It's getting worse (new content)
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-01-02 13:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Not true, we had that choice in 1-20 Praetoria. Player actions mattered then, not just dialogue loops, but actual choices with actual consequences. You felt like a real participant in that world. Not the center of the universe, since your toon was just a small fish compared to Cole and his goons, but at the very least, you were the center of YOUR little story. You made a difference.|
Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
I never understood this argument.
Throughout this whole game we have never had a choice (no MMO offers you a real choice as far as I know). |
Do you side with the ruthless vigilante that just saved your life or the well-intentioned rebel that just tried to get you killed? You just found out the government is using the city's water treatment facilities to slip drugs into the water supply, will you blow it up and free the people, even knowing they'll be forced to consume radioactive water for months because of your actions?
And then they stopped. Why did they stop? Why isn't the new content like Praetoria? And why isn't Praetoria being made into a 1-50 experience?
Going Rogue is the prototype of my ideal kind of MMO, one with a strong, solid, well written solo content while still inserted in a community shared world - meaning I can team whenever I want, but if I want to solo it won't feel much different from a decent single player game.
The opener is right, there's been a serious drop in the quality of the game's content in the last 18 months or so, even as the graphics improved. First Ward and the SSAs are nothing like Praetoria. No real choice or branching paths, just one big corridor that doesn't even feel satisfying enough to walk through.
Energizing_Ion, you want to know why this argument is used so often? Because we're not just venting air, we actually *know* Paragon Studios can do better. They have in the past, and I'm hoping they will again in the future.
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To a point. The problem is that those choices cannot really have consequences beyond the story arc itself, because the game cannot factor such decisions into the ongoing story long term. Praetoria had some factors that made it easier for the devs to do this sort of thing. First, many of the choices lead to morality decisions which ultimately connect to the alignment choice you make upon leaving Praetoria. This is one of the rare choices you can make that in effect "changes the world" for the player, because it puts you into a different faction. Its the primary bifurcation within the game as a whole.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Not true, we had that choice in 1-20 Praetoria. Player actions mattered then, not just dialogue loops, but actual choices with actual consequences. You felt like a real participant in that world. Not the center of the universe, since your toon was just a small fish compared to Cole and his goons, but at the very least, you were the center of YOUR little story. You made a difference.
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The second thing is precisely because you must leave Praetoria, they could write in consequences for your actions that had no major repercussions on the future stories your character would face, because your character would leave Praetoria behind. So there were less strings attached to those options, less chance of having to retread past decisions.
I wouldn't say the devs were moving along this path and then stopped. I think this sort of thing was always something that worked logistically better in Praetoria, so the devs tended to focus that sort of thing within Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Not true, we had that choice in 1-20 Praetoria. Player actions mattered then, not just dialogue loops, but actual choices with actual consequences. You felt like a real participant in that world. Not the center of the universe, since your toon was just a small fish compared to Cole and his goons, but at the very least, you were the center of YOUR little story. You made a difference.
.... |
Just a quick note; I briefly read what Arcanaville said in reply to you and would agree for the most part.
Also, if I remember correctly, doesn't First Ward nullify one of your "choices" in the 1-20 content? Meaning; even if you freed Katie, she goes back into the Seer Network?
But what I was going at for the whole "no real choice" is that even in Praetoria I only have 2 choices....why can't I make a deal with x but still blow up y?
I will agree I liked the choices that we had in the 1-20 Praetorian lvl range but...just in general I can't make a choice that isn't "baked into" the game is what I was getting at I guess.
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Unless you were a Responsibility Loyalist.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Not true, we had that choice in 1-20 Praetoria. Player actions mattered then, not just dialogue loops, but actual choices with actual consequences.
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Something funny has been going on with City of Heroes since about City of Villains onward at least, and probably dating as far back as the Hollows and Striga - as the scale of the story grows larger, the scope of the word grows smaller. I'd liken it to trying to fly up high enough to see the entire city, but losing most of it to the draw distance until all you see are War Walls and darkness. You know it's "something big," but there really isn't much of a world to be seen for it to be in.|
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
For me the problem is that for each zone remake or new zone since faultline they've only put a single storyline through the whole thing and rushed it horribly.
