Getting harder and harder to badge.
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2011-12-22 14:32 in Badges and Gladiators
Quote:
On Triumph I had every Keyes badge except that one in just a couple runs, and then we started going after that badge specifically. After the third failure in a row, I foresaw exactly what you experienced, and suggested the strategy a lot of runs on Triumph now use. I suggested we park the league into the hospital and then send out the minimum strike team capable of taking out Antimatter. Doing so would basically be sending out the best goo-avoiders only, and would allow them to spread out so that their power effects did not obscure the ground making it easier for people to quickly spot the Obliteration patch. The first try we didn't have enough damage: we went a little too low (tried it with four). The second try failed. I believe the third try succeeded.|
Originally Posted by Spatch
Avoids the Green Stuff is arguably the most difficult badge to get in the game. As a dedicated badger, it certainly was the badge that gave me the most difficulty. A group of us, over a period of four months, tried every Sunday for the Keyes badges, Green Stuff in particular. We started late September. Finally got Green Stuff the Sunday before Christmas. I'd estimate we did about 40 runs of Keyes (having done 2-3 Keyes per week).
We were a team of people whose goal was dedicated to acquiring this badge, and it still took us ~40 attempts. There's almost no chance to get the badge on a regular Keyes runs. When I do Keyes now, I just laugh when I see Green Stuff fail, inevitably, usually on the first beam. |
I realized that with a full league going after Antimatter, your chances of success are based on the probability that the worst dodger gets targeted, and the fact that the more players there are the more difficult it is for many of them to spot the Obliteration patch. So using less players is generally better, although there are leagues that succeed with full leagues in play.
Another thing I didn't fully appreciate until I mentioned it to other players is that players do the wrong thing when the Obliteration patch is triggered. They look for the patch, try to figure out if they are in the patch, and then decide to move if they decide they are in the patch. They are trying to move away from the patch. That's wrong. The goal should not be to find the patch and run away from it. The goal is to not get hit. And the best way to guarantee you don't get hit is not to find the patch and run if you think you are in it: that takes too long and you could be wrong. The best tactical maneuver is to find a clear spot on the ground and run towards it. It doesn't matter where the Obliteration patch is, it only matters you move to where you know for certain it is not.
I've been told by other players that this makes the task of avoiding the green stuff a lot easier, because it eliminates the burden of figuring out if you're in the patch or not. It doesn't matter. Just "run to daylight" and you're good. Important to note: it always targets a player. So unless people are running and jumping all over the place, the aiming spot will never appear on, in, or over an empty spot on the ground.
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Amen. I'm stuck at 14/16 on the Dreamwalker badge. I've seen nightmares duplicated now several times over, but have yet to see Jurassik or Deathsurge. I see nothing "master" about what's little more than a Random Number Generator, and getting luck of the draw. I had the same idea as you, make it six, 10, or 12 out of 16. But all 16? Makes for a bunch of cranky badgers.
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
Dreamwalker is getting close to a breaking point for me.
Having to reset and farm the first mission for RANDOM arch-villains is tedious at the very least. We've been trying to get a friend on Pinnacle (@Catatomic) the Jack in Irons AV and we literally rest about 10 times last night and never got it. This badge is stupid. Make it "Defeat 6 (or 10) of Malaise's Nightmares to earn this badge" and it will be much, much more bearable. |
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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Also, mission-reset farming in general, for anything, makes me throw up a little. In my mouth.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
Dreamwalker is getting close to a breaking point for me.
Having to reset and farm the first mission for RANDOM arch-villains is tedious at the very least. We've been trying to get a friend on Pinnacle (@Catatomic) the Jack in Irons AV and we literally rest about 10 times last night and never got it. This badge is stupid. Make it "Defeat 6 (or 10) of Malaise's Nightmares to earn this badge" and it will be much, much more bearable. As it is, it's like the old "Cage Fighter" badge in Arena before map selection was available. Just load in, exit and load in and exit and load in and exit over and over until you get your explore badge. Blech. |
If something can only be reliably earned via that method then it's not worth having. (I'm willing to grant a sole exception for badges which are accolade requirements.)
