Getting harder and harder to badge.
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-12-22 14:32 in Badges and Gladiators
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Not only egregious, but also benefitial to players, and not so obvious that lots of people report it simultaniously.|
Originally Posted by Darkonne
I don't know, it seems to me that there's a meaningful difference between Bug Hunter and other badges; Bug Hunter can be exhausted. There are, at any given time, only a fixed number of bugs sufficiently egregious to merit BH if discovered.
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It is entirely reasonable to believe that no such bugs currently exist.
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You'd be wrong.
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Originally Posted by Ullikummis
Not only egregious, but also benefitial to players, and not so obvious that lots of people report it simultaniously.
It is entirely reasonable to believe that no such bugs currently exist. |
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Quote:
So you're saying Bug Hunter would be an exception to the rule that possession implies reasonable requirements, because its requirements make it an exception.|
Originally Posted by Darkonne
I don't know, it seems to me that there's a meaningful difference between Bug Hunter and other badges; Bug Hunter can be exhausted. There are, at any given time, only a fixed number of bugs sufficiently egregious to merit BH if discovered. Each character who receives Bug Hunter effectively denies it to another character. That's not the case with any other badge (AFAIK), since they're available in limitless supply. Players may or may not be able to get those badges, but they aren't competing over them.
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What the exception is, is irrelevant. That is what I said. The only way you could be in disagreement with me is if you feel you personally are the singular arbiter of what a valid exception to that rule is.
The fact that exceptions can exist mean its valid to discuss whether the requirements of other badges, while different, constitute valid exceptions to that rule, which also makes the rule itself essentially offer no guidance for discussion purposes.
You know, even Another_Fan agreed with me completely, albeit unwillingly and unknowingly, because this is not an easy thing to rationally disagree with, although I'm impressed at the level of effort being put into the attempt.
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No, I'm saying that you seem to be savaging a strawman. You're the one insisting that an argument based on non-zero-sum badges must be equally applicable to a zero-sum badge in order to be valid. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So you're saying Bug Hunter would be an exception to the rule that possession implies reasonable requirements, because its requirements make it an exception.
What the exception is, is irrelevant. That is what I said. The only way you could be in disagreement with me is if you feel you personally are the singular arbiter of what a valid exception to that rule is. The fact that exceptions can exist mean its valid to discuss whether the requirements of other badges, while different, constitute valid exceptions to that rule, which also makes the rule itself essentially offer no guidance for discussion purposes. |
I disagree. The argument cannot be properly applied to Bug Hunter because, unlike other badges, the number of "Bug Hunter" badges available does not automatically scale up to the number of characters created in CoH. Your ability to get Bug Hunter not only isn't an indication that I could do the same, it's actively preventing me from doing so.
Frankly, I think you're wasting your time trying to prove the argument is invalid when all that's necessary is to dismiss it as unconvincing. If that makes me the "singular" arbiter of valid exceptions, so be it; I'm sure the internet can stand one more person with a chip on their shoulder.
-D
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No, what I'm saying, which is an a priori true statement, is if the argument "if I have it there's no problem with the requirements" is true, its true regardless of the requirements of the badge because the actual argument says its blind to the requirements of the badge.|
Originally Posted by Darkonne
No, I'm saying that you seem to be savaging a strawman. You're the one insisting that an argument based on non-zero-sum badges must be equally applicable to a zero-sum badge in order to be valid.
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This is supposed to be a brain-dead straight forward true statement.
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| Frankly, I think you're wasting your time |
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Gets popcorn
The better to enjoy the indignant squirming.
The irony of Bug Hunter from the Devs' point of view is that the more of these they hand out the more they tacitly acknowledge how buggy their game really is. 
The concept behind Bug Hunter (as a reward to players for reporting serious, exploit-level bugs to the Devs) should have never been expressed as a public character-based badge in the first place. That implementation was fundamentally flawed for many different and terribly obvious reasons. The Devs should have figured out a better kind of reward to account for these things. An excellent example would have been a grant of a certain number of months free subscription to the game, the number of months commensurate with the severity of the bug as determined by the Devs. Almost anything like this would have been far more acceptable because it would have kept the entire idea of people finding bad bugs completely out of the public limelight where it belongs. There's a reason the Devs don't like to openly report exploit fixes - why on Earth they decided to break their own policy by granting public badges to players which only serve to advertise the need for such fixes is perplexing to say the least.
To me Bug Hunter is ultimately a sad footnote of a Dev "good intention" which ended up being expressed in a terribly ham-fisted and inappropriate way.
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To me, its an example of a badge that people have acquired, but just because people have acquired doesn't mean its requirements are automatically beyond discussion.
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Not so much, after all can you say how many have been handed out, and of those how many haven't been fixed ? |
Originally Posted by Lothic
The irony of Bug Hunter from the Devs' point of view is that the more of these they hand out the more they tacitly acknowledge how buggy their game really is.