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With the Well of the Furies and the Praetorian invasion and hints of an invasion by Rularuu or the Battalion, the scale of the story is greater than ever. The power of the gods, planet-destroying aliens, dimension-eating entities... Yet there is less and less of a consistent, persistent world to tie all of these set piece plot points together. Things just happen with very little context of the greater world around them, almost as if a world does not exist outside of the particular story we're dealing with.
I have a question for our writers - with Praetorians invading Earth and bringing vastly superior technology with them, what is the reaction of the Rikti, and more specifically the Lineage of War? Do they see the Praetorians as yet another threat? Do they see them as an opportunity to reopen the portal to their homeworld? And what of the Praetorians? Anti-Matter seemed impressed by the Rikti Bomb that Arachnos brought over, so clearly Rikti technology is of interest to Praetorian Earth scientist. So why is that never addressed?
I don't know if the team honestly no longer cares about keeping their persistent world consistent with itself or if they're just having trouble conveying this to us, but to be honest... The game is starting to feel like a series of levels in an arcade shooter much more so than the open-world sandbox with an overarching background that I found when I first joined in 2004. It's to the point that having an overworld at all seems pointless when it literally means nothing.
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Originally Posted by ElementalFury
I fear CoX is starting to follow the path that comics took, it wants to be dark, gritty emotional and angsty. The exact reason I never read new superhero comics as a kid.
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I don't mind saying that this darker and edgier writing has, for the first time in seven years, managed to turn me off caring about storylines with it in them entirely. The Origin of Powers was bad, but that was just a bad story. This style is not unique to any particular plot point or tale. It's pervasive in everything this depressing writer (or writers?) makes, turning me off storyline in general. Before, I had the particular stories I hated an wanted nothing to do with (Westin Phipps comes to mind), but those were specific stories. First Ward, Atlas Park, Mercy Island and the SSAs are on the verge of making me give up on story as a "thing" and just resolve to mash buttons and kill stuff, to hell with the explanation why. Because when I strongly suspect that I'll hate said explanation, why even bother?
You can tell a good story without trying to shock people, you can tell a good story without emotional blackmail, you can tell a good story without reenacting the dork age of comic books.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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While that is true, the very nature of the game (good vs evil) demands at least some branching to exist. For most of the game, heroes and villains don't share the same storylines, and each "path" leads to a different outcome. Going Rogue offered more than just Praetoria, it also offered choice, per-se, in the form of Tips missions, an interesting mechanic that has since been abandoned. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To a point. The problem is that those choices cannot really have consequences beyond the story arc itself, because the game cannot factor such decisions into the ongoing story long term.
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As of now, the game allows you to choose between four paths in Primal Earth - Hero, Rogue, Villain and Vigilante, as well as their four "twisted" equivalents in Praetoria - Power, Warden, Crusader and Responsibility. Unfortunately, most of the old content is incompatible with these paths (reducing them into either Heroes or Villains), and almost no new content is being released to build upon this mechanic. Even worse, for awhile the trend seemed to be co-op content, further reducing the content's branching from two paths into a single one.
Now, co-op content might be easier to deliver (half the work) but it's also much less satisfying for whichever side the writers decide to neglect. My main problem with blue-side SSAs is that they're essentially villain arcs being witnessed by heroes, unable to do a single thing to make things right. The iTrials and ITF, on the other hand, are basically "save the world" missions that villains are forced to participate if they wish to claim its tasty rewards.
Arcana, I understand the challenge of delivering near-infinite branching, but reaching at least four possible outcomes in the game is certainly doable, if not eight (including Praetorian paths). Through phasing, a high-level Vigilante could reshape Primal Earth into a very different place than would a high-level Villain, so to speak. At least, that's how I interpreted this mechanic when it was first launched, and a single, unifying outcome between all paths (impossible in Praetoria) would never be as satisfying. Good versus Evil.
Co-op trials offer the advantage of combining the entire server population and create crowded leagues, so it's perhaps the best practical compromise until multi-server trials are implemented. Solo, instanced, co-op missions, however, are much less justifiable in my book, particularly when the stated goal is to reach a "canon" consensus amongst high-level players at the cost of their own enjoyment.