@Mindshadow
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Obliteration is on a visible timer, though. I've only been on one run trying to get the badge, and we failed it towards the end from lack of coordination, but the way we did it was with a dedicated team using Incandescence to pull everybody out. I kinda feel like that's the best way to do it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On Triumph I had every Keyes badge except that one in just a couple runs, and then we started going after that badge specifically. After the third failure in a row, I foresaw exactly what you experienced, and suggested the strategy a lot of runs on Triumph now use. I suggested we park the league into the hospital and then send out the minimum strike team capable of taking out Antimatter. Doing so would basically be sending out the best goo-avoiders only, and would allow them to spread out so that their power effects did not obscure the ground making it easier for people to quickly spot the Obliteration patch. The first try we didn't have enough damage: we went a little too low (tried it with four). The second try failed. I believe the third try succeeded.
I realized that with a full league going after Antimatter, your chances of success are based on the probability that the worst dodger gets targeted, and the fact that the more players there are the more difficult it is for many of them to spot the Obliteration patch. So using less players is generally better, although there are leagues that succeed with full leagues in play. Another thing I didn't fully appreciate until I mentioned it to other players is that players do the wrong thing when the Obliteration patch is triggered. They look for the patch, try to figure out if they are in the patch, and then decide to move if they decide they are in the patch. They are trying to move away from the patch. That's wrong. The goal should not be to find the patch and run away from it. The goal is to not get hit. And the best way to guarantee you don't get hit is not to find the patch and run if you think you are in it: that takes too long and you could be wrong. The best tactical maneuver is to find a clear spot on the ground and run towards it. It doesn't matter where the Obliteration patch is, it only matters you move to where you know for certain it is not. I've been told by other players that this makes the task of avoiding the green stuff a lot easier, because it eliminates the burden of figuring out if you're in the patch or not. It doesn't matter. Just "run to daylight" and you're good. Important to note: it always targets a player. So unless people are running and jumping all over the place, the aiming spot will never appear on, in, or over an empty spot on the ground. |
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HAHAHA this is delightful.
Let me get this straight
There are 1366 badges in the game over the last few issues the amount available to any badger has increased by on the order of 1000 or at least many hundred.
Over this time period
- 1. 1 Impossible badge has gone from impossible to easy.
- 2. There have been added an enormous number of exploration badges that can only be called easy.
- 3. All the badges of an opposite alignment have gone from impossible to possible.
- 4. The old hardest badges in the MoSTF, MoRSF have gone from difficult to farmable on speed runs.
- 5. The newer hardest badges, MoLGTF, MoITF went to achievable on speed runs by accident
- 6. The newest very hard badges, Master of Apex, Master of Tin Mage have gone from impossible to achievable by accident.
Now we have two trials with marginally difficult badges that but have been reduced in difficulty since their introduction, and subsequent new badges that can be done by accident.
The Above constitutes a "DISTURBING TREND" ??
4 or 5 badges out of a trendline of 1300+ is not a trend, its a blip at best, maybe a dead cat bounce.
Well at least I have my answer to why badgers badge, you all really do like seeing that number go up.
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Troll much?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
HAHAHA this is delightful.
Let me get this straight There are 1366 badges in the game over the last few issues the amount available to any badger has increased by on the order of 1000 or at least many hundred. Over this time period
Now we have two trials with marginally difficult badges that but have been reduced in difficulty since their introduction, and subsequent new badges that can be done by accident. The Above constitutes a "DISTURBING TREND" ?? 4 or 5 badges out of a trendline of 1300+ is not a trend, its a blip at best, maybe a dead cat bounce. Well at least I have my answer to why badgers badge, you all really do like seeing that number go up. |
I mean seriously, this has been an entirely uncontentious thready until you showed up.
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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Man you just don't get it.|
Originally Posted by Spatch
Troll much?
I mean seriously, this has been an entirely uncontentious thready until you showed up. |
It hasn't been a contentious thread because its been a giant pity party. The people on this thread are whining, no two ways about it whining, about 5 badges out of 1300 + because they take effort to get.
