The Walking Dead returns...
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-01-25 18:27 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
I also blame Carl for Dale's death in last weeks episode, even if he didn't kill the zombie, he should have went and told someone. I really don't like Carl he is a complete idiot and for people who are gonna say, "Oh come on he is a kid, blah blah blah." You know there comes an age when technically you are still a kid but you should know better and you should take responsibilty for your actions and Carl is old enough, especially since zombies you have to age quickly.
Cancel the kitchen scraps for widows and lepers, no more merciful beheadings and call off christmas!
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Well, it's only been at most 6 months; it's sometimes hard to change. This recklessness of Carl appears to be a direct impact from the loss of Sophia; he didn't start finding trouble until after she disappeared. Maybe he is trying to find his place in the group? |
Originally Posted by 2short2care
I also blame Carl for Dale's death in last weeks episode, even if he didn't kill the zombie, he should have went and told someone. I really don't like Carl he is a complete idiot and for people who are gonna say, "Oh come on he is a kid, blah blah blah." You know there comes an age when technically you are still a kid but you should know better and you should take responsibilty for your actions and Carl is old enough, especially since zombies you have to age quickly.
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On a side note, I agree, he's being an idiot, and after this, I would expect him to be ordered to stay with an adult at all times. If they don't, well, he deserves whatever he gets.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.
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Lol he was ordered to stay with an adult at all times before and look how well that turned out. I guess it's leash time and triple knot that sucker with superglue.
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Originally Posted by Frost Warden
Well, it's only been at most 6 months; it's sometimes hard to change. This recklessness of Carl appears to be a direct impact from the loss of Sophia; he didn't start finding trouble until after she disappeared. Maybe he is trying to find his place in the group?
On a side note, I agree, he's being an idiot, and after this, I would expect him to be ordered to stay with an adult at all times. If they don't, well, he deserves whatever he gets. |
Cancel the kitchen scraps for widows and lepers, no more merciful beheadings and call off christmas!
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*** Standard comicbook spolier warning ***|
Originally Posted by Frost Warden
OK, it's been awhile since I read the earlier books, but didn't they find this out after the farm? I don't see to recall them coming across this issue until, well....can't say too much without a potential spoiler. Pretty sure Tyreese's daughter was the first one they encountered, but I could totally be misremembering it. (Unfortunately, senility is creeping in, so it could totally be me.
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I think you're right that the first time we (the readers of the comicbook) see a person "pop" back up as a zombie like that was Tyreese's daughter.
But when that happened there was no shock about it - Tyreese just "handled" it like he knew it was going to happen. In fact the whole way Tyreese's daughter and boyfriend were planning on committing suicide was to take that into account and make sure that each of them -couldn't- come back as zombies.
I'm reasonably sure that the comicbook used Rick's encounter with Morgan and Duane Jones right after he woke up from his coma as the opportunity to educate Rick (as well as the comicbook reader) about how the zombies worked in this world. There was never any "shock" or "mystery" about it, and that's likely why the comicbook didn't need a trip to the CDC to have a Dr. Jenner whisper to Rick about it either.
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Tyrese might not have been surprised, I don't recall exactly, but apparently Rick was, because it was after that when Rick went back to dig up Shane's body and shoot him in the head. So either no one knew, or they just didn't bother to mention it to Rick.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
*** Standard comicbook spolier warning ***
I think you're right that the first time we (the readers of the comicbook) see a person "pop" back up as a zombie like that was Tyreese's daughter. But when that happened there was no shock about it - Tyreese just "handled" it like he knew it was going to happen. In fact the whole way Tyreese's daughter and boyfriend were planning on committing suicide was to take that into account and make sure that each of them -couldn't- come back as zombies. I'm reasonably sure that the comicbook used Rick's encounter with Morgan and Duane Jones right after he woke up from his coma as the opportunity to educate Rick (as well as the comicbook reader) about how the zombies worked in this world. There was never any "shock" or "mystery" about it, and that's likely why the comicbook didn't need a trip to the CDC to have a Dr. Jenner whisper to Rick about it either. |
As for Carl, I guess all the adults were just hiding in the basement waiting for Rick, et al, to come back from looking for Randall? It's one thing to suspend disbelief that with a possible attack from outsiders coming at any minute, Lori wouldn't have kept Carl right beside her the whole time, but for none of them to even be guarding the doors, or looking out the windows to see him leaving the house...?