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And we're effectively sliding into the whole "People will find something to complain about...everytime" situation.|
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
Flying over FW I noticed 4 main things I expected to deal with. The DUST base (nope), eltontown (extremely briefly), the giant swirling doom vortex (told what it is, don't actually fix it) and mother mayhem's evil hospital base (a single mission then completely forgotten). At the end of the story what have we accomplished? We destroyed half of the carnies, helped eltontown just a little bit, allowed DUST to move back in, reactivated the seer net and trapped one of our allies in that hell on purpose, left the swirling vortex of doom, left the DE and completely ignored Mother Mayhem's evil lair so that she can later enact her doomsday plan and cover it plot armor even though to stop that from beginning all it would have taken was a boot to the door and a liberal application of high explosives throughout the complex. So what did we spend most of our time doing? Running around trying to keep people from giving into anger ("give in to your anger...") and instantly turning evil.......and epically failing at that and needed to kill half the carnies in the process effectively taking them out of the fight for praetoria for good probably.
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I can understand wanting more threads of content through 1st Ward...that's all I really want, really. Realistically, one person (or team) shouldn't be able to save *everything* as things going on happen inside the world which is constantly ticking. Something is going to happen elsewhere while you're saving or blowing up whatever it is you're focusing on. That my character couldn't save all the carnies, stop MM's mental experiments from continuing, stop the talons from taking hold of everyone, exterminate all the apparitions, protect every last citizen and battle off all the forces of DUST in one swoop of story is only realistic. It's just one thread of story. In the real world, things don't always get resolved at the same time either (or ever, really) which could become an ongoing problem in the future (*hey!*).
That isn't to say I disagree with you, I just think you (and a lot of others posting) really just come off as insufferably whiny needy little mouths that will never be satisfied no matter what the devs put out. Rather than complain how angsty you think things got, you could always just make suggestions to add to 1st ward instead.
And I liked the whole angle of vengeance fueling the enemy because it fit so well with my character's concept. It fit in so deeply with the character's concept that, basically, 1st ward will be *HIS* little thread of content out of all my characters. He will be the 'savior' of Eltontown and who brought the Forlorn and Carnival of Light together, gained control of his anger and vengeance and put himself on the line to help who he could.
[SPOILER]
When I had to go talk to Cerulean about that book he took only to find out he had sided with the enemy, my character was so mad, he turned half his tray into enrage inspirations and was about to chug them and knock that blue ******* into the bottom of the tunnels. But he stopped himself from using any of the reds after listening to Cerulean's dialog and found out he was being controlled.
Basically, my character was so angry and enraged, he was going to rip Cerulean apart (heck, he might have even devoured him had he not gotten control of himself). Yeah, this has no baring on the actual story, but it felt like the fury and revenge boiling in 1st ward was getting to me and my character...but he saved himself from becoming apart of the talons, even if he did end up killing the mage either way.
I'd have been amazing if the devs could have directed the choices of 1st ward that way, either resisting your rage, piously ignoring emotions or surrendered to vengeance. Any choices would have activated different threads of content...like you might be given the task of infiltrating mother's mental ward only if you are dead cold to emotional influences. Or if you gave into rage, some of those apparitions might possess you, basically becoming an 'inner contact' that leads you on a task to resolve the swirling cloud vortex and confront the Carnival and/or Diabolique.
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Knowledge comes with a price. You were ignorant in 2004 and now you are not. You could say a lot of the above with the old mob groups. The Lost are always preaching in the streets, what do the Trolls have to say about that? The Hellions and Skulls are always battling for turf, so how is Vahz taking advantage of this? So on and so forth.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The game is starting to feel like a series of levels in an arcade shooter much more so than the open-world sandbox with an overarching background that I found when I first joined in 2004. It's to the point that having an overworld at all seems pointless when it literally means nothing.
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Which is something the devs should fix, not ignore and say "why aren't you used to it yet?"
