Wentworth's - perfect player auction house or what?
By
Bosstone,
Posted on: 2012-01-02 19:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I played a popular online space game that had a much better market than WWs.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
I know not everyone likes the consignment system vs. an auction system, but I like it. It has several advantages -- for the patient, I can bid at the price I want to pay and eventually get it (unless I'm being totally unreasonable on a popular item). I can also sell at the price I want, and with patience it will eventually sell. And for the impatient, I don't have to wait for an auction to end if I want it NOW and I have the money.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
I played a popular online space game that had a much better market than WWs.
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Only being able to look at the last 5 values of something being sold is a pain but there's a lot that could be improved.
I make billions of inf off it, but I don't actually like it entirely -- I really like having the ability to advertise prices, I like the possibility of a range of offered prices, stuff like that.
I played EVE Online for a few years while taking a break from COX. Having a degree in Economics and a financial background that is the only MMO gaming market that comes anywhere near RL and I love it.
Wentworth's is nice for a game like this, but certainly could be improved upon.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
There's a sucker shopping at WW every minute and so far WW's been great for sending them and their willingness to overpay straight to my offerings to the tune of 12.5bn inf and counting....thank you very much.
For purchases, I use AE tickets; Reward Merits and A-Merits far, far more often than the auction house.
Overall, the system functions well, I'd say. I definitely prefer the system we have to a more standard auction system, that's for sure, and I say that as both a seller and a buyer. Granted, I'm not in the "money is no object" club like some people are, though that's in part because I have so many alts, and I've generally been able to build all of those characters to a level that pleases me for an in-game cost that never leaves me broke.
I do, and I admit I may be alone on this, vastly prefer the old interface, but that's fairly minor.
I do have one big, big, giant most extreme gripe, though, and that's not being able to bid on ranges of IOs. This wouldn't be so bad if they didn't exist at every level. But whoever thought there should be level 36 Recipes was obviously not working in a cubicle near the person who thought that every single level should be bid on separately. Seriously.
The perfect player auction house is one that doesn't exist.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
The auction house in this game is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
And then there's the down side.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
The AH could be a lot better, but at least it tells you for what prices things have been selling, rather than what the in-stock prices are. If the only data you have is what the sellers want for their goods, you have no easy way to know if that's the moving price or if those are the expensive leftovers nobody will buy. You can't work well on that info alone. Telling you the prices people have been buying at is vastly more useful.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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But only on the last 5 purchases, which is easily manipulatable, and I don't even play the market, have a single character that has ever earned or had to be concerned with carrying more than 2billion inf personally, or anything of the sort. I'm not a market player nor care to be... I am (generally) a patient one though.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
The AH could be a lot better, but at least it tells you for what prices things have been selling, rather than what the in-stock prices are. If the only data you have is what the sellers want for their goods, you have no easy way to know if that's the moving price or if those are the expensive leftovers nobody will buy. You can't work well on that info alone. Telling you the prices people have been buying at is vastly more useful.
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If you think those last 5 sales is some kind of true indicator or safety net on some particular items, then well my friend... you are wrong!
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Sure, whatever you say, 'friend'.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
But only on the last 5 purchases, which is easily manipulatable, and I don't even play the market, have a single character that has ever earned or had to be concerned with carrying more than 2billion inf personally, or anything of the sort. I'm not a market player nor care to be... I am (generally) a patient one though.
If you think those last 5 sales is some kind of true indicator or safety net on some particular items, then well my friend... you are wrong! |
I only said it's far more useful than seeing only what the sellers want you to pay. I stand by that.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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The "Well friend... you are wrong!" is a catch phrase from somewhere else I was borrowing from another source because I thought it was funny, and meant nothing demeaning by it. On the other hand, the point I was making about some particular items being easily manipulatable within that history, still stands.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Sure, whatever you say, 'friend'.
I only said it's far more useful than seeing only what the sellers want you to pay. I stand by that. |
There are numerous things you can get a considerable more inf for (or pay considerably less for) if you are patient, vs. what you may see regulary in the 'purchase' history. That was all I was saying. Stand by it all you want, but when I buy (regular) purples or rares, for less than hundreds of thousands of inf less than what's normally listed in the last five purchases- or sell for that ammount after I've paid far less, I'll laugh all the way to the bank you proclaim to 'stand by', because I'm willing to wait a while to buy or sell it based on that information. Again, I say this not as an 'ebil marketeer' who has made billions on the market (never had a character with a billion on it, much less seeking ways to pass it off on other characters to make room past 2 bil.) I'm not that patient or cutthroat, because I just want to enjoy my time online instead of making a mini-game of [pancaking] other players, or getting [pancaked] myself. My most profitable character has just recently surpased half a billion.