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It still just strikes me as terribly improbable that this key "fact" about how the Zombie Apocalypse works could be kept a secret from all the characters (in either the comicbook or the TV show).|
Originally Posted by mousedroid
Tyrese might not have been surprised, I don't recall exactly, but apparently Rick was, because it was after that when Rick went back to dig up Shane's body and shoot him in the head. So either no one knew, or they just didn't bother to mention it to Rick.
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Even if you can make the case that comicbook Rick was the only one who didn't know then why didn't anyone bother to mention that tiny bit of info to him while Shane was being buried? You'd think someone would ask him "Hey Rick, did you make sure to crush Shane's head before you buried him first?"
Again there's a difference between having a mystery for the audience to be kept in the dark about versus what the characters in the story would know - I think during the weeks that all hell was breaking loose that how people become zombies would have become very general knowledge to any survivor who lived through the chaos of that.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
As for Carl, I guess all the adults were just hiding in the basement waiting for Rick, et al, to come back from looking for Randall? It's one thing to suspend disbelief that with a possible attack from outsiders coming at any minute, Lori wouldn't have kept Carl right beside her the whole time, but for none of them to even be guarding the doors, or looking out the windows to see him leaving the house...?
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I don't know... they are presenting a presumption on the part of the characters that there 'must be a bite somewhere' or 'maybe a scratch'. There is an assumption, given credence by a lack of empirical study (what, stop to inspect the walkers chasing them or the one just laid out?), that the condition is only transferred via infected walkers.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Again there's a difference between having a mystery for the audience to be kept in the dark about versus what the characters in the story would know - I think during the weeks that all hell was breaking loose that how people become zombies would have become very general knowledge to any survivor who lived through the chaos of that.
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And frankly, I think this is hardly a stretch at all. The time at the farm is the first things have been relatively calm and stationary. Not running for their lives has actually provided them the opportunity to stop and look and think. Neither do I have any sense that they have been exposed to much death other than when zombies have been around until now to make that comparison.
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Wow, I didn't see that coming. I thought they would drag out the whole Shane/Rick tension much longer than that. Glad Rick did what he had to do, though. Hopefully we won't see him festering on the fact that he killed Shane for too long.
While I didn't think Carl was so much dumb as just being a kid (in regards to last week's zombie) I did find it somewhat stupid that he couldn't just say "Hey dad, get down!" or at least yell out "WALKER!" this week. Seriously, who wouldn't say something?!
Oh well.
Great episode all around. I had heard about the "anyone can become a zombie when they die" from the comic books. So I wasn't all that surprised. I can even believe they haven't seen it happen until now. Things get hectic when you flee a city full of zombies, or so I would assume. But it would be nice if they could give some reasons behind it the new discovery.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
So... what exactly do you think it was we were seeing with those little flashes as Shane was lying there on the ground? Were those his "dying thoughts" or were they images flashing through his mind as the virus reactivated certain synapses in his brain like Jenner's MRI showed? And if they were the latter, what does that mean? Do the zombies posses some sort of rudimentary hive mind?
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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The problem at hand is that both in the TV show and the comicbook there was a period of roughly 4-6 weeks between the time Rick went into coma and when we first see him wake up and stumble out of the hospital. It's during this "transitional" period when the world went to hell and something like 95% of everyone either died or became a zombie.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
I don't know... they are presenting a presumption on the part of the characters that there 'must be a bite somewhere' or 'maybe a scratch'. There is an assumption, given credence by a lack of empirical study (what, stop to inspect the walkers chasing them or the one just laid out?), that the condition is only transferred via infected walkers.
And frankly, I think this is hardly a stretch at all. The time at the farm is the first things have been relatively calm and stationary. Not running for their lives has actually provided them the opportunity to stop and look and think. Neither do I have any sense that they have been exposed to much death other than when zombies have been around until now to make that comparison. |
All things being equal I have to believe that during those days when the government was losing control and there was (presumably) widespread panic and death that most of the people who would be considered "survivors" would have had to have learned -something- about what was going on. Sure they might not know what was causing it, but surely they would have seen HOW people were becoming zombies. Certainly during the last couple of days before the news/Internet failed there would've been people saying stuff like "OMG, Grandma just keeled over then woke up as a zombie! How did -that- happen?!?"