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Knowledge comes with a price. You were ignorant in 2004 and now you are not. You could say a lot of the above with the old mob groups. The Lost are always preaching in the streets, what do the Trolls have to say about that? The Hellions and Skulls are always battling for turf, so how is Vahz taking advantage of this? So on and so forth.
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Again, this going into the "Gotta find something to complain about" zone.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Which is something the devs should fix, not ignore and say "why aren't you used to it yet?"
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Some players don't mind some things being left unsaid. It leaves room for player interpretation, morphing the world (just a bit) to conform to your characters rather than the other way around.
And what if people don't like the directions the writers take with certain threads? "WHAAA! I'M JUST GOING TO IGNORE THAT PART!" or "THEY WERE BETTER OFF JUST KEEPING THEIR HANDS OFF OUR CONTENT!"
Even if *you* aren't going to complain about it, *someone* will. There's always going to be someone in the position you view yourself in. You can either think of it as a means to suggest improvements or complain/ragequit.
I gotta go with:
If rewards are what you're doing story arcs for, you will be disappointed every time you compare them to what you'd get doing something else in the same amount of time.
Do the First Ward arcs because you enjoy the story. Do them to make it easier to gain the defeat badges, if that's your thing. Do them because you want to challenge yourself against enemies that are a bit harder than the usual fare at those levels. Don't do any arc just for the merits.
The other things you've cited, OP, fall under the "some people like it, some don't, and nothing will make everyone happy at the same time" category.
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The problem is not that the arcs are less rewarding than TFs, SSAs, tips, or whatever. That's to be expected. These story arcs are less rewarding than other story arcs in the same range which are otherwise directly comparable. If they want premium accounts to pay for First Ward access, it should at least not give them less rewards than they would get in Talos Island.
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Originally Posted by White Hot Flash
If rewards are what you're doing story arcs for, you will be disappointed every time you compare them to what you'd get doing something else in the same amount of time.
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Excellent that someone understands the actual issue here.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
The problem is not that the arcs are less rewarding than TFs, SSAs, tips, or whatever. That's to be expected. These story arcs are less rewarding than other story arcs in the same range which are otherwise directly comparable. If they want premium accounts to pay for First Ward access, it should at least not give them less rewards than they would get in Talos Island.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Regarding First Ward:
I loved the look and feel of it, and enjoyed the story arcs. The now-familiar ambushes, NO. But most everything else. Also, as a zone, it has great feel, and is as empty as Boomtown. Bummer. And as good as it is, it strikes me as more solo-type content, both from the writing/arcs and the lack of others to team with. Now that I've done it once, I'll probably not do it again because in our fast-fast content world, it's kind of a pain to get there.
I don't care about merits/rewards, so that aspect didn't affect me. I really, really liked the stories. But I play defenders on x0+0, and I had a hard time there, so I most likely won't be going back.
--NT
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Yeah, I was lucky enough (it wasn't planned) to have my next Praetorian alt after FW's release be /Willpower, so that's what I ran First Ward with.|
Originally Posted by NuclearToast
I don't care about merits/rewards, so that aspect didn't affect me. I really, really liked the stories. But I play defenders on x0+0, and I had a hard time there, so I most likely won't be going back.
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My favorable impression might have been a lot different if not for /LOLpower.
@Mindshadow
I dont think I am being leetist or anything when I say story based content is mainly directed towards we who enjoy RP even if its only lightly. I am not saying it shouldnt have any meaning or be fun for others, just that when content is created with the story being the drive the dev team imo shouldnt have to be stressing over the reward per minute wowtard mentality which largely has no meaning here.
Why? because IF you want to focus on that type of play here you simply roll up a very specific farm build and go solo farm +4/8 man content whenever your itching for wealth.
Otherwise you play for.....FUN. Yep thats right. Fun as in enjoying the game for the mere sake of playing it is why you play coh each and every time.
So what do I think of First Ward?
Well from my handle you may guess Ive had a long time affinity for doc Vahz. My main TF leader on virtue is Demetrios Vasilikos, a character who in concept is a paragon protector with a DNA memory core made from a sample of doc vahz. The idea is the bodies advanced regeneration restored the mind to a pre madness state, and he is now much like a free doctor jekyll now driven to stop mr hyde.
