The Walking Dead returns...
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-01-25 18:27 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I would imagine those who accidentally learned that anyone could rise as a zombie after death didn't last long enough to spread the word.
This isn't Romero's original with the nice TV and Radio reports telling people to burn the recently deceased (an idealized calm government response with responsible news organizations) and more like a sudden nationwide catastrophe where local/state/federal response is muddled with the media jumping on every rumor causing more panic than reducing it.
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Right I understand that "perfect news reports" were probably not strictly possible in the final weeks of civilization. But I'm still left with the nagging feeling that the very idea that ANYONE could come back as a zombie would have been so fundamentally sensational that a key nugget of info like that would manage to become fairly common amongst ANYONE left alive. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I would imagine those who accidentally learned that anyone could rise as a zombie after death didn't last long enough to spread the word.
This isn't Romero's original with the nice TV and Radio reports telling people to burn the recently deceased (an idealized calm government response with responsible news organizations) and more like a sudden nationwide catastrophe where local/state/federal response is muddled with the media jumping on every rumor causing more panic than reducing it. |
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As I recall, one of the basic premises is that the concept/genre of zombie apoc doesn't exist in the 'reality' of the story. Hence, no one really knows what to call them, knows any of the sub-culture memes, or has any previous basis of opinion or idea on the topic beyond what the last 4-6 weeks taught them. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Well I'll just put it this way: If I were to have to live through a Zombie Apocalypse I would probably do my best to understand as much about the zombies as possible. Who knows... that info just 'might' be useful to me.
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In additional, these are 'average janes/joes', for the most part, who never gave an iota of brain processing to how to survive a world ending situation, or that 'whatever bad is happening' was actually 'the end of everything we knew' until it had ended. They got through on luck and are now developing the mindset/skills you seem to assume they took into the events with them at the start.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
It's like the authors are assuming these people are artificially stupid or unobservant of things going on around them. Did no one commit suicide or have a heart attack while things were circling the drain?
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It is perfectly acceptable/logical that this group may be one of the ones 'slow on the uptake', as it were.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
But even if you don't agree with me on this then here's the real kicker: Dr. Jenner. Are we supposed to believe that he wouldn't have been able to tell that the virus = zombie-ism even if the victim hadn't been "attacked" by an active zombie? Surely he knew they were all infected after those blood tests, surely he knew people could reanimate even if there were no scratches or bites and surely (until we learn otherwise) we have to assume what he whispered to Rick was "We're all doomed to become zombies so that's why I'm going to kill myself." Why Rick hasn't spilled the beans on what Jenner whispered to him is probably the REAL mystery left to be told.
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a) didn't believe it, so kept it to himself or
b) believed and and kept it to himself or
c) kept to himself whatever else it may have been that Jenner told him
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually if we are to believe that Dr. Jenner told Rick the "big secret" about everyone reanimating after death then it makes perfect sense that he'd make sure he head-shoted those guys. On the other hand if we are to assume that he knows then you'd have to ask why he didn't quickly try to pop Shane in the head. Curiouser and curiouser...
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I think we are being forced to accept something along these lines. It just seems like their "slow on the uptake"-ness is a wee-bit too artificial and contrived to be plausible. Just how in the dark were ALL of these people to begin with? As I said before Rick had the excuse of being in a coma - what's everyone else's excuse for not having a clue? |
Originally Posted by Chyll
Of course, I agree completely that these things happened. And someone would have figured it out. That doesn't mean it happened, or was made clear, or broke through the general stunned 'what the heck is happening?!' filters of every individual group of survivors.
It is perfectly acceptable/logical that this group may be one of the ones 'slow on the uptake', as it were. |
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And therein is our difference in perspective. I think my, and others', posts have answered that question more than adequately for my Story-Logical Detector 2000(TM) to register a rating of "Acceptable". |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think we are being forced to accept something along these lines. It just seems like their "slow on the uptake"-ness is a wee-bit too artificial and contrived to be plausible. Just how in the dark were ALL of these people to begin with? As I said before Rick had the excuse of being in a coma - what's everyone else's excuse for not having a clue?