Again I'm just incredulous that the group would not know something so fundamental as this. At least in the comicbook they sort of made it pretty clear that's what was going on without dwelling on it. I think the only reason the TV show was playing at the "presumption" that it had to be an attack from a zombie is that this is what the audience expects. Most zombie shows don't offer the idea that EVERYONE automatically becomes a zombie when they die so that novel twist had become the TV show's "big reveal". For the TV show I think they just made it an "artificial mystery" that ultimately doesn't make much sense when you compare that to the knowledge the characters would/should already have.
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Maybe... but that ignores the issue of who survived and who didn't in suchsituations (given the variability of time until rising), we do not know what the mass media communication may have been on this topic (remember that the last any of these survivors heard was to gather at Atlanta and that was clearly quite out of date), and the common perception getting totally overwhelmed with images of the dead eating ppl.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
The problem at hand is that both in the TV show and the comicbook there was a period of roughly 4-6 weeks between the time Rick went into coma and when we first see him wake up and stumble out of the hospital. It's during this "transitional" period when the world went to hell and something like 95% of everyone either died or became a zombie.
All things being equal I have to believe that during those days when the government was losing control and there was (presumably) widespread panic and death that most of the people who would be considered "survivors" would have had to have learned -something- about what was going on. Sure they might not know what was causing it, but surely they would have seen HOW people were becoming zombies. Certainly during the last couple of days before the news/Internet failed there would've been people saying stuff like "OMG, Grandma just keeled over then woke up as a zombie! How did -that- happen?!?" |
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Again I'm just incredulous that the group would not know something so fundamental as this.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
At least in the comicbook they sort of made it pretty clear that's what was going on without dwelling on it. I think the only reason the TV show was playing at the "presumption" that it had to be an attack from a zombie is that this is what the audience expects. Most zombie shows don't offer the idea that EVERYONE automatically becomes a zombie when they die so that novel twist had become the TV show's "big reveal"..
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R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
Quote:
It's possible people haven't been coming back or people coming back have been fairly rare. Ths could be a recent mutation in the *insert cause here* that causes it. I doubt they put that much thought into how the whole thing works though.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
It still just strikes me as terribly improbable that this key "fact" about how the Zombie Apocalypse works could be kept a secret from all the characters (in either the comicbook or the TV show).
Even if you can make the case that comicbook Rick was the only one who didn't know then why didn't anyone bother to mention that tiny bit of info to him while Shane was being buried? You'd think someone would ask him "Hey Rick, did you make sure to crush Shane's head before you buried him first?" Again there's a difference between having a mystery for the audience to be kept in the dark about versus what the characters in the story would know - I think during the weeks that all hell was breaking loose that how people become zombies would have become very general knowledge to any survivor who lived through the chaos of that. |
It's also possible for such basic knowledge to simply have gotten past this group of survivors. They've had a fairly small group that seems to have bolted fast when things started going down. They've had no accidental deaths or deaths from natural causes and most of them that did die, died from ghoul attack. The others have (coincidentally) died from head trauma.
Given that, if the communications and media went down fast enough or the *insert cause here* that makes people become walkers spreads to the living slowly enough, it's very likely that an isolated, somewhat lucky group of survivors would be slow to figure out that pretty much everyone who died from there on out would be coming back. It also assumes noone in the group was genre savy (I'm pretty sure a large percentage of the people on this board would be spiking people's heads in that situation just to be safe without any evidence that the formerly alive returned without ghoul bites).
This is one place where the very slow timetable of the show works against it with the audience. For us, it's been almost two years since Z-Day, for the characters in the show, it's been a few months, tops and maybe as little at 4 to 6 weeks. They're still in traumatic shock from the world sliding down into hell and just now starting to sort themselves out about it. They're still smarting from the loss of their families and friends. They're still figuring out a world without instant communications, without instant access to information and without someone learning something new and an hour later the rest of the planet being able to know it too.
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Well, we know that turning can take different lengths of time to take place. So maybe they don't see a body long enough for it come back when they know it shouldn't. We also have little to assume from that our group on the show has seen that many people killed from natural causes or by being murdered without being scratched or bitten. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Again I'm just incredulous that the group would not know something so fundamental as this. At least in the comicbook they sort of made it pretty clear that's what was going on without dwelling on it. I think the only reason the TV show was playing at the "presumption" that it had to be an attack from a zombie is that this is what the audience expects. Most zombie shows don't offer the idea that EVERYONE automatically becomes a zombie when they die so that novel twist had become the TV show's "big reveal". For the TV show I think they just made it an "artificial mystery" that ultimately doesn't make much sense when you compare that to the knowledge the characters would/should already have.
