Cracked.com and sexist costuming in comics
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Agonus,
Posted on: 2012-01-31 11:41 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Some people like the art. |
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Few people set out specifically to create a 'power fantasy' as a character. That's not a concept (with the exception of several Image characters and, as you mentioned, Captain Marvel - though that's more wish fulfillment than power fantasy.)
The fantasy is in the execution, not the concept. Little kids didn't used to dress up like Superman to pretend to be protected by him: They did it to pretend to be him. The fantasy is in the idea that anyone could have been selected to be a Lantern. The fantasy is with the idea that despite how much of a 'loser' Peter Parker has been made out to be he ended up (for 20 years anyways) with a supermodel wife. Regardless, the broad topic at hand is the oversexed portrayal of both genders in comics. That has nothing to do with the origin of the characters or the background of the characters and everything to do with the portrayal of the characters, so we should stick to your first assertion: It's all because of bad art. Who is a good modern artist? What makes them good? How do they avoid the 'bad art' pitfall? How are their men and women portrayed? |
Really, whether or not you like the art is going to be a judgement call. Personally, I hate reading comics where the artist is the type to have the realistic approach. I've yet to see one with that style that made me think "Oh yeah! The art is great!"
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When Namor is put into Patrick Fillion style poses he will be properly objectified. He's just under dressed when he isn't channeling Black Adam.
First, Princess Jasmine is not dressed for combat or warfare. If she were she'd be dressed like any of the women here--basically like a Turkish janissary or an Egyptian mamluk. Instead Jasmine is dressed for lounging around in the chambers of purdah or something similar. One could question that entire movie in terms accurate portrayal of female nobility in Arab kingdoms. So I discount that example.
But never mind, the kids, including all the girls, love it.
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And yet here we all are blathering about it. What does that say about us? It's notable that you cite the whole Starfire debacle. That's a prime example of the problem. The Starfire embarrassment also points out that superhero comics really aren't just for young children anymore--at least that's pretty clear how they're being marketed now. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Face it. American comics are considered for kids and usually more specifically little boys.
[...] The ones doing the complaining are generally within certain groups of people who are just looking for reasons to call attention to whatever cause they're on about. |
Anyway, I know this is something that will never going to be solved here. Personally I think there is a problem and I'm a little tired of the apologists who say there isn't.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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Built like him, maybe: his proportions aren't too out of whack. But the article writer goes on to say that *if* you were built like that, you would go out of your way to dress like the two costumes shown, metallic speedos and Liberace's version of Dracula, because no amount of silly is too much to show off your perfect body. Every man's dream is not just to be built like Namor, its to be a color blind Venice Beach exhibitionist.
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Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Sure it is. Absolutely absurd.
But... no matter how sexualized or ludicrous Namor's costumes are we DO all know all men would jump at the chance to be built like him.  |
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Now that's generalizing. We could have the perfect body easily if that's all we wanted, it's not that hard to get my fat butt to the gym. We want more than that. I once saw a gal pal of mine look at this guy in this club she thought was hot, the look in her eyes the way she crossed her legs and bit her lip. My dream was always that someone look at me that way, unfortunately I know it takes more than getting fit to have that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Built like him, maybe: his proportions aren't too out of whack. But the article writer goes on to say that *if* you were built like that, you would go out of your way to dress like the two costumes shown, metallic speedos and Liberace's version of Dracula, because no amount of silly is too much to show off your perfect body. Every man's dream is not just to be built like Namor, its to be a color blind Venice Beach exhibitionist.
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Bit of a trend in this thread, that. "All men would do this!" "No woman would do that!" etc, etc.
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Originally Posted by Innovator
Now that's generalizing...
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Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.
Let's just ignore that Voodoo, at least in issue #2 and 3, wears a T-shirt and jeans... and in issue #1 which everyone calls sexist the bra and panties were tasteful and made sense..
Oh also Lina Inverse ^.^ that as far as I know she never appears in any fan service clothes.
Of course in Mister Terrific (god what a horrible book) you have Power Girl in Jersey and nothing else which I've seen quite a few women do just to lounge around... yet I'm pretty sure people would say that's sexist v.v
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I didn't say comics were for little kids. Just that many people think they are.|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
First, Princess Jasmine is not dressed for combat or warfare. If she were she'd be dressed like any of the women here--basically like a Turkish janissary or an Egyptian mamluk. Instead Jasmine is dressed for lounging around in the chambers of purdah or something similar. One could question that entire movie in terms accurate portrayal of female nobility in Arab kingdoms. So I discount that example.