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People have been speculating that Shane was becoming a zombie even -before- he actually died. Based on how erratic and chaotic he was becoming in his last few hours it was possible that the virus was already working its magic on him due to his general mental instability. That could explain not only the mental flashes he was getting as he was dying but could also explain why he turned so fast. It could even go so far as to explain why he had a "death wish" with Rick - maybe the virus was unconsciously forcing him into a situation where he knew Rick would kill him so the virus could take over.|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
So... what exactly do you think it was we were seeing with those little flashes as Shane was lying there on the ground? Were those his "dying thoughts" or were they images flashing through his mind as the virus reactivated certain synapses in his brain like Jenner's MRI showed? And if they were the latter, what does that mean? Do the zombies posses some sort of rudimentary hive mind?
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Perhaps we'll find out is that the virus is always on the verge of taking over a body, even a living one. But the only thing that holds it back is the body still being alive. Perhaps how resistant a person is to the virus ultimately determines how long it takes for a person to flip once death occurs.
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A whole new line of thinking for me.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
People have been speculating that Shane was becoming a zombie even -before- he actually died. Based on how erratic and chaotic he was becoming in his last few hours it was possible that the virus was already working its magic on him due to his general mental instability. That could explain not only the mental flashes he was getting as he was dying but could also explain why he turned so fast. It could even go so far as to explain why he had a "death wish" with Rick - maybe the virus was unconsciously forcing him into a situation where he knew Rick would kill him so the virus could take over.
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I had actually been thinking those flashes were in Rick's head, and the stress of killing Shane had him thinking about walkers and their threat - perhaps thinking about Shane turning, etc.
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Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Rick wanted to be sure that Jenner was right. It's a hard truth to swallow, that nobody can escape becoming a zombie. He needed proof. Rick was sitting with Shane's corpse, waiting and ready to pop him in the head at the first sign of reanimation, when Carl distracted him.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually if we are to believe that Dr. Jenner told Rick the "big secret" about everyone reanimating after death then it makes perfect sense that he'd make sure he head-shoted those guys. On the other hand if we are to assume that he knows then you'd have to ask why he didn't quickly try to pop Shane in the head. Curiouser and curiouser...
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It was certainly hard to make out exactly what the show was trying to tell us with those brief images. I think based on the way the camera focused on Shane's dying face as it jumped back and forth to those chaotic images made me assume that was what was (literally) going on inside Shane's head.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
A whole new line of thinking for me.
I had actually been thinking those flashes were in Rick's head, and the stress of killing Shane had him thinking about walkers and their threat - perhaps thinking about Shane turning, etc. |
But I guess those images could have been in Rick's mind too, epecially if you buy into the "hive-mind" theory and/or the "everyone's infected" theory.
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That makes sense, and is probably a far better interpretation... it just hadn't been been what jumped into my mind (as it were |
Originally Posted by Lothic
It was certainly hard to make out exactly what the show was trying to tell us with those brief images. I think based on the way the camera focused on Shane's dying face as it jumped back and forth to those chaotic images made me assume that was what was (literally) going on inside Shane's head.
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) at the time.
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I wonder if it isn't just a matter of the writers not worrying about it because they don't think the viewers will put that much thought into it. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think we are being forced to accept something along these lines. It just seems like their "slow on the uptake"-ness is a wee-bit too artificial and contrived to be plausible. Just how in the dark were ALL of these people to begin with? As I said before Rick had the excuse of being in a coma - what's everyone else's excuse for not having a clue?
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And when it comes to average viewers, they're probably right. I know my sister likes the show, but if I tried to have a conversation with her about the pathology of the zombie virus, her eyes would glaze over quicker than a freshly dead walker.