So imagine how I felt meeting my alternate dimensional self, who though seemingly as monstrous as our worlds as the ghoul king( we have known this since GR so I hope that isnt a real spoiler by now), who is rather quite noble and honorble imo.
I wont get deeper into the story for fear of spoilers, but needless to say I had a very rich RP experiance there and my friends in the group as you can imagine found lots of fun ways to take it in thier view points. And more so I can go back via flashback even solo and re experiance a certain amount of the same satisfaction.
When I want merits I run TFs in a timely yet still fun for all fashion, when I want fun I play the game however I want to play it. I however dont want devs to have to worry so much on reward per time ratio for every new bit of content to the point it turns this game into a stale math based game like DDO has become.
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I maybe misread your post here, but if your soloing on a defender you should be using an offender build, and those rarely have trouble soloing GMs let alone normal content. Perhaps look into the defender forums for builds designed to function like mage tanks. I honestly feel they are probably the single most effective solo AT in the game. the things I have seen them do oh my oh my. You want a real Hal Jordan class green lantern build it is definatly in the defender at sets. though maybe also consider ruptors. nice with blaster primary, and def primes as 2ndaries. Really borderline OP when you think about it.
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Originally Posted by NuclearToast
Regarding First Ward:
I loved the look and feel of it, and enjoyed the story arcs. The now-familiar ambushes, NO. But most everything else. Also, as a zone, it has great feel, and is as empty as Boomtown. Bummer. And as good as it is, it strikes me as more solo-type content, both from the writing/arcs and the lack of others to team with. Now that I've done it once, I'll probably not do it again because in our fast-fast content world, it's kind of a pain to get there. I don't care about merits/rewards, so that aspect didn't affect me. I really, really liked the stories. But I play defenders on x0+0, and I had a hard time there, so I most likely won't be going back. --NT |
My problem is the writing, ever since the praetoria story started it's been nothing but dark depressing plot hole ridden crud. I do not like new atlas because the final part of the story goes "Oh well arachnos is invading now because the heroes of paragon have stopped caring and are lazy." Every single one of my heroes is offended by that. Every plot since GR has always assumed the worst of people. Ignoring the atlas park invasion. Not doing anything about the hospital where Mayhem tears girls' souls out to make herself immortal. A single person being able to hide A GIANT METEOR SHOWER FROM THE ENTIRE WORLD! Most of my SG refuses to do FW because it outright forces you into being a grimdark "for the greater good" hero and doing terrible things and then assuming you ignore the place where the crimes against humanity are happening that you even see with your own eyes. By all logic as soon as the vengence crap was settled the next thing any hero would have done is tear that place apart after actually living through what happens in there but instead the writers assume that our characters don't care and completely ignore it for many many levels.
Our SG's heroes are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../BigDamnHeroes
We don't sit on our butts until some blue jerk tells us were allowed to go. We don't ignore half of atlas park in flames. We don't care if 20 prisoners escaped we're finishing the damn job. We don't care if we haven't beaten Marauder in 15 minutes, we'll fight him for 15 hours or 15 days, we don't give up at the drop of a hat like the trials force us to.
Theres a reason the dark age of comics almost destroyed them, I just hope the devs realize that and slap the writers who are steering the game into being a depressing wreck. If you want super dark, gritty and depressing nightmare fuel, go watch Evangelion. I come here to be a hero, not Crazy Steve.
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
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agree fully
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Originally Posted by ElementalFury
My problem is the writing, ever since the praetoria story started it's been nothing but dark depressing plot hole ridden crud. I do not like new atlas because the final part of the story goes "Oh well arachnos is invading now because the heroes of paragon have stopped caring and are lazy." Every single one of my heroes is offended by that. Every plot since GR has always assumed the worst of people. Ignoring the atlas park invasion. Not doing anything about the hospital where Mayhem tears girls' souls out to make herself immortal. A single person being able to hide A GIANT METEOR SHOWER FROM THE ENTIRE WORLD! Most of my SG refuses to do FW because it outright forces you into being a grimdark "for the greater good" hero and doing terrible things and then assuming you ignore the place where the crimes against humanity are happening that you even see with your own eyes. By all logic as soon as the vengence crap was settled the next thing any hero would have done is tear that place apart after actually living through what happens in there but instead the writers assume that our characters don't care and completely ignore it for many many levels.