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| The concept behind Bug Hunter (as a reward to players for reporting serious, exploit-level bugs to the Devs) should have never been expressed as a public character-based badge in the first place. That implementation was fundamentally flawed for many different and terribly obvious reasons. The Devs should have figured out a better kind of reward to account for these things. An excellent example would have been a grant of a certain number of months free subscription to the game, the number of months commensurate with the severity of the bug as determined by the Devs. |
Look at it like this they needed someway to motivate people to do lots of unpaid labor, that would have otherwise been very costly. They found a very exploitable labor force and gave them a badge for finding Exploits.
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You're not railing against "if I have it there's no problem with the requirements." You're railing against "if I have one badge there's no problem with the requirements of each and every badge in the game."|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
No, what I'm saying, which is an a priori true statement, is if the argument "if I have it there's no problem with the requirements" is true, its true regardless of the requirements of the badge because the actual argument says its blind to the requirements of the badge.
This is supposed to be a brain-dead straight forward true statement. |
You clearly see the two as identical, but I don't.
-D
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Actually, I'm doing neither of those things, which is part of your confusion.
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Originally Posted by Darkonne
You're not railing against "if I have it there's no problem with the requirements." You're railing against "if I have one badge there's no problem with the requirements of each and every badge in the game."
You clearly see the two as identical, but I don't. -D |
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Wait, what's the rest of my confusion?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, I'm doing neither of those things, which is part of your confusion.
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-D
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#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
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That I don't recognize the extreme nature of Bug Hunter, when I selected it specifically for its extreme nature, because that's precisely what you always select when you want to disprove an absolute statement which doesn't admit exceptions.
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Originally Posted by Darkonne
Wait, what's the rest of my confusion?
-D |
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No, I got that. I just think the fundamental difference between abundant and scarce resources make BH a different situation rather than an extreme case.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That I don't recognize the extreme nature of Bug Hunter, when I selected it specifically for its extreme nature, because that's precisely what you always select when you want to disprove an absolute statement which doesn't admit exceptions.
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-D
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#161865 - Aeon's Nemesis
It's honestly long past the time for this thread to die.
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1387 badges, and counting
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I guess you have every badge then.|
Originally Posted by Spatch
It's honestly long past the time for this thread to die.
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Or maybe 1300 of them.
Cause its not so easy for most of us to have 1300 badges....
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I really don't see how you can continue to repeat saying that there exists a badge whose requirements make it special, but that's totally irrelevant to an argument that says no set of requirements makes a badge special.|
Originally Posted by Darkonne
No, I got that. I just think the fundamental difference between abundant and scarce resources make BH a different situation rather than an extreme case.
-D |
I'm not sure precisely how you go about disproving a statement that says "I am false" with more than zero steps.
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I have still yet to see any opinion that changes my mind about a Bug Hunter.
My point was I never recognised the badge as it wasn't attainable equally and that it favoured players that were regularly invited to closed beta's.
I equate it to the same as being told that I am not allowed to do the brand new shiny I-Trial until 3 months after the trial goes live (you ever tried getting those MO's, when all the badgers have done them in the month after live, it's significantly harder).
So until someone can show me the way the dev's hand this badge out fairly, I'll stick with not recognising this badge.
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Why does it have to be "easy"? Can't it be a satisfyingly long-term and challenging goal?|
Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
Cause its not so easy for most of us to have 1300 badges....
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Because to me, that's what makes having a large percentage of the available badges fun and interesting, not that they were practically handed to me on a silver platter...
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Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
I guess you have every badge then.
Or maybe 1300 of them. Cause its not so easy for most of us to have 1300 badges.... |
"That which we obtain too easily, we esteem too lightly"
---Thomas Paine
Aside from a few posters who have been equating impossible with not obtainable by them numerically the percentage of badges anyone can actually obtain has been increasing.
Matter of fact the percentage of badges that you could call difficult is miniscule now < 1%.
I still thank you for starting a truly amusing thread. I mean where else could I get to see people complain about a "Disturbing trend in new badges" because they are difficult to get, for a very few extremely hard core badgers, and another poster complain that those badges killed badging for him, when every issue there are badges introduced that can't be gotten at all once their time passes.
Even bug hunter is available for those that want it badly enough. Of course if that's your bag I would recommend one of the publicly open bug bounty programs that will pay you cash for finding or fixing bugs.
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Quoted many times by now, but "AMEN" anyway.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I have been increasingly concerned about .... force non-badgers to do blatantly unproductive things.
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I've given up on getting all the badges on my main. This is mostly the "Stupid" badges I'm talking about. If I happen to get on a team that's trying for one of them, great, we try, we succeed, we fail, I don't worry too much about it if one of the other players does something that makes the attempt fail, but I've stopped wasting my time looking for them. Asking a team to go out of their way to make their own lives more difficult is on my list of the most ignorant things I've seen in this game.
Like was said, if I'm solo and I need to do something completely stupid, that's fine. But asking an entire team, or worse yet, and entire league, to do stupid things is just, well, stupid.
-D
I salute you sir...EXCELLENT POINT IMO