Getting harder and harder to badge.
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-12-22 14:32 in Badges and Gladiators
Quote:
All other badges have it pretty much written in stone the requirement in which to attain said badge.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Which is my point: the argument works with all the badges or none of them. If you don't want me to blame you for not being able to acquire that one badge, then I would expect contrawise for you not to blame other people for being unable to get badges you could get.
There are people who believe its perfectly fine to dismiss any concern about anything acquirable in this game on the presumption that the fact they have it means there's no problem by definition. I have nothing but contempt for that attitude, and I have no problem using Bug Hunter or anything else to express my contempt for that attitude. I personally don't feel any sense of superiority for possessing Bug Hunter: I've been on both sides of having and not having Bug Hunter, and I've defended that badge throughout that entire time as being interesting, but not proof of anything in particular from a gaming perspective. However, to the extent that someone believes their in-game accomplishments give them the right to judge other people's, I don't feel particularly bad about denigrating theirs relative to mine. Turnabout is fair play. |
Bughunter does not, even sites such as wiki and Badgehunters have a hard time finding a requirement for this badge other than devs discretion. No badge should be awarded in such a way, it leads to distrust, if this badge was for all to gain, put the requirements out there for all to see, not just hand it out willy-nilly and expect people to recognise it as a legitimate badge to get.
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Slazenger, Area51, Area53, Area54, Erruption, Mind Plague, Thresher, Sheath, Broadside, Debt
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I agree. I think a lot of people do.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
All other badges have it pretty much written in stone the requirement in which to attain said badge.
Bughunter does not, even sites such as wiki and Badgehunters have a hard time finding a requirement for this badge other than devs discretion. No badge should be awarded in such a way, it leads to distrust, if this badge was for all to gain, put the requirements out there for all to see, not just hand it out willy-nilly and expect people to recognise it as a legitimate badge to get. |
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That is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. That is why you don't like it. That does not bear on whether I got it using methods anyone else could have used. I have my own reasons for objecting to the design of other badges, which you are equally free to debate. But if you specifically choose to use the argument that if you can get it everyone else should, my assertion stands that this badge is not an exception.
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Originally Posted by Slazenger
All other badges have it pretty much written in stone the requirement in which to attain said badge.
Bughunter does not, even sites such as wiki and Badgehunters have a hard time finding a requirement for this badge other than devs discretion. No badge should be awarded in such a way, it leads to distrust, if this badge was for all to gain, put the requirements out there for all to see, not just hand it out willy-nilly and expect people to recognise it as a legitimate badge to get. |
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Ya, I can accept that I might not have been the first one to find this particular exploit or the first to report it. Mine required no special setup nor purchasing nor timing issues, from what I can recall. It appeared to be something that just got overlooked in the process of implementing Invention Salvage. I do remember that it got fixed relatively quickly after I reported it though. It was one of those, "DUH!" mistakes that all programmers can make.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Oh, it was simple. However this one had a tiny bit of tricky timing involved. Enough that the QA person returned with a dozen questions, and I included all that correspondence in my PM to Positron.
Edit: Seeing I know this particular problem was fixed: The "simple" explanation is that within 10 seconds of loading into the game it was possible to repurchase the Vanguard Salvage sack (actually anything you bought from the Vanguard tables). I had characters on test that could hold 120 salvage on the test server before issue 21, and on live I could hold 90 before I21. That +10 salvage is still on that character. Edit 2: Yeah, I know I might not be the first to give the information to the developers about this one, but I did give a detailed explanation. The QA person couldn't reproduce it without a detailed explanation of the steps even though I could reproduce it myself. |
However, I did make the mistake of mentioning BH. Regardless of anything else, I wouldn't have gotten it due to that one simple flub. *shrug*
I have Bug Hunter. I was given it for finding a live, and particularly game breaking, bug in Issue 17. I've only beta tested an issue once, and I'm pretty sure I'm not one of the devs' favorite people.
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
It just goes to show you that there are lvls of badgers. I am talking about how hard it is to get some master runs and some badges that require others to help me with.
You guys are talking about bug hunter.
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Hey, during 85 Keyes trials, I've helped 2 runs get Loves a Challenge and 2 more to get Avoids the Green Stuff.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
It just goes to show you that there are lvls of badgers. I am talking about how hard it is to get some master runs and some badges that require others to help me with.
You guys are talking about bug hunter. |
Keyes is, flat out, the hardest "Master of" badge out there at this point.
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There are levels of hypocrisy, yes. However, my original point was not about Bug Hunter itself, but about the fact that the argument that if someone can get a badge there must be no problem with it is a bad argument. Its not even an argument so much as it is random handwaving.