But never mind, the kids, including all the girls, love it. And yet here we all are blathering about it. What does that say about us? It's notable that you cite the whole Starfire debacle. That's a prime example of the problem. The Starfire embarrassment also points out that superhero comics really aren't just for young children anymore--at least that's pretty clear how they're being marketed now. Anyway, I know this is something that will never going to be solved here. Personally I think there is a problem and I'm a little tired of the apologists who say there isn't. |
Myself, I don't find a problem with comics outfits, or the figures (generally speaking, I don't claim to like all art styles), as what some people are asking for is not generally visually appeal or doesn't fall into the realm of rulle of cool.
Heroes/Villains fighting it out in color spandex is generally better than everyone in a business suit.
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He stated his argument rather badly, but the basic premise is correct. I did read the entire article, and I didn't see that particular point as undermining his argument.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you read the article, you've seen it brought up in another context: the context of how objectifying and sexualizing both male and female characters denigrates women and glorifies men, because all men like to be objectified in exactly that way.
The problem isn't the male gaze idea. The problem is the article writer is attempting to *prove* that comic book costumes exhibit the male gaze phenomenon by explicitly stating without any evidence a rather extreme position: that no matter how sexualized or ludicrous Namor's costumes are, well, we all know all men would jump at the chance to look like Namor. Do we all know that? Isn't that just as absurd as saying all women deep down inside want to look like Power Girl, even if they won't admit it? |
The point was, simply that comic books are marketed toward boys and men. Characters are generally meant to fulfill boy's and men's fantasies. Yes, it's ludicrous to suggest that men would dress in speedos if they had Namor's body, but it doesn't tear his entire point down.
It's also not possible, in the larger social context, for sexism against men to have the same weight or meaning as sexism against women, because largely, women are still not treated as fully equal. You don't have multiple overlapping industries (media) presenting hypersexualized images of men as a necessity to be valued, loved, etc.
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When I google "Disney princesses feminist critique" I get 85,700 results, which means it does get some flak. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
The ones doing the complaining are generally within certain groups of people who are just looking for reasons to call attention to whatever cause they're on about.
Look at that outfit! Not sensible at all for fighting against an evil wizard! And it shows off her belly. And her figure is totally exagerrated! She basically has a female comic book hero body (okay the breasts aren't Ds-DDs). Yet doesn't get nearly the flak (if any. I havent heard any, but I'm sure someone has complained) and look, little girls like it. |
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It's not what superheroes are dressed in. It's not that comics are sexist (this doesnt mean there aren't sexist people in the industry). It comes down to the opinions of people and imparting those opinions on others. Notice how they can say comics are sexist, this is the reason women don't read them, but women will enjoy the superhero movies? Yeah.
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One thing about comic books versus movies as well is the difference between going to a movie theater and to a comic book shop. The latter is much more likely to present a hostile environment to women (at least in my experience, and I've been buying stuff at comic shops since the 1970s). I've never run into the same degree of condescension or hostility in movie theaters no matter which movie I am there to watch as I have in comic book shops. The latter I dealt with by finding shops that didn't have that environment.
The article oversimplifies several points, and I wouldn't use it as a central critique of comic book media.
As far as film goes, this site is interesting:
http://bechdeltest.com/
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I have thought of at least four counterexamples to that: Reservoir Dogs, The Blues Brothers, The Matrix and the first MIB. Granted they aren't superhero movies but at least the last is based on a comic book and the last three definitely have a superhero like feel to them. People fighting in business suits can be quite cool!
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Heroes/Villains fighting it out in color spandex is generally better than everyone in a business suit.
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"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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Now see. Look at that. Resident Evil movies and Underworld make the grade according to that test.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
When I google "Disney princesses feminist critique" I get 85,700 results, which means it does get some flak.
