i consider porn in my vernacular... which is that Porn is stuff that is used for shock and/or don't add anything to the character, story, or whatever i'm looking at. So nudity to me isn't pornographic, however Angelina Jolie in the shower in Tomb Raider is. Likewise Cat Woman getting it on with Batman isn't, but all those scenes where Batwoman and Flamebird are stripping are.

Yes, I almost thought about explaining that context and costumes were two different things . . but I had to rush off to work.

My uncle was a colorist, artist and editor for DC. He was the first person that first joked with me about the fact that most of his co-workers having a lack of knowledge about a real woman's body (he and his partner have been together 25 years, he counted himself among that group). So, I just can't see any of these images as sexist. . . . they're just drawings with exaggerated proportions to me.

Do you perchance happen to remember the Marvel Swimsuit Issues?

Ya...

On the one hand, you have Mary Jane Watson in a spiderweb one piece.
On the other, you have Wolverine wearing cutoff jean shorts.

It was both mind numbing and mind destroying.

Well, today's artist have the Internet to fill them in on such things, so, lack of firsthand experience is no excuse anymore.

As a professional artist of over 10 years myself, I can vouch for one thing...we draw what we or our clients like period. Most often we draw them sexy because the client wants it this way, even the females, or we are given free reign and we like to draw sexy because...um...we're dudes...and sexy keeps us...well...interested, inspired, and internet references we find are usually pretty sexed up.

A recent example comes to mind. I was commissioned to draw a 40's style pinup of the female lead singer of a band to be used for promotionals. I was given free reign at first, so I looked for references from other pinup artists, and by their example drew the early drafts very sexy. She loved it, however, she was vetoed by the male members of the band as they felt it would give the wrong impression of the group. I then came up with a compromise of a leggy pose with fairly-conservative attire. They all dug the result.

If nothing else, that certainly explains the new art direction.

The scene where Angeline Jolie was showering had a lot to do with fanfare but wasn't exactly non-story related. She was dirty, it showed how hygienic her character is while pleasing both female and male viewers.

As for batworman and flamebird, well, same applies to not really being pornographic but rather a fun way to show how even during their halt of crime they find time to do something they enjoy. It's sexy, provocative, and does please a number of fans. However, it also shows that they don't have to take everything serious all the time, girls indeed do have more fun, and shows a side of their characters that set them apart form the normal humdrum of constant vigilance. Even good girls need to have a bad streak, or a fun night where they do what they want. With the public eye not on them maybe they're not the '' goody goody'' types many have come to believe they were.

And I'm the ridiculous one...

So all we need to do is encourage more comic book artists to google search women's bodies, and problem solved.

Nope. They still have their own styles. And personally, I hope they never go the realistic route. I've read comics where the artist went the realistic body route, and every single one of them I considered some of the worst art ever.

Well, your words not mine. I mean I didn't want to state the obvious but you know...

Your opinion of what I wrote is fine, I mean it's identifiable to yourself and those who agree, while some also see my point. It's just what it is.

Dunno who's joking and who isn't, but I've read interviews from various artists where they've mentioned going to strip clubs for "research."

expensive research

Research that is horrible for learning art. Life art teachers will tell you that you should use ugly/old/overweight models because more lines and creases and such are better to learn from.

Because North American comic book art is so realistic, right? Perennial cover artists like, say, Adam Hughes, Ed Benes, Paul Renaud and J Scott Campbell must be so popular because of all the ugly/old/overweight female characters they always draw.