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
It just goes to show you that there are lvls of badgers. I am talking about how hard it is to get some master runs and some badges that require others to help me with.
You guys are talking about bug hunter. |
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/em boggle|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
There are levels of hypocrisy, yes. However, my original point was not about Bug Hunter itself, but about the fact that the argument that if someone can get a badge there must be no problem with it is a bad argument. Its not even an argument so much as it is random handwaving.
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Hardly handwaving when compared to the other self serving excuses for arguments presented here. I mean the badges are too difficult to get when people do so on a regular basis ?
I will give you this there are levels of hypocrisy and irony as well
But back at the O.P. here are a few numbers for you. Prior to going rogue roughly 50% of the badges where impossible to obtain on any particular character, now it is down to around 8 %.
If you want to talk about truly impossible to obtain badges, that arent clones of non praetorian badges they are down to less than 1%.
The rest of this thread has been people complaining that they don't want to do whats needed to gain a badge or badges. What is worse they completely fail to appreciate that there are people that enjoy overcoming a challenge more than revving up a counter that has been reduced to meaninglessness.
*shrug*
There's 'overcoming a challenge' and there's 'attempting to convince 10-20+ random strangers to engage in tedious, annoying behaviour so that you can get a specific collection of pixels on your virtual trophy wall'. My playtime is far more limited than it used to be, and my handful of attempts at Strong and Pretty were enough to basically turn me off MoITrial badges for good. And from what I understand, that one's not even all that hard to get... with time for practice and repeated attempts. Something that I don't exactly have an abundance of at the moment.
Some of the badges I don't have yet (just hit 1000 the other night) are simply things I haven't gotten around to yet. Possibly incredibly tedious things, but that's not a big deal- if I want the badge, I do the things. But badges that require mass coordination of people doing things that run counter to the actual goal of what most of them are there to do (unless, of course, it's specifically a badge run...) is... uhm... well, let's just say 'challenge' isn't the first word that comes to mind.
"A soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head." Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
MA Arcs: #12285, "Small Fears", #106553, "Trollbane", #12669, "How to Survive a Robot Uprising"
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I do believe there are levels of badgers like there are levels of farmers or any other subset of players, really.|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
It just goes to show you that there are lvls of badgers. I am talking about how hard it is to get some master runs and some badges that require others to help me with.
You guys are talking about bug hunter. |
The Bug Hunter was a tangent. I do not have Bug Hunter and most badgers I know do not consider it an attainable goal since the requirements (as it has been pointed out before in this thread) have never been laid out.
As for the topic at hand, yes there are badges that require tremendous amount of coordination but at the same time, those badges encourage the players that are looking for them to develop certain features on their characters which is likely considered a good thing by the devs.
I mean would I have even considered getting all Destinies to T4 on my main toon (DM/Regen) were it not for some MO (UG/Keyes/MoM to name them)? Certainly not.
Am I glad I did in the grand scheme of things and not only for MO Runs? You bet I am.
Noone's forcing anyone to play the badge game, like noone's forcing anyone to engage in AE writing or any other side activity in the game.
MO runs are a challenge and that challenge begins with forming a team that has a shot at jumping through the hoops that the devs are putting out for the badges. All those hoops are not necessarily as elegant as they could be, but they can be jumped through.
To go back to Keyes: I wouldn't go as far as saying that Incandescence trivializes Avoid the Green Stuff but it makes it leaps and bounds easier than it used to be.
Yes it requires people to coordinate efforts (ie not be spastic and trust each other) but since it is the goal of MO runs in the first place, that doesn't particularly shock me. It also makes 4 or 5 people responsible as opposed to 12+, which limits the chance for a snafu (it does put some pressure on those guys but since they use the power, they know others rely on them).
Personally, I would rather have to jump through these hoops than to have to say hi to a round shoulder pads Rikti Chief or a Sapper for X amount of time while I sleep, or to log in and out of RV over an extended amount of time, near a pet station to control him over and over again.
In short, difficult active badges are good to have in my opinion but there is room for improvement on the implementation of some.
@Viper Kinji
Currently working on:
Turtle Snapper - SD/MA/Ice Tanker
I've been running Friday nite badge runs on freedom for a good two months now. A bunch of us have been getting the MO's together.
On Sunday I ran an arena badge thingamabob, and believe it or not, people showed, we all got pentad and a couple of others.
I think if you post interest, give a definitive time/date people will show. Granted, I've got a good vibe going with a lot of excellent players. Kinji being one of them. That's important.
The remaining PVP badges are going to be a royal byotch for me. Defenders aren't exactly pvp material.