I'm really, truly, trying to be instructive here, not mean. However, I'm not going to spell it out for you either if you can't figure out what I was just explaining.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Fair enough.
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
The "Well friend... you are wrong!" is a catch phrase from somewhere else I was borrowing from another source because I thought it was funny, and meant nothing demeaning by it.
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| I'm really, truly, trying to be instructive here, not mean. However, I'm not going to spell it out for you either if you can't figure out what I was just explaining. |
I am not saying the 'last 5' method is perfect. In fact I think showing only the last 5 is a poor limitation. I am saying the concept of showing what prices people have been willing to buy at, ie any selling history at all is more useful than the concept of showing what prices people want to sell for. Irrespective of any other characteristic of the market, that is a plus in its favor. An ideal system would have a mix of both, but in a 1 to 1 comparison selling history comes ahead of in-stock prices. Admittedly, it's a plus in its favor for sellers, not necessarily buyers, so I suppose one's mileage may vary.
I've been on other games where they don't show you any selling history. You see 5 items on sale for 5000 to 6500. Are those actual reasonable costs that someone may eventually buy at? Or will people only buy at 2000 and some shmuck posted his at 6500, thus staying on the market long enough for other shmucks to try to undercut him, while the reasonably priced stuff moves invisibly through the market when you're not looking? As a buyer seeing those prices, is it reasonable to wait until you see 2000 if you don't know that's its moving price, or should you go ahead and buy it at the 150% markup, again not knowing if it's possible to get a better deal? It's not such a problem with popular commodities, but the rarer something is the tougher it is to get a bead on its price.
There's a difference between posting something at a premium and being patient enough to wait for someone to grab it at that price (though with the way the City market works even that's not a hot idea) and posting it so high, inadvertently or not, that nobody would ever be willing to put money down for it.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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False. The 5-sale limit only provides the illusion of information. Since it's so easily manipulated it's actually worse than useless.
| I am saying the concept of showing what prices people have been willing to buy at, ie any selling history at all is more useful than the concept of showing what prices people want to sell for. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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Sure, and if the market only showed the top 5 in-stock prices that would also be less than helpful. It's a crap limitation and we should be able to see longer selling histories. That doesn't mean selling history is bad.
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Originally Posted by Venture
False. The 5-sale limit only provides the illusion of information. Since it's so easily manipulated it's actually worse than useless.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Pretty much this. Wentworth's is the games PvP. And it's all about making change off the "gotta have it now" folks and people who don't understand how this particular interface or a blind auction works.|
Originally Posted by Fritzy
There's a sucker shopping at WW every minute and so far WW's been great for sending them and their willingness to overpay straight to my offerings to the tune of 12.5bn inf and counting....thank you very much.
For purchases, I use AE tickets; Reward Merits and A-Merits far, far more often than the auction house. |
The one positive thing I will say about this system: it actually disincentivizes afk price barking which other games' common areas seem to be rife with.
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That's not true. I would be inclined to agree if you're referring to salvage, however. The last 5 prices on recipes and IO's, however, can give you a ton of information. |
Originally Posted by Venture
False. The 5-sale limit only provides the illusion of information. Since it's so easily manipulated it's actually worse than useless.
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If something is generally selling for 20 mil., and you see just one of the prices sold at 8 mil., this tells you a) a marketeer has been putting these things up for sale for 7.5 million, and everyone did the sheep thing, and paid 20 mil., because that's what they figured it was going for. Someone figure it out, and what will happen now, is that people are going to bid MUCH less than 20 mill., and prices will drop a lot. Then you, as a bidder, will bid 5 million, because you know that after the stuff that's already prices gets sold off, all the marketeers will realize the jig is up, and dump their wares for next to nothing.
That's a heck of a lot of info from the last 5 buyers, and I see it almost every day - and I rarely market any more.
I don't get why people don't start bidding for an IO at 1/2 or 2/3's the "going price" and up their bids by a million until they buy it? But I digress... point is, there is a lot of info to be had from the last 5 buys.