Well somethings take effort. That's why they are called Achievements, or Accomplishments. It actually means something that you got them. All I see on this thread is people complaining that they have to accomplish or achieve to get an achievement or accomplishment.
Really its the litany of people that want trophies for showing up.
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Another side effect of parking people in the hospital is that you have people in a safe place you can designate to watch the timers and give warning signals to the other players. Players tend to get tunnel vision and so giving them extra warning ahead of when the timer will expire seems to help, particularly because the player may not be checking chat or the timer window more than once every few seconds. A few seconds warning noticeably improved player performance.|
Originally Posted by MagicFlyingHippy
Obliteration is on a visible timer, though. I've only been on one run trying to get the badge, and we failed it towards the end from lack of coordination, but the way we did it was with a dedicated team using Incandescence to pull everybody out. I kinda feel like that's the best way to do it.
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I got MoK long before Incandescence arrived, so I can't vouch for its effectiveness in actual play. As with most tactics, its less about whether it will work on paper and more about whether the coordination required meshes with the players in the trial at the time. "Do you have the right people capable of using incandescence properly" is a similar tactical question to "do you have the right people to avoid the obliteration patches and attack Antimatter?"
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Yes, it was the third try.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
On Triumph I had every Keyes badge except that one in just a couple runs, and then we started going after that badge specifically. After the third failure in a row, I foresaw exactly what you experienced, and suggested the strategy a lot of runs on Triumph now use. I suggested we park the league into the hospital and then send out the minimum strike team capable of taking out Antimatter. Doing so would basically be sending out the best goo-avoiders only, and would allow them to spread out so that their power effects did not obscure the ground making it easier for people to quickly spot the Obliteration patch. The first try we didn't have enough damage: we went a little too low (tried it with four). The second try failed. I believe the third try succeeded.
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Concerning Keyes..the smaller the league, the easier to get the badge IMO. We did a Mo run with just 12 of us (we tried smaller, starting with 12 and having people quit, but it would not let us continue with less than 11)
The "pet" strategy is also a very strong strategy as well (Have only "pets"..be it Lore, MM pets, Patron, whatever..attack AM and everyone else concentrate ONLY on avoiding the beam, so no attack "roots" you)
We used this before it was fixed and sent in the petition and were awarded the badge after wrangling with GM's that no one was indeed hit (they claimed someone HAD to have been hit, but after investigating determined no PLAYER was hit)
The "hospital" strategy seems sound, although I personally have never used it, or seen it used, but can definately see the merits if it needed to be employed.
Any badge, IMO, can be "gamed" to a degree, it just takes figuring out the angle around it. The "Avoids.." badge is probably the single most hated badge in the game, but is also one of the only ones were SPECIFIC strategies have been developed just for it, and its not even a mission/trial/TF/SF badge..its just a COMPONENT to obtain one of those badges.
I am not a big fan of some of the new master badges for the I-trials. It is fun trying to get a league together and figuring out what works, but after so many tries it just gets silly. Then you also have people who cant play the game much during those first few weeks when most badgers are going for the new badges and they get left out.
It is downright hard to try and get enough people to try for the badge after most badgers have them. The big problem is some of the new badges take well informed players to get them you just cant grab a few folks and give some info and get the badge easily. Especially with so many in a hurry no one wants to slow down a trial and work on a badge when normally you can just go smash and its over.
I would have no issue with these crazy badges if they would let you form a trial with as few people as you want. That way you could just run in with a few players and get the badges you need. I don't think this would be a big deal since there have been many who have dou'd and solo'd TF's, if my wife and me have dou'd almost every TF in the game I'm sure others can easily as well.
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You are all trivializing badging. Everything in this game is easy. I've always used badges as a measurement for dedication. It is now failing as that measurement because you all are complaining about how hard it is. Of course it's hard, if it was easy it wouldn't be worth getting. You can be frustrated, irritated, agitated, or down-right infuriarated but don't tell the devs to nerf more badges cause that makes everyone a loser and puts the game on easy mode. And if you wanna play games on easy mode, go get yourself a My Little Pony game and get outta here cause you're ruining it for everyone else.