As for keyes, I hates it , but getting them will be so much sweeter when it finally happens.
56 attempts later, Master of the Keyes Island Reactor. Bite Me, Anti Matter.
MoKeyes made me, on more than one occasion, want to reach through the screen and slap someone. While there were a few "legit" failures, due to someone making a legitimate mistake, which happens, we failed so many times due to people doing something completely avoidable, such as the squishy who got stunned, didn't use a breakfree, and couldn't move out of the beam, or the guy who used Return to Battle in the middle of the beam, or those many many times someone I didn't recognize showed up, screwed up the run, then "thanks for the trial, g2g" and I never saw them on a run again. I hate the "if anyone screws up nobody gets the badge" badges for that reason. I have failed them more times due to someone else doing something completely avoidable and, frankly, dumb than through bad luck or a legitimate "oops."
On the other hand, I finally got MoLambda this weekend. It's an incredibly stupid badge, but at least we only had to do it once. There was little chance that someone else could screw me out of that badge without deliberately griefing. I'd rather do a really stupid badge once than try and try for a badge that is, in theory, less stupid (you're supposed to avoid the green stuff, after all. It's not aberrant play to do so, and I try to avoid it even on non-badge runs.) but where my success or failure is dependent on the team's weakest link.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
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I can attest to this. A few of us, just before Christmas, nailed Green Stuff and MoKeyes after literally four months of trying (and failing) -- the most frustrating failure was when a player used a wakie right in the middle of a beam, and this was after AM's 3rd regen when we were literally seconds from success. But, during that final run when I saw that text on my screen confirming the badges, I literally yelped with joy, and believe I did a fist pump, or two.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Saint
As for keyes, I hates it , but getting them will be so much sweeter when it finally happens.
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MoKeyes has been proudly displayed on my badger since, and I don't foresee removing it any time soon.
Now, if I can only nab Deathsurge during the first phase of MoM, I'd be "finished" badging until the next issue.
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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...I have two badge hunters... Who probably wont bother with this in either case.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
On the other hand, I finally got MoLambda this weekend. It's an incredibly stupid badge, but at least we only had to do it once.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Change slap to punch and you know how I felt.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
MoKeyes made me, on more than one occasion, want to reach through the screen and slap someone.
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| While there were a few "legit" failures, due to someone making a legitimate mistake, which happens, we failed so many times due to people doing something completely avoidable, such as the squishy who got stunned, didn't use a breakfree, and couldn't move out of the beam, or the guy who used Return to Battle in the middle of the beam, or those many many times someone I didn't recognize showed up, screwed up the run, then "thanks for the trial, g2g" and I never saw them on a run again. |
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| I hate the "if anyone screws up nobody gets the badge" badges for that reason. I have failed them more times due to someone else doing something completely avoidable and, frankly, dumb than through bad luck or a legitimate "oops." |
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Bug Hunter is different though. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. That is why you don't like it. That does not bear on whether I got it using methods anyone else could have used. I have my own reasons for objecting to the design of other badges, which you are equally free to debate. But if you specifically choose to use the argument that if you can get it everyone else should, my assertion stands that this badge is not an exception.
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Using the "If I can, you can" argument-
Yes, if I run the Fortune Teller mission, I can get Spelunker. If you run the same mission, you can, too.
If I run across an exploration badge, you can, too.
Bug Hunter is awarded case by case.
If I find a game breaking bug - such as a slash command to auto level to level 100 and have platinum enhancements, etc and report it and get Bug Hunter for that, you can't do the same. You can report the same bug I just did, but they already awarded the badge for that particular bug, they're not going to award it again - unless I'm mistaken on that.
Either way, that's a badge I won't even get and I'm okay with that. I don't think it's fair to say that anyone can get it though - especially if it has to be awarded manually.
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If you believe that, then you believe the "if I can you can" argument is invalid which is my actual point. If you believe the "if I can you can" argument is valid, you've offered no reason why it shouldn't apply to all badges, and the argument itself specifies no exceptions or objective criteria for exceptions.|
Originally Posted by SolarSentai
Bug Hunter is different though.