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I don't think its too contrived. How many people have they had die of "natural" causes within the group? Everyone's been bitten and died from that. Then they also stumble across corpses inside vehicles that aren't zombified, like that guy Carl came across in that pickup, which would work to go against the theory that everyone's just waiting to be a walker. Plus, there's the fact that they are more concerned about where their next meal is or just basic survival to spend too much time wondering about where the zombies come from.
These are, after all, just regular people who've led quiet lives. For the most part anyways. Combine that with an overall news blackout and lack of info, they can be excused for not knowing the minutiae beyond, "Shoot 'em in the head. If yer bit, yer dead.".
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
I wonder if it isn't just a matter of the writers not worrying about it because they don't think the viewers will put that much thought into it.
And when it comes to average viewers, they're probably right. I know my sister likes the show, but if I tried to have a conversation with her about the pathology of the zombie virus, her eyes would glaze over quicker than a freshly dead walker. |
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Originally Posted by Dark One
I don't think its too contrived. How many people have they had die of "natural" causes within the group? Everyone's been bitten and died from that. Then they also stumble across corpses inside vehicles that aren't zombified, like that guy Carl came across in that pickup, which would work to go against the theory that everyone's just waiting to be a walker. Plus, there's the fact that they are more concerned about where their next meal is or just basic survival to spend too much time wondering about where the zombies come from.
These are, after all, just regular people who've led quiet lives. For the most part anyways. Combine that with an overall news blackout and lack of info, they can be excused for not knowing the minutiae beyond, "Shoot 'em in the head. If yer bit, yer dead.". |
All I'm asking people here to think about is that there was a period of roughly 4 to 6 weeks, while Rick was in coma, that the story (at least the TV show) has not bothered to tell us hardly -anything- about. What happened during that time? Is it reasonable to think that during the days while things were getting worse and civilization was falling apart that there might have been at least RUMORS (much less official government reports) that some people were becoming zombies that had not been attacked by other zombies? Come on people - imagine what it would be like if the world was falling apart around you. You don't have to be a hyper-genius superhero in real life to pay attention to what's happening and have SOME idea as to what was going on, even from the point of view of average, normal people.
I don't think it's too much to ask from a viewer of this show to at least realize that there was this chunk of time that happened "off-camera" that has to be accounted for somehow. Once again I would expect Rick to be "slow on the uptake" because he had the excuse of being in a coma the whole time. But there really is NO excuse for any of the other characters to be anywhere near as ignorant about the zombies as he is because they actually lived through the day-to-day chaos of the world coming to an end.
I think what's ultimately frustrating about this show for me is that the writers seem to be treating it as if ALL the characters had been in a coma just like Rick. They don't seem to understand that these characters, even accounting for their random individual experiences, should have learned far more about zombies than they are being given credit for. I'm not saying they would know things about zombies the same way some characters like Spock or Sherlock Holmes would know about them, but they'd at least know some fundamental practical things that they seem completely clueless about even now.
Bottomline I don't need these people to know EVERYTHING about zombies. But I do need them to know at least what average, normal people would reasonably understand about them after learning to survive a couple of months in a post Zombie Apocalypse world. The writers simply need to come to grips with the simple fact that their characters can't be as -completely- clueless as they are making them out to be.
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Frankly, I don't care.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
All I'm asking people here to think about is that there was a period of roughly 4 to 6 weeks, while Rick was in coma, that the story (at least the TV show) has not bothered to tell us hardly -anything- about. What happened during that time?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Is it reasonable to think that during the days while things were getting worse and civilization was falling apart that there might have been at least RUMORS (much less official government reports) that some people were becoming zombies that had not been attacked by other zombies?
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Is it reasonable to assume that everyone heard every rumor? Or that there were louder or more distracting rumors - it's just a disease, it wears off, it is a stunt, there is a vaccine, hallucinagen in the water (the list could be pretty long)? Or how many people listened to the official line? Or that things fell apart quickly enough that communication of fact and rumor collapsed before word got out?