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It has always struck me as a silly mechanic, that should a league drop below the minimum threshold (due to a d/c, a quit, a kick, or whatever), that the trial would cease to function. TFs don't work this way, so I wonder why the devs structured the trials in such a manner.|
Originally Posted by Kotchie
Concerning Keyes..the smaller the league, the easier to get the badge IMO. We did a Mo run with just 12 of us (we tried smaller, starting with 12 and having people quit, but it would not let us continue with less than 11)
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Originally Posted by Kotchie
The "hospital" strategy seems sound, although I personally have never used it, or seen it used, but can definately see the merits if it needed to be employed..
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Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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. . . There's a My Little Pony game!?|
Originally Posted by Dogma
You are all trivializing badging. Everything in this game is easy. I've always used badges as a measurement for dedication. It is now failing as that measurement because you all are complaining about how hard it is. Of course it's hard, if it was easy it wouldn't be worth getting. You can be frustrated, irritated, agitated, or down-right infuriarated but don't tell the devs to nerf more badges cause that makes everyone a loser and puts the game on easy mode. And if you wanna play games on easy mode, go get yourself a My Little Pony game and get outta here cause you're ruining it for everyone else.
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
. . . There's a My Little Pony game!?
Can you play as Derpy? If you can play as Derpy, I'm sold! |
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From what I've seen, anyone outside the hospital can be the target of the obliteration beam. Not inside.|
Originally Posted by Spatch
I heard that the Oblit beam can target even in the hospital. I was skeptical of the claim, since the hospital strategy appears to be one that has been successfully employed.
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The ONLY way to be a target of the Disintegration beam is to be in line of sight of Anti-Matter. So if you are a master mind, summon your pets outside of the truck depot, preferably behind a wall.
Everyone, even those in the hospital, will be affected by the Time Stop.
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That was my initial understanding as well, which is why I was skeptical when told the beam could target in hospital. But, I didn't know LOS was a prerequisite to being potentially targeted by the beam. Learn something new....
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
From what I've seen, anyone outside the hospital can be the target of the obliteration beam. Not inside.
The ONLY way to be a target of the Disintegration beam is to be in line of sight of Anti-Matter. So if you are a master mind, summon your pets outside of the truck depot, preferably behind a wall. Everyone, even those in the hospital, will be affected by the Time Stop. |
Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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I invented the fastest three-box Empath farm to get that badge at its original level of one billion points of healing. While running that farm I studied critter AI and power activation. My power activation studies eventually led to the Arcanatime theory (which I confirmed while farming Immortal, actually). My critter AI investigations eventually led me to help the devs fix a long-standing critter AI attack bug.|
Originally Posted by Dogma
You are all trivializing badging. Everything in this game is easy. I've always used badges as a measurement for dedication. It is now failing as that measurement because you all are complaining about how hard it is. Of course it's hard, if it was easy it wouldn't be worth getting. You can be frustrated, irritated, agitated, or down-right infuriarated but don't tell the devs to nerf more badges cause that makes everyone a loser and puts the game on easy mode. And if you wanna play games on easy mode, go get yourself a My Little Pony game and get outta here cause you're ruining it for everyone else.
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When I look at my Empath badge, I see a uniquely invented farm, the method by which everyone calculates attack chains today, and the current way all standard critters attack in the game. That's what one of my badges "measures." I believe I've earned the right to have an opinion on whether a badge's requirements make reasonable sense or not that doesn't question my appreciation for dedication.
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Originally Posted by SolarSentai
. . . There's a My Little Pony game!?
Can you play as Derpy? If you can play as Derpy, I'm sold! |
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This is a meaningless paragraph that does nothing to further the discussion. You can boast all you want but I will remain unimpressed as I've gotten the same badges you have... twice. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I invented the fastest three-box Empath farm to get that badge at its original level of one billion points of healing. While running that farm I studied critter AI and power activation. My power activation studies eventually led to the Arcanatime theory (which I confirmed while farming Immortal, actually). My critter AI investigations eventually led me to help the devs fix a long-standing critter AI attack bug.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
When I look at my Empath badge, I see a uniquely invented farm, the method by which everyone calculates attack chains today, and the current way all standard critters attack in the game. That's what one of my badges "measures." I believe I've earned the right to have an opinion on whether a badge's requirements make reasonable sense or not that doesn't question my appreciation for dedication.