Using the "If I can, you can" argument- Yes, if I run the Fortune Teller mission, I can get Spelunker. If you run the same mission, you can, too. If I run across an exploration badge, you can, too. Bug Hunter is awarded case by case. If I find a game breaking bug - such as a slash command to auto level to level 100 and have platinum enhancements, etc and report it and get Bug Hunter for that, you can't do the same. You can report the same bug I just did, but they already awarded the badge for that particular bug, they're not going to award it again - unless I'm mistaken on that. Either way, that's a badge I won't even get and I'm okay with that. I don't think it's fair to say that anyone can get it though - especially if it has to be awarded manually. |
How a badge is awarded is irrelevant to the assertion that "if I can get it you can get it" because the actual words say the fact that I can get it by itself proves anyone else can. If I actually believed that, I wouldn't comment on whether the mechanics of a particular badge that people have already been awarded are reasonable. I don't. But if the fact that other players have been awarded the badge is both necessary and sufficient to prove a badge's requirements are perfectly fine, then it would be hypocritical to invent ad hoc exceptions to that rule that favor dismissing other people's objections while preserving one's own.
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All I was saying is that the criteria to get the badge is not set in stone and is arbitrary.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you believe that, then you believe the "if I can you can" argument is invalid which is my actual point. If you believe the "if I can you can" argument is valid, you've offered no reason why it shouldn't apply to all badges, and the argument itself specifies no exceptions or objective criteria for exceptions.
How a badge is awarded is irrelevant to the assertion that "if I can get it you can get it" because the actual words say the fact that I can get it by itself proves anyone else can. If I actually believed that, I wouldn't comment on whether the mechanics of a particular badge that people have already been awarded are reasonable. I don't. But if the fact that other players have been awarded the badge is both necessary and sufficient to prove a badge's requirements are perfectly fine, then it would be hypocritical to invent ad hoc exceptions to that rule that favor dismissing other people's objections while preserving one's own. |
It can be awarded or not awarded based on the decision of the person who gets to make the decision.
Every other badge in game is completely on the shoulders of the player. There's a defined action that awards the badges.
I'm happy for those who have gotten it. I still think it's a cruddy badge though
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So what you're saying is that because the requirements for the badge are arbitrary, the fact that some people have it is not relevant to whether the requirements are fair, correct?|
Originally Posted by SolarSentai
All I was saying is that the criteria to get the badge is not set in stone and is arbitrary.
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I have no specific problem with that opinion.
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I guess that pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter, yes |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So what you're saying is that because the requirements for the badge are arbitrary, the fact that some people have it is not relevant to whether the requirements are fair, correct?
I have no specific problem with that opinion. |
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Actually I was being nice. There have been instances where MO runs I was on were blown by such mind-boggling stupidity that I wanted to reach through the screen, strangle someone, delete all their characters and get their account perma-banned.
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Originally Posted by Nericus
Change slap to punch and you know how I felt.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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this so many times!!!
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Originally Posted by eva destruction
actually i was being nice. There have been instances where mo runs i was on were blown by such mind-boggling stupidity that i wanted to reach through the screen, strangle someone, delete all their characters and get their account perma-banned.
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I don't know, it seems to me that there's a meaningful difference between Bug Hunter and other badges; Bug Hunter can be exhausted. There are, at any given time, only a fixed number of bugs sufficiently egregious to merit BH if discovered. Each character who receives Bug Hunter effectively denies it to another character. That's not the case with any other badge (AFAIK), since they're available in limitless supply. Players may or may not be able to get those badges, but they aren't competing over them.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you believe that, then you believe the "if I can you can" argument is invalid which is my actual point. If you believe the "if I can you can" argument is valid, you've offered no reason why it shouldn't apply to all badges, and the argument itself specifies no exceptions or objective criteria for exceptions.
How a badge is awarded is irrelevant to the assertion that "if I can get it you can get it" because the actual words say the fact that I can get it by itself proves anyone else can. If I actually believed that, I wouldn't comment on whether the mechanics of a particular badge that people have already been awarded are reasonable. I don't. But if the fact that other players have been awarded the badge is both necessary and sufficient to prove a badge's requirements are perfectly fine, then it would be hypocritical to invent ad hoc exceptions to that rule that favor dismissing other people's objections while preserving one's own. |
Now, I despise the "if I can get [X], everything is fine!" argument. I even dislike the "If I can't get [X], something is wrong!" argument. But I do think Bug Hunter is sufficiently different that considering it a separate class of badge does not necessarily make the argument hypocritical.
I'd still consider it a very weak argument, though.
-D
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Edit:
Seeing I know this particular problem was fixed: The "simple" explanation is that within 10 seconds of loading into the game it was possible to repurchase the Vanguard Salvage sack (actually anything you bought from the Vanguard tables). I had characters on test that could hold 120 salvage on the test server before issue 21, and on live I could hold 90 before I21. That +10 salvage is still on that character.
Edit 2:
Yeah, I know I might not be the first to give the information to the developers about this one, but I did give a detailed explanation. The QA person couldn't reproduce it without a detailed explanation of the steps even though I could reproduce it myself.
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