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Come on people - imagine what it would be like if the world was falling apart around you. You don't have to be a hyper-genius superhero in real life to pay attention to what's happening and have SOME idea as to what was going on, even from the point of view of average, normal people.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I think what's ultimately frustrating about this show for me is that the writers seem to be treating it as if ALL the characters had been in a coma just like Rick.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not saying they would know things about zombies the same way some characters like Spock or Sherlock Holmes would know about them, but they'd at least know some fundamental practical things that they seem completely clueless about even now.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Bottomline I don't need these people to know EVERYTHING about zombies. But I do need them to know at least what average, normal people would reasonably understand about them after learning to survive a couple of months in a post Zombie Apocalypse world. The writers simply need to come to grips with the simple fact that their characters can't be as -completely- clueless as they are making them out to be.
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I accept that this group of characters falls into a group that does not know much, yet, and the writers clearly are sharing their learning process with us.
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For whatever reason that is what the average person in that world knows though. That is pretty much the premise of the show. The world's gone to hell very quickly and very very few people know what's actually going on. One of the few that did, passed the information on to Rick before dying. Rick has sat on this knowledge (likely because he had doubts) for his own reasons. It's not a detail that personally gets me all that worked up. If it does some people I'm not sure what to say. To each their own I guess.
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A "learning process" implies going from one level of growth to another. I'm beginning to fear this show and its characters have effectively been stuck in "neutral" for far too long.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
It is completely realistic that there would be a range of experiences and knowledge that people would have. Some would "know everything". Others wouldn't, for a variety of reasons.
I accept that this group of characters falls into a group that does not know much, yet, and the writers clearly are sharing their learning process with us. |
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
For whatever reason that is what the average person in that world knows though. That is pretty much the premise of the show. The world's gone to hell very quickly and very very few people know what's actually going on. One of the few that did, passed the information on to Rick before dying. Rick has sat on this knowledge (likely because he had doubts) for his own reasons. It's not a detail that personally gets me all that worked up. If it does some people I'm not sure what to say. To each their own I guess.
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I'm all for the general premise of "let's see what happens to a bunch of random average people who are suddenly thrown into a post zombie apocalypse world". On the face of it it is a very cool story idea. But the problem I'm having with it now is that these characters don't really seem to be going ANYWHERE with it, and I don't just mean how they've been stuck on Hershel's farm in the middle of nowhere for a dozen episodes. Where's the character growth? Where's the reveal of hard knowledge about the zombies? How many more seasons are we supposed to wait before Dr. Jenner's whispered secret kicks in and actually means something?
All I'm really starting to see here is cool story premise that's stalling out big time. I consider myself a very patient person as far as letting stories unfold in their due time. I just get the sense that this story is moving so glacially that I'm starting to wonder if there's any "there" there. Hopefully the last show will set the stage for some hope that the next season will actually budge them out of neutral and have the group collectively go somewhere story-wise.
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Viruses mutate and change over time plain and simple.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I'm not wanting or asking for the characters in this show to all be "super scientist-commandos" who are going to go out and "save the world" from from the zombie menace. I'm not expecting them to instantly have all the answers or to know how to deal with everything they face. I realize this is a random collection of average, normal people who are more or less just struggling to survive day-to-day.