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The only good thing anyone has said about badge nerfing is that it opens it up to newcomers and is less intimidating. Old badge hunters are leaving game so new blood is always a good thing.
I've gotten all the master badges so all the requirements are reasonable as I'm not the best player nor the best leader. I'm able to gather enough people to form a 24 person TPN, BAF, UG Keyes, or 16 people for Lam, MoM , lead them through and get most if not all the badges. Most often it's half people I know and half PuG. The people I know might be carrying the league but I doubt it. It's all about the AAR: After Action Report. If you fail, figure out what went wrong and fix it. If you succeed, figure out what was right and make it better.
My point is that if you can't get enough people together to get the badges that you want than perhaps it's your leadership that is lacking more than it's that the badges are too hard. Look inward before you look outward. How is it that I regularly succeed where seemingly everyone in this thread regularly fails? I don't know but I can assure you that I'm no Churchill.
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Actually, the point was that your assertion that people are asking for the badges to be trivialized is itself a worthless statement that does not further the discussion. To reinforce the point, I assert that the effort and accomplishment I've made in many of the badges I've acquired dwarfs anything you're ever going to manage to. Don't look down on others unless you want others looking down on you. As far as I'm concerned one invites the other.|
Originally Posted by Dogma
This is a meaningless paragraph that does nothing to further the discussion. You can boast all you want but I will remain unimpressed as I've gotten the same badges you have... twice.
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By the way, if you've gotten the same badges I have twice, does that include Bug Hunter?
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Badges have never meant dedication. They've always been a fun collecting mini-game. |
Originally Posted by Dogma
You are all trivializing badging. Everything in this game is easy. I've always used badges as a measurement for dedication. It is now failing as that measurement because you all are complaining about how hard it is. Of course it's hard, if it was easy it wouldn't be worth getting. You can be frustrated, irritated, agitated, or down-right infuriarated but don't tell the devs to nerf more badges cause that makes everyone a loser and puts the game on easy mode. And if you wanna play games on easy mode, go get yourself a My Little Pony game and get outta here cause you're ruining it for everyone else.
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PS. By the way, Empath being reduced to 10 million wasn't a nerf. It was bringing the badge into line with the design intentions. Positron once said that they were expecting a dedicated healer playing for 5 years to earn the badge through regular play. My Empath did exactly that: earned the badge in 5 years with dedicated play, without needing any AFK farms. You might want to trivialize the badge by farming it, but knock yourself out. Rebirth Destiny has done more to trivialize the healing badges than the developers bringing the badge into design specs.
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Badging is increasingly becoming less fun for me and I can see myself giving up on it and this is entirely due to the badges on the Incarnate content.
I used run very successful Master runs on Guardian before the Incarnate content came out. I'd organize a time beforehand either in game or on the forum and we'd generally start pretty much on time.
The Incarnate trials - especially the newer ones - seem to require an hour or so of set up even when they're not a Badge run. Getting seven others who wanted to work together to get a badge was tricky enough let alone two or three times that number.
Yes there *are* badge runs but they're not as frequent as the normal TF Mo's and with a higher 'standing around' quota and less likely to succeed.
I really don't think that badges on the Incarnate Trials have been thought through very well.
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I have an opposite opinion of the new trials (MoM/TPN)|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
I really don't think that badges on the Incarnate Trials have been thought through very well.
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I think the badges are exceedingly well thought out for these two trials, and hopefully these badges will usher in a new trend for the future. IMO, the new badges push to have the enitire league participate, which is fantastic. In addition, there are no badges that just one person can ruin for the rest either, which is outstanding. None of the badges are exceedingly difficult (although a couple do require a "together" league) and the badges reward you for actually doing the trial, albeit quickly, but for doing trial objectives just the same. Very well thought out.
I had to take a break after that. A week long break.
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