Our SG's heroes are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../BigDamnHeroes We don't sit on our butts until some blue jerk tells us were allowed to go. We don't ignore half of atlas park in flames. We don't care if 20 prisoners escaped we're finishing the damn job. We don't care if we haven't beaten Marauder in 15 minutes, we'll fight him for 15 hours or 15 days, we don't give up at the drop of a hat like the trials force us to. Theres a reason the dark age of comics almost destroyed them, I just hope the devs realize that and slap the writers who are steering the game into being a depressing wreck. If you want super dark, gritty and depressing nightmare fuel, go watch Evangelion. I come here to be a hero, not Crazy Steve. |
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I am not trying to be argumentive when I say that that is why there is a difference and often conflict between Rpers who focus on the Tidus of FFX style of its my story and it will go how I want it crowed, and the Lore based RP crowed.|
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
My problem is the writing, ever since the praetoria story started it's been nothing but dark depressing plot hole ridden crud. I do not like new atlas because the final part of the story goes "Oh well arachnos is invading now because the heroes of paragon have stopped caring and are lazy." Every single one of my heroes is offended by that. Every plot since GR has always assumed the worst of people. Ignoring the atlas park invasion. Not doing anything about the hospital where Mayhem tears girls' souls out to make herself immortal. A single person being able to hide A GIANT METEOR SHOWER FROM THE ENTIRE WORLD! Most of my SG refuses to do FW because it outright forces you into being a grimdark "for the greater good" hero and doing terrible things and then assuming you ignore the place where the crimes against humanity are happening that you even see with your own eyes. By all logic as soon as the vengence crap was settled the next thing any hero would have done is tear that place apart after actually living through what happens in there but instead the writers assume that our characters don't care and completely ignore it for many many levels.
Our SG's heroes are http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../BigDamnHeroes We don't sit on our butts until some blue jerk tells us were allowed to go. We don't ignore half of atlas park in flames. We don't care if 20 prisoners escaped we're finishing the damn job. We don't care if we haven't beaten Marauder in 15 minutes, we'll fight him for 15 hours or 15 days, we don't give up at the drop of a hat like the trials force us to. Theres a reason the dark age of comics almost destroyed them, I just hope the devs realize that and slap the writers who are steering the game into being a depressing wreck. If you want super dark, gritty and depressing nightmare fuel, go watch Evangelion. I come here to be a hero, not Crazy Steve. |
I am not trying to dismiss your feelings, but the fact is that there is an underlying subplot to cox that is still not fully clear to players, that clearly is meant to imply that even the most heroic, perhaps most certainly the most heroic of heroes in paragon are in fact unwitting tools to a greater evil.
The idea of registered heroes, organizations tied to origins found in city hall, and many other hints all show that unless you are a Batman type hero you may well be actually part of a conspiracy in history and scope beyond anything ever seen.
I believe that is why when you play content you need to accept your hero wont always be as heroic or bold or brave as you want them to be. You can spin it many ways, right up to and including that your mind has been altered by Statesmans mind ****** witch sister psyche.
Remember guys this aint marvel or DC and here the tyrant state and his henchmen rule. If you wanted to be a real hero you would of stood with crey.
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That's an....interesting take on the game - totally insane, but still interesting |
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
the fact is that there is an underlying subplot to cox that is still not fully clear to players, that clearly is meant to imply that even the most heroic, perhaps most certainly the most heroic of heroes in paragon are in fact unwitting tools to a greater evil.