All I'm asking people here to think about is that there was a period of roughly 4 to 6 weeks, while Rick was in coma, that the story (at least the TV show) has not bothered to tell us hardly -anything- about. What happened during that time? Is it reasonable to think that during the days while things were getting worse and civilization was falling apart that there might have been at least RUMORS (much less official government reports) that some people were becoming zombies that had not been attacked by other zombies? Come on people - imagine what it would be like if the world was falling apart around you. You don't have to be a hyper-genius superhero in real life to pay attention to what's happening and have SOME idea as to what was going on, even from the point of view of average, normal people. I don't think it's too much to ask from a viewer of this show to at least realize that there was this chunk of time that happened "off-camera" that has to be accounted for somehow. Once again I would expect Rick to be "slow on the uptake" because he had the excuse of being in a coma the whole time. But there really is NO excuse for any of the other characters to be anywhere near as ignorant about the zombies as he is because they actually lived through the day-to-day chaos of the world coming to an end. I think what's ultimately frustrating about this show for me is that the writers seem to be treating it as if ALL the characters had been in a coma just like Rick. They don't seem to understand that these characters, even accounting for their random individual experiences, should have learned far more about zombies than they are being given credit for. I'm not saying they would know things about zombies the same way some characters like Spock or Sherlock Holmes would know about them, but they'd at least know some fundamental practical things that they seem completely clueless about even now. Bottomline I don't need these people to know EVERYTHING about zombies. But I do need them to know at least what average, normal people would reasonably understand about them after learning to survive a couple of months in a post Zombie Apocalypse world. The writers simply need to come to grips with the simple fact that their characters can't be as -completely- clueless as they are making them out to be. |
As for those zombie flash images when Rick killed Shane I also thought it was what Shane was seeing as he was turning zombie himself. Kinda a glimpse of what someone sees right before they turn no white light for zombies hehe.
Lothic, I'll give you 99.9% of your post as just a different perspective, YMMV, etc. But to say there hasn't been character growth?
1. Glenn goes from awkward coy errand boy to confident pharmacy love machine.
2. Andrea goes from suicidal wet blanket to gun toting bada$$ chick AND back to a voice of reason.
3. Herschal goes from bible toting sober head-in-the-sand get off my lawn vet to realizing just how F'd up the world is over a cocktail or two. He finally invites them into the house as his own people.
4. Maggie gains confidence and stands her ground to her father over the group and Glenn.
5. Rick is a steady journey of growth in his role as leader.
6. The reveal of Sophia radically changed her mother and Daryl.
7. Daryl went from loner to vital group member to outcast and now likely a major leadership role.
The only ones really stuck in place are Lori and Shane and we've seen what happens to Shane and my money is on Lori's time being pretty limited. T-Dawg....I'll give you that one as he's really just been used in the periphery. That leaves us Carl and I think his turning point was definitely this last episode.
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I won't argue the position that there's been absolutely no individual character growth in this show. Obviously you can cite examples of that to various degrees.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Lothic, I'll give you 99.9% of your post as just a different perspective, YMMV, etc. But to say there hasn't been character growth?
1. Glenn goes from awkward coy errand boy to confident pharmacy love machine. 2. Andrea goes from suicidal wet blanket to gun toting bada$$ chick AND back to a voice of reason. 3. Herschal goes from bible toting sober head-in-the-sand get off my lawn vet to realizing just how F'd up the world is over a cocktail or two. He finally invites them into the house as his own people. 4. Maggie gains confidence and stands her ground to her father over the group and Glenn. 5. Rick is a steady journey of growth in his role as leader. 6. The reveal of Sophia radically changed her mother and Daryl. 7. Daryl went from loner to vital group member to outcast and now likely a major leadership role. The only ones really stuck in place are Lori and Shane and we've seen what happens to Shane and my money is on Lori's time being pretty limited. T-Dawg....I'll give you that one as he's really just been used in the periphery. That leaves us Carl and I think his turning point was definitely this last episode. |
But just as Chyll doesn't seem to think it's very important to understand anything about the initial nature of the zombies or what the characters know about them beyond the simple-minded response of "See zombie, kill zombie" I likewise don't really consider it too important to dwell on how the characters are going through their cliched, one-dimensional evolutions. I mean of course Rick is going to "grow" as a leader and who didn't expect to see Glenn "grow up and become a man" or Andrea become a "strong confident woman" after she overcame her suicidal funk? I mean seriously, if you had asked me to guess where most of the characters were going to "grow" to at the very beginning of the show I probably would have nailed 80-90% of them without much effort.