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Shane saw military shooting up citizens in the hospital, but he didn't stick around long to see if any get up. And while murder has taken place a couple of times on the show, it hasn't been that much. And hardly without zombies around. So, in the few times they've seen re-activated victims, I doubt the need to look for bite marks has been there.
I think only now did Daryl stop to look because he saw things weren't adding up with Shane's story (foot prints being in tandem and a scuffle in the tracks). Had he not been suspicious of Shane, he might not have bothered to search the body.
So, while out there in the rest of the world, people might have noticed this. I can see how our group, being smaller and through its own path through survival, hasn't seen it yet.
Just my 2 cents on the topic.
@Rylas
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It is somewhat amusing to think back at how many times the producers did point out "by the way, you should know that the living, if they die, can become Walkers" that the characters did miss and assumed automaticaly that walkers had bitten or scratched the ghoul they found.
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Originally Posted by Rylas
Well, we know that turning can take different lengths of time to take place. So maybe they don't see a body long enough for it come back when they know it shouldn't. We also have little to assume from that our group on the show has seen that many people killed from natural causes or by being murdered without being scratched or bitten.
Shane saw military shooting up citizens in the hospital, but he didn't stick around long to see if any get up. And while murder has taken place a couple of times on the show, it hasn't been that much. And hardly without zombies around. So, in the few times they've seen re-activated victims, I doubt the need to look for bite marks has been there. I think only now did Daryl stop to look because he saw things weren't adding up with Shane's story (foot prints being in tandem and a scuffle in the tracks). Had he not been suspicious of Shane, he might not have bothered to search the body. So, while out there in the rest of the world, people might have noticed this. I can see how our group, being smaller and through its own path through survival, hasn't seen it yet. Just my 2 cents on the topic. |
I'm not sure why the turning into a zombie after you die is a surprise for the characters. I recall a few episodes earlier when Daryl and the blonde chick were out looking for Sophia, they came across a campsite. Outside the campsite there was a guy that hung himself, he had turned into a walker. Daryl made a remark about how the guy was dumb because he hung himself instead of shooting himself.
Although the timing of the reanimation seems to be convenient to the story line, for example, in the time it took Shane to come back, those guys Rick killed in the bar should have came back to life while Rick and his crew were still inside with the bodies.
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The campsite guy was bitten, which is why he chose to hang himself rather than turn because he assumed that death = the end.|
Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I'm not sure why the turning into a zombie after you die is a surprise for the characters. I recall a few episodes earlier when Daryl and the blonde chick were out looking for Sophia, they came across a campsite. Outside the campsite there was a guy that hung himself, he had turned into a walker. Daryl made a remark about how the guy was dumb because he hung himself instead of shooting himself.
Although the timing of the reanimation seems to be convenient to the story line, for example, in the time it took Shane to come back, those guys Rick killed in the bar should have came back to life while Rick and his crew were still inside with the bodies. |
Reanimation time does vary, as Jenner points out when discussing the test subject last season. I think they (show runner this season) attempted some lame artsy move with the camera flashes..but it made sense with past information.
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Plus, if we trust Shane he implies things went to heck real fast. He mentioned a few crazy news stories and then it just went downhill. The zombies wouldn't even have to do it, once general panic sets in and our food distribution network is disrupted we're in a world of hurt. You also have to figure that the people who are first responding (police, medics, doctors, hospital staff...) are most likely some of the first to die from the attacks. I'm wiling to bet the four to six weeks before Rick woke up were not filled with orderly messages from the government on what was going on and why. Everyone on TV would be spouting off on this, experts would be paraded out to give their views... and good lord the internet. Look at what crazy nonsense people believe NOW just from the internet, with zombies coming back the rumors and stories would be insane. With this group on the run, and no group trusting other groups, I find it plausible that they wouldn't have made this connection till they stopped and were able to assess rationally what is going on.
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Originally Posted by Redbone
It's possible people haven't been coming back or people coming back have been fairly rare. Ths could be a recent mutation in the *insert cause here* that causes it. I doubt they put that much thought into how the whole thing works though.
