A pattern? anyone else see it.
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-12-17 21:01 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
There are so many power sets now; we truly have an embarrassment of riches. I am a player who started back in 2004 (with a few years off in the middle), and I would estimate that I have tried fewer than 20% of the available power sets, and actively play less than 1% of them. I would say that no more than 1 in 5 new power sets interest me enough to try them out at all, much less pay for them. I save myself a lot of PP in the process by not being a power set collector. I am simply not curious enough to try them out just for the hell of it; frankly, I really don't have that kind of playing time at my disposal anyway.
I have paid for only one power set: Street Justice. And that's only because I've had numerous character concepts in the past that would have been based on a non-kick-oriented version of Martial Arts had such a power set been available. Now such a set is available and I absolutely love it. It is my favorite power set ever. The animations along with the simple combo mechanic are pure win for me. Sure, it is Yet Another Smashing set, but ohmygawd I can't tell you how addicted I am to Spinning Strike.
None of the other for-pay power sets call to me. Even Titan Weapons and Staff Fighting, as neat as they look, fail to connect deeply with me because I just don't have any characters I want to create based on those power concepts. It makes me wonder: for the folks who really, really, really want a power set like Staff Fighting (as in, they've been waiting years for such a thing), is PP800 really such a high price to pay? Street Justice was worth every Paragon Point I paid for it. But if these power sets are just curiosities, then maybe simple curiosity is just too expensive a vice for you if you're kvetching about having to pay $5 every couple of months for it.
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Given that healing is just damage with a positive number, I don't see any reason why a heal over time couldn't have been implemented on launch day. The only possible way I can think of to make it not work given what we know about the combat engine requires such a convoluted mess of shortcut spaghetti code that I shudder to even consider the possibility. I know it has some warts, but I refuse to believe it's that bad.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I could be wrong, but I recall Black Scorpion telling me that it required new tech just to make the "DoT go backward". This was not something our systems were capable of before.
Keep in mind that many mechanics are developed for other things, such as Incarnate content, which are sometimes used for things like new powersets. Generally speaking, we try to get as much use as we can out of new tech. |
Unless what Black Scorpion meant was that the powers team had to test such an effect to make sure it actually works as expected in all conceivable circumstances.
Now, Time Manipulation does include a few mechanics that we haven't had before. I hesitate to call it "new tech", since it's been possible to make powers react differently based on arbitrary conditions for quite some time, but it is the first set given to players that takes advantage of it so extensively. Part of it no doubt is figuring out how to balance a powerset that has variable performance.
Titan Weapons on the other hand required programmer time, which is a very rare and valuable commodity.
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Off the top of my head, HoT differs from DoT in the following key ways:|
Originally Posted by Tyrant_Protocol
It's possible DoTs are just that. A case where, in early development, someone made the decision that the tech only needed to be used to do damage, ever.
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- DoT requires a successful To-Hit roll. HoT ostensibly does not.
- DoT is mitigated by Resistance. HoT bypasses all defenses.
- DoT is +damage. HoT is -damage (i.e., a sign change).
- DoT is tagged as an attack. HoT is tagged as a buff.
Simply transplanting the DoT code from the attack section to the buff section with nary more than a sign change was, I imagine, the first thing they thought to do. But then all sorts of little code-interaction gotchas probably sprang up, requiring a more in-depth examination of the whole idea for all its implications.
I'm sure that, hindsight being 20/20, the devs now realize how tiny the intellectual leap is from DoT to HoT and would have, if given a chance to do it all over again, implemented the buffing code so that it supported HoTs without requiring a major bit of "new engine technology" be retrofitted in later.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
A quick search revealed that HoTs have existed in the game prior to Time Manipulation. The first is in the [Phase Shift] that the ghosts summoned by a Necromancy Mastermind's Soul Extraction power can use.
The second is [Nano Repair], as used by the Clockwork Lore pets. IIRC it's also used by the praetorian clockwork that the lore pets are based on.
Both are implemented exactly as one would expect them to be, and the same way as the Time Manipulation heal.