The idea of registered heroes, organizations tied to origins found in city hall, and many other hints all show that unless you are a Batman type hero you may well be actually part of a conspiracy in history and scope beyond anything ever seen. I believe that is why when you play content you need to accept your hero wont always be as heroic or bold or brave as you want them to be. You can spin it many ways, right up to and including that your mind has been altered by Statesmans mind ****** witch sister psyche. Remember guys this aint marvel or DC and here the tyrant state and his henchmen rule. If you wanted to be a real hero you would of stood with crey. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Curious.|
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
I do not like new atlas because the final part of the story goes "Oh well arachnos is invading now because the heroes of paragon have stopped caring and are lazy." Every single one of my heroes is offended by that.
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When you're rushing from one point on the map to another to join your team on a mission, do you stop when you see an old man and a lady being mugged and help them?
When you hear people yelling for help or hear the magic pulsing of a magic sacrifice, do you drop what you're doing to help them?
Screw the 'no reward because they're grey' BS. Do you stop and help them?
Do you take fly or superjump so that you can get to missions quickly? When you *KNOW* there has to be at least 15 muggings going on between you and your mission?
When you arrive to a new zone and a detective contacts you, do you rush to him to find out what shady activity is going on in the area? Do you sit and listen to the police radio, jump to stop whatever crimes you see until the radio goes quiet?
Hour after hour, day after day, do you vigilantly pursue evil and wrong-doers at the cost of a social life, sleep or your personal well-being?
For *EVERY* hero you make?
To someone crazed like Thiery, that may be the expectation of being a hero. So yes, your heroes *are* lazy.
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But isn't this a direct consequence of a game world with virtually no persistence? Or, more precisely, persistance of changes to the state of the game world?|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Which is something the devs should fix, not ignore and say "why aren't you used to it yet?"
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For instance, Steel Canyon will have the same mobs on every corner an hour from now, regardless of how many times a Lady Grey TF causes an impromptu Rikti invasion there, even if said invasion provokes no heroic response. What would really happen is the Rikti would establish a beachhead, expand their foothold, and take over Steel Canyon one neighborhood at a time. The consequences for any of the villain groups established there would be significant. But such changes to the world's state are simply not permitted/supported.
Another example: notice how the Ghost Ship conveniently disappears of its own accord if nobody interacts with it. It doesn't really matter what the Tsoo might think of the Ghost Ship (or do about it) because any actions they might take would just be wiped away to make sure Talos Island is safely back to square one within a few minutes time.
The "reset to zero" mechanic is an intrinsic aspect of MMO design, deployed to insure that new players get access to the same Steel Canyon or Talos Island that older players have had for the last year (or eight). Consequently, the devs have no way to show how the various factions would react to anything, outside of major world-altering zone events. And even then, the outcome of the zone events are already hardcoded into the game world going forward, with no real opportunity to change that. When the Hamidon seedlings started dropping in the zone events for Issue 21, do you really think that anything the players did during that event would have altered the state of the game world going forward? No, of course not!
Deeper storytelling, in which cause and effect has any sort of wider (and/or deeper) impact requires persistence, which nobody has figured out how to properly implement into an MMO. I think the last time a major MMO had such a concept was Ultima Online, and the lesson learned there was that true persistence is to be avoided at all costs.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Yes, the devs put in endless respawning people being threatened and then blame you for not saving them all.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Curious.
When you're rushing from one point on the map to another to join your team on a mission, do you stop when you see an old man and a lady being mugged and help them? When you hear people yelling for help or hear the magic pulsing of a magic sacrifice, do you drop what you're doing to help them? |
If I could save everyone in Atlas and that was it - I would. But before I can save 10 the first one has respawned.
So it is not laziness, it is recognizing that it is a game and that these are respawning pixels.
If the devs want our characters to go out and make a difference - then they have to let us make a difference
At the same time, though, I do feel that the latter half of the story feels very rushed (from Cerulean onwards, mostly), and want to see more resolution to that. I also would love to see other elements of the setting expanded on, in their own storylines perhaps not necessarily related to the "main" one (or at best tangentially related).
Rather than cranking out new zones, or revamping them with one through line, why not continually revisit them and add new storylines, new contacts etc. It could be an ongoing thing, rather than having to be an "all at once" sort of thing. I feel that this could/would really refresh older and newer zones alike.
Something like what they're doing with Signature Arcs, but as just additional Zone content (Zone Arcs?).