It's also possible for such basic knowledge to simply have gotten past this group of survivors. They've had a fairly small group that seems to have bolted fast when things started going down. They've had no accidental deaths or deaths from natural causes and most of them that did die, died from ghoul attack. The others have (coincidentally) died from head trauma. Given that, if the communications and media went down fast enough or the *insert cause here* that makes people become walkers spreads to the living slowly enough, it's very likely that an isolated, somewhat lucky group of survivors would be slow to figure out that pretty much everyone who died from there on out would be coming back. It also assumes noone in the group was genre savy (I'm pretty sure a large percentage of the people on this board would be spiking people's heads in that situation just to be safe without any evidence that the formerly alive returned without ghoul bites). This is one place where the very slow timetable of the show works against it with the audience. For us, it's been almost two years since Z-Day, for the characters in the show, it's been a few months, tops and maybe as little at 4 to 6 weeks. They're still in traumatic shock from the world sliding down into hell and just now starting to sort themselves out about it. They're still smarting from the loss of their families and friends. They're still figuring out a world without instant communications, without instant access to information and without someone learning something new and an hour later the rest of the planet being able to know it too. |
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Pretty sure Rick plugged both of them in the skull. The guy behind the bar he shot right between the eyes, the fat guy he shot in the chest and when he went down, Rick shot him a second time in the head.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
Although the timing of the reanimation seems to be convenient to the story line, for example, in the time it took Shane to come back, those guys Rick killed in the bar should have came back to life while Rick and his crew were still inside with the bodies.
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Yeah, he double tapped the one he shot in the chest and the second he shot in the head. Which did indicate that Rick probably had knowledge the one he shot in the chest would reanimate.
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Originally Posted by mousedroid
Pretty sure Rick plugged both of them in the skull. The guy behind the bar he shot right between the eyes, the fat guy he shot in the chest and when he went down, Rick shot him a second time in the head.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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I think he shot that dude in the head out of rage more than anything.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Yeah, he double tapped the one he shot in the chest and the second he shot in the head. Which did indicate that Rick probably had knowledge the one he shot in the chest would reanimate.
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Well I'll just put it this way: If I were to have to live through a Zombie Apocalypse I would probably do my best to understand as much about the zombies as possible. Who knows... that info just 'might' be useful to me.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
Suffice to say our conclusions differ completely.
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Sure I'm no genetic engineer or Catholic bishop so I might not ever fully understand exactly WHY the Zombie Apocalypse happened. But for something so fundamental as "What makes a dead person rise as a zombie?" I would hope that "We don't know anything other than ANYONE can pop up whether they've been attacked or not" would be established very quickly as the world crumbled around you. As you say our conclusions differ completely because I'd consider it absolutely fundamental to the story (or my survival again assuming it was happening for real) to know something like that.
The idea that either of these sets of survivors (either from the comicbook or especially TV show) don't know something as blatantly obvious as this simply bothers me on a purely logical level. It's like the authors are assuming these people are artificially stupid or unobservant of things going on around them. Did no one commit suicide or have a heart attack while things were circling the drain?
But even if you don't agree with me on this then here's the real kicker: Dr. Jenner. Are we supposed to believe that he wouldn't have been able to tell that the virus = zombie-ism even if the victim hadn't been "attacked" by an active zombie? Surely he knew they were all infected after those blood tests, surely he knew people could reanimate even if there were no scratches or bites and surely (until we learn otherwise) we have to assume what he whispered to Rick was "We're all doomed to become zombies so that's why I'm going to kill myself." Why Rick hasn't spilled the beans on what Jenner whispered to him is probably the REAL mystery left to be told.
I guess it just frustrates me to think that these people would not have the simplest of suspicions or that having at least a working clue is "important" to a situation that involves zombies potentially wiping out humanity. I suppose when the Martians invade Earth the leftover pockets of survivors won't care to learn the aliens' most basic modes of operation either...
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Yeah, he double tapped the one he shot in the chest and the second he shot in the head. Which did indicate that Rick probably had knowledge the one he shot in the chest would reanimate.
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Originally Posted by mrfurious76
I think he shot that dude in the head out of rage more than anything.
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I think it was another hint (like we've gotten the last few episodes) what Jenner had whipsered to him.
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Originally Posted by mrfurious76
I think he shot that dude in the head out of rage more than anything.
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
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I believe Carl showing up is what kept him from doing that.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Actually if we are to believe that Dr. Jenner told Rick the "big secret" about everyone reanimating after death then it makes perfect sense that he'd make sure he head-shoted those guys. On the other hand if we are to assume that he knows then you'd have to ask why he didn't quickly try to pop Shane in the head. Curiouser and curiouser...
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@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Now granted, Zombie land is a lot different than the late 70s, but not by that much.
I find your lack of signature disturbing.