Is your argument that women can't enjoy sexist media? If I couldn't enjoy sexist media, there would be precious little media for me to enjoy at all. So the sexism is, as the comic strip linked earlier said, background radiation. It's everywhere. One thing about comic books versus movies as well is the difference between going to a movie theater and to a comic book shop. The latter is much more likely to present a hostile environment to women (at least in my experience, and I've been buying stuff at comic shops since the 1970s). I've never run into the same degree of condescension or hostility in movie theaters no matter which movie I am there to watch as I have in comic book shops. The latter I dealt with by finding shops that didn't have that environment. The article oversimplifies several points, and I wouldn't use it as a central critique of comic book media. As far as film goes, this site is interesting: http://bechdeltest.com/ |
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Did I not say "generally better"?|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
I have thought of at least four counterexamples to that: Reservoir Dogs, The Blues Brothers, The Matrix and the first MIB. Granted they aren't superhero movies but at least the last is based on a comic book and the last three definitely have a superhero like feel to them. People fighting in business suits can be quite cool!
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I did!
There are of course exceptions. Though I'm not sure I'd say Blues Brothers has a superhero feel to it myself.
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So does a lot of porn.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Now see. Look at that. Resident Evil movies and Underworld make the grade according to that test.
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So the test is a failure at what it's meant to accomplish?
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Originally Posted by Durakken
So does a lot of porn.
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The movie is full of all kinds of magic realism but one only has to watch the huge cop car chase at the end of the movie to see that it completely departs from reality as much as the most fantastic superhero flick. And besides Jake and Elwood beat down a lot of Nazi's just like Capt. America and they are fighting for a good cause! And come on! Cab Calloway!|
Originally Posted by BrandX
There are of course exceptions. Though I'm not sure I'd say Blues Brothers has a superhero feel to it myself.
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Personally I think business suits are a lot more flattering yet also modest to a person than spandex. Think of the bleeding cool in 6 String Samurai or James Bond?!
Additionally, let's remember that the modern business suit and tuxedos (Worn by G Men and Women everywhere.) trace their satorial lineage all the way back to the officer uniforms of Napoleon's army and the British Regency period.
Anyway, I'm taking us way off the subject. I'll quit this line of thought here.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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While I mostly agree with the positions you've taken here, I think the Bechdel Test, while funny and telling in its day really isn't adequate anymore. Like the Turing Test, it's not really sufficient alone to prove positive, heroic female role models.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
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"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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It was never intended to do that. It was intended to prove the opposite, that even the most trivial of standards for female roles was surprisingly difficult to meet.
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Originally Posted by synthozoic
While I mostly agree with the positions you've taken here, I think the Bechdel Test, while funny and telling in its day really isn't adequate anymore. Like the Turing Test, it's not really sufficient alone to prove positive, heroic female role models.
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It undermines his point because unless you already agree with him anyway, saying in effect that all male objectification is irrelevant means you can't disprove his point: he's saying he's going to ignore all evidence which doesn't support his point. Which then makes all the examples in favor of his point fundamentally worthless.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
He stated his argument rather badly, but the basic premise is correct. I did read the entire article, and I didn't see that particular point as undermining his argument.
The point was, simply that comic books are marketed toward boys and men. Characters are generally meant to fulfill boy's and men's fantasies. Yes, it's ludicrous to suggest that men would dress in speedos if they had Namor's body, but it doesn't tear his entire point down. It's also not possible, in the larger social context, for sexism against men to have the same weight or meaning as sexism against women, because largely, women are still not treated as fully equal. You don't have multiple overlapping industries (media) presenting hypersexualized images of men as a necessity to be valued, loved, etc. |
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Point taken. But obviously even if these weak criteria are so difficult to meet, we may as well make the criteria as exacting as is reasonable just to make certain the test remains valuable as trends change in film. For example, we could extend the Bechdel Test to include a few more criteria:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It was never intended to do that. It was intended to prove the opposite, that even the most trivial of standards for female roles was surprisingly difficult to meet.
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- Can't be pornography.
- Can't feature Beckinsale in blue contacts or blue lighting.
- ??
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
To actually put in my thoughts on this, I realize it's not a matter of sexism to me, but how ridiculous characters can look.
Starfire's costume (the actual costume, not just her being nude) strikes me as silly and ridiculous.
Sue Reed's outfit is also ridiculous because it even goes so far as to defy physics to achieve it's appearance.
Psylocke and Wonder Woman's Star Sapphire Lantern Corps costumes are also pushing it.