Perhaps I just think "a show about zombies" ought to focus a tiny bit more on the zombies and not try to be a soap-opera with a few minutes of pseudo-horror sprinkled on top. I'm all for the idea of sci-fi and horror being used as vehicles to present meaningful human drama. I just think in order for that to work you need to have the proper mix of "human drama" balanced by "genre content". If the show is going to concentrate too much on the human-stuff then why even bother having any zombies standing in the background at all?
Maybe that's why I wanted more revealed about the zombie portions of this show - the semi-wooden (and sometimes even borderline idiotic) characters aren't quite enough to carry the show for me all by themselves. *shrugs*
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This has not been my point. And I apologize if I have failed to communicate beyond this inaccurate interpretation.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
But just as Chyll doesn't seem to think it's very important to understand anything about the initial nature of the zombies or what the characters know about them beyond the simple-minded response of "See zombie, kill zombie"
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Perhaps I just think "a show about zombies" ought to focus a tiny bit more on the zombies and not try to be a soap-opera with a few minutes of pseudo-horror sprinkled on top.
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This story is not about zombies. At all.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Your point has been that you don't really care about the particulars of how the zombies "work" because you (as you just said) don't really consider the zombies to be important in and of themselves. Did I miss your point with this?|
Originally Posted by Chyll
This has not been my point. And I apologize if I have failed to communicate beyond this inaccurate interpretation.
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Originally Posted by Chyll
And this may be the 'ah ha!' moment.
This story is not about zombies. At all. |
If all these people had found themselves trapped on a desert island I'm sure it would be interesting to see how they get along under that circumstance. But don't you think it might eventually be important to know -how- they got there, especially considering that that knowledge might eventually lead to the ultimate resolution of their characters? I do. Why put them on that island if you're not going to eventually explain the need for the "island" in the first place?
Likewise if The Walking Dead doesn't eventually reveal its "Big Secret" about why the zombies came about and/or how they fit into the big picture then we may never have the proper context to understand or care about what happens to the ultimate fate of the characters.
Sorry but this is just a variation of Chekhov's gun - the zombies -must- serve a purpose in the story else there was no point in having them be there in the first place.
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Yes, and no. My point was that your questions and issues with understanding zombies are valid, and that of the... thousands?... left alive many of them probably have dealt with the issues and available information as you have suggested. Not every single group of survivors would have experienced the same things, heard the same rumors and stories, etc. etc. This is realistic and acceptable to me...|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Your point has been that you don't really care about the particulars of how the zombies "work" because you (as you just said) don't really consider the zombies to be important in and of themselves. Did I miss your point with this?
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...In no small part because this provides an aid for the progression of the story that supports:
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Originally Posted by Lothic
...a drama that's using the "backdrop" of a zombie apocalypse as a means to explore various human relationships that you normally would not see in "real" life.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
But just because it's primary focus is on how these humans are dealing with this situation doesn't mean that we (as the audience) should never care or ever learn anything about the circumstances that put these humans in this situation in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
If all these people had found themselves trapped on a desert island I'm sure it would be interesting to see how they get along under that circumstance. But don't you think it might eventually be important to know -how- they got there, especially considering that that knowledge might eventually lead to the ultimately resolution of their characters? I do - why put them on that island if you're not going to eventually explain the need for the "island" in the first place?
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But I - personal opinion - do not think this story is about the how/why of zombies. It happened. It is done. This is the new world and they have to make their way in it. They are a month or so in (at a guesstimate) and are starting to learn 'the rules' for long term survival - some learned the hard way and others will be 'taught' them by other survivors with different perspectives and experiences. I have read far enough into the comic to reach that conclusion, and have seen no signs that the author intends differently: that is, AFAIK, this is just the story of Carl and Rick in zombieland.
(Granted, the show may move things in a different direction.)
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This is the best sentence of the thread.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Glenn goes from awkward coy errand boy to confident pharmacy love machine.
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"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
Makes you wonder if he knew... why would he even consider hanging Randall? Maybe act all surprised when Randall comes back as a way of letting the group know?