It'd be kind of nice if it kept a running average of purchase price for each item.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Wentworth's is a PvP game. It's actually one of the worst player selling systems I've seen in any game in terms of creating an efficient market.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I'm not wild about the AH, but I don't have any major complaints about it. It gets the job done, and I've gotten a lot of enjoyment from it. Seems to me that most of the real anger directed against the market is based on assumptions regarding the motivations of other players. I don't waste my time worrying about that. There's no way to know, and I can't think of a reason to care.
The last 5 isn't quite as easy to manipulate as some people seem to think. Try to manipulate the last five prices of the PvP +Def IO. Can't be done. Or an item that trades constantly, like alchemical gold. You can change it, sure, but try to make your changes stick for a full hour. I don't think you can. And it's much easier to change the price up than to change it down. And every forced change will cost you something.
There are plenty of ways the market could be changed. Some would be improvements. Some might turn out to matter less than you'd hope. Overall I'd say it's good enough, and not worth the effort of trying to improve. (Though I do miss the old horizontal layout, and I think there is still a bug with activating a mouse-click activity while dragging items).
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
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My problem is that the last 5 transactions is only handy for "low traffic" items. As soon as you get 5 or more in the same day, it gives you *no* idea as to how the market is the items, unless you spend a lot of time looking at the market. Because for all you know, those last 5 sales happened 2 minutes before you looked, and it was 1 person doing a bulk buy.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
That's not true. I would be inclined to agree if you're referring to salvage, however. The last 5 prices on recipes and IO's, however, can give you a ton of information.
If something is generally selling for 20 mil., and you see just one of the prices sold at 8 mil., this tells you a) a marketeer has been putting these things up for sale for 7.5 million, and everyone did the sheep thing, and paid 20 mil., because that's what they figured it was going for. Someone figure it out, and what will happen now, is that people are going to bid MUCH less than 20 mill., and prices will drop a lot. Then you, as a bidder, will bid 5 million, because you know that after the stuff that's already prices gets sold off, all the marketeers will realize the jig is up, and dump their wares for next to nothing. That's a heck of a lot of info from the last 5 buyers, and I see it almost every day - and I rarely market any more. I don't get why people don't start bidding for an IO at 1/2 or 2/3's the "going price" and up their bids by a million until they buy it? But I digress... point is, there is a lot of info to be had from the last 5 buys. |
Seeing 1 item up there for 1/2 the price of the others?
All that tells me is that the seller put theirs up for *considerably* less than the rest of the sellers.
What is the going rate for the items though?
Now if 2 or 3 of the last 5 are at less than 1/2 the price of the others, it does infer that the value of the item higher than it should be.
A "running average" would be handy though.. even if it is only updated daily, it would still give a "new entrant" to WW some idea as to the items worth.
Personally... i prefer either the "big space faring MMO" method, where you can see all the prices in front of you, and whatever price you pay, the money goes to the *lowest* applicable seller there, or the more traditional "AH" style of where you can decide how long stuff is listed for, and the ability to either bid on it, or to buy it outright.
My stance on the market I think is worse than the last time a post like this came-up. The current system is too easy to manipulate, which is facilitated by the limited sales history.
Shortly after CoH went F2P, a person I know a little IRL had been playing for a little bit. He had been trying to make some IO's for himself was getting very frustrated with the market. He was just trying to make some standard level 30 IO's he had been saving, but he was having a very difficult time obtaining just some of the common salvage. Being a new player, he was having a hard time spending millions to get all of the salvage he needed (he had some on-hand, but not nearly enough). There were several different pieces he needed - all were expensive but some were blatant monopolies and market manipulations. Some pieces were in very short supply (only about 20 on the market) and were selling for over a million per piece. Again, this for common salvage.
Best I could suggest to him was he'd probably have to do the AE Farming thing, since that was the popular response the last time I tried to debate salvage prices on the forums. I don't think he did it though, since like me he hates mindless farming.
Now that I think about it, I haven't seen him online for a long time... I'll have to ask him, when I see him next, if he's still playing or if he quit.
How is it bad that people can manipulate the market? It seems like some people feel that it's a problem when you can't get exactly what you want for exactly what you were initially planning to pay, right now. The fact that you might occasionally have to adjust your expectations or, heaven forfend, use a bit of strategy makes it all the more interesting than if it were a simple auction house.
Not talking about IO's, inventions, or anything else - just Wentworth's.
I've been using it a lot lately and I like it. I don't have to know how much something should be worth. I can sell lots of stuff in one place instead of having to go to stores.
The only issue I have with it is that it becomes busy and I have to wait to finish selling or getting my influence.