And yes, personally, even as a guy, I think Namor looks like an idiot running around in a shiny, green-scale speedo. And really, even if I had that build I would not dress like that, not even at the beach, and quite frankly, were Namor not the sort of character who casually murders people who insult him, I'd laugh in his face about his fashion choice.
Now on another note, in general I tend to find a lot of super hero costumes a bit on the silly side, but they manage to actually grow on me purely through nostalgia and the grandfather clause.
Wonder Woman and Power Girl's default outfits? Yes, I've grown accustomed to them. Superman's* costumes? The silly underwear thing is so damn iconic to him that omitting it would feel like your just making a whole new character. Heck, even when it was vacuum sealed to lovingly cup each breast, I liked Sue Reed's old Fantastic Four costume just because that held an iconic appearance for me, even if it looked nothing like what you would explore space in.
But really, I'm a poor judge of these things because I seem to HATE the spandex-clad hero concept as a generality. Sure I have room to love someone else's spandex costumes or make plenty of exceptions, but I noticed this some time back when I looked at my character roster and realized the number of characters I had clad in tights was zero.
In a super hero story I've imagined in my mind, none of the heroes or villains wear tights. Not one.
Whenever I imagine how i would redesign a costume for any character, tights are likely the first thing to go.
So really, this is all a subjective thing for me, and for others too. I think for now we just need to take in a deep breath and say 'live and let live'. If you wanna complain about the comic book industry, feel free to speak when you're asked (like here, actually) but otherwise the comic book industry's failing profits speak well enough to the publishers themselves as they scramble with retcons and costume redesigns.
*I leave out Batman because lately the guy's been through more costume iterations than the people in the "Show off your best Costume/Costume redesign" threads. Really, the same could be said for about every Batman character.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Actually, the way that Kirby drew them, the unstable molecule suits of the Fantastic Four were very tame by today's standards. They were slightly baggy and bunching up like real tights made of cotton instead of spandex, let alone the insane and unrealistic body painting or vacuum sealing to the contours of their bodies of today's uniforms (Please excuse the Submariner in his mighty swim trunks!):|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
Heck, even when it was vacuum sealed to lovingly cup each breast, I liked Sue Reed's old Fantastic Four costume just because that held an iconic appearance for me, even if it looked nothing like what you would explore space in.
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I really wouldn't mind a return to this. Kirby drew head gear that any comic artist of today could learn from. The only thing Sue lacks is pockets. Maybe I just can't see them in all the folds.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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Well I more mean in some of the later renditions of the tights outfit where they did get boob molds.|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
Actually, the way that Kirby drew them, the unstable molecule suits of the Fantastic Four were very tame by today's standards. They were slightly baggy and bunching up like real tights made of cotton instead of spandex, let alone the insane and unrealistic body painting or vacuum sealing to the contours of their bodies of today's uniforms.
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But yeah, that, I honestly like, meanwhile, Namor's scaly manties still get a thumbs down from me.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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But as a silly aside, I just avoid this whole issue in the game by mostly building robots and weird looking aliens.
Face it. American comics are considered for kids and usually more specifically little boys.
It's no different than cartoons.
You can have the main character be a female, dressed in what all the detractors consider sensible clothing, and it wouldn't change that.
The ones doing the complaining are generally within certain groups of people who are just looking for reasons to call attention to whatever cause they're on about.
Look at that outfit! Not sensible at all for fighting against an evil wizard! And it shows off her belly. And her figure is totally exagerrated! She basically has a female comic book hero body (okay the breasts aren't Ds-DDs).
Yet doesn't get nearly the flak (if any. I havent heard any, but I'm sure someone has complained) and look, little girls like it.
It's not what superheroes are dressed in. It's not that comics are sexist (this doesnt mean there aren't sexist people in the industry). It comes down to the opinions of people and imparting those opinions on others.
Notice how they can say comics are sexist, this is the reason women don't read them, but women will enjoy the superhero movies?
Yeah.
Here's another image of not the typical body female (and I can only guess at what people consider typical) and fighting in an outfit that doesn't make sense for fighting in.
Of course, this is all about how women are drawn/dressed in such a medium. As for how they're portrayed in personality, that's a different subject.
*sigh* What did they do to Starfire?
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