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Healing powers are marked for auto-hit to friendly targets (such as teammates). Temporal Mending is no different, so no new tech there.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
DoT requires a successful To-Hit roll. HoT ostensibly does not.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
DoT is mitigated by Resistance. HoT bypasses all defenses.
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The only irresistible heal I can think of (outside of special cases like Unstoppable's pre-crash full heal) is Siphon Life.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
DoT is +damage. HoT is -damage (i.e., a sign change).
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
DoT is tagged as an attack. HoT is tagged as a buff.
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Heals and buffs tend to be auto-hit, friendly, beneficial effects, but it's possible to hurt yourself (Share Pain) or your allies (Enforced Morale) even if the power is otherwise considered beneficial/buffs.
Likewise, attacks tend to NOT be auto-hit, and target enemies instead with negative "grants" to the HP attribute.
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In any case, Zwillinger, the healing-over-time in Temporal Mending works in identical manner to the damage-over-time we've had for years. The part that required new tech was the way it heals you more if you happen to have Temporal Selection on you--as far as I know, it wasn't previously possible for an effect to trigger based on whether or not the target owned a specific power.
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But the whole "owning a power" thing is just a more specialized replacement for mode bits which have been used for years. Time Manipulation could have easily been implemented using those, unless there is an engine limitation on the total number of them that can exist.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
In any case, Zwillinger, the healing-over-time in Temporal Mending works in identical manner to the damage-over-time we've had for years. The part that required new tech was the way it heals you more if you happen to have Temporal Selection on you--as far as I know, it wasn't previously possible for an effect to trigger based on whether or not the target owned a specific power.
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In which case, the new tech isn't really new for that power, it's just a workaround for the engine reaching its design limits.
Edit: The oldest use of the "own power" check I can find is Issue 18, when Ouroboros portals were changed to no longer have distinct powers for the hero and villain versions. Mystic Fortune uses it also, but didn't used to (it used a mode). It was also used for the inherent fitness change to prevent you from getting double fitness. So, reasonably new, but probably not done specifically for Beam Rifle / Street Justice / Time Manipulation.
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I consider the Necromancy ghosts a special case since their HoT only applies to themselves, and was quite possibly implemented by very specific bits of code. The necessary changes to the engine required for proper HoTs were probably first deployed for the Lore pets. It was then only a matter of time for that code to be exploited for power sets like Time Manipulation. But even the Lore pet stuff is "new" when put in the context of the game's overall lifespan to date.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
A quick search revealed that HoTs have existed in the game prior to Time Manipulation. The first is in the [Phase Shift] that the ghosts summoned by a Necromancy Mastermind's Soul Extraction power can use.
The second is [Nano Repair], as used by the Clockwork Lore pets. IIRC it's also used by the praetorian clockwork that the lore pets are based on. Both are implemented exactly as one would expect them to be, and the same way as the Time Manipulation heal. |
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Only because of where you set the endpoints. Start a mere two months sooner, with Issue 5, and its four new ranged and support sets take any pattern and toss it out the window...|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
Just in the time since I've been playing (Issue 6) up through Going Rogue, the following Power Sets were added (in chronological order):
* Thugs (not melee; Issue 7) * Electric Melee (melee; Issue 7) * Electric Armor (melee; Issue 7) * Dual Blades (melee; Issue 11) * Willpower (melee; Issue 11) * Shield Defense (melee; Issue 13) * Pain Domination (not melee; Issue 13) A pattern... Anyone else see it? |
Later on,
Gate
@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.
I had a great time playing with you!
So in talking with Synapse this morning, it wasn't new tech, but it was new mechanics.
Mea Culpa.
Either way...I'm having Korean BBQ for lunch.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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No. If the necromancy pets were special-cased, then the engine was horribly, horribly broken, and I just don't think it's that bad. The engine represents an entity's state as a block of values, and power effects modify those values. The 'over time' code is generic so that it works for any value the engine knows about, whether it's damage, healing, Endurance, To-hit debuffs, Knockback, etc. Probably even attributes where it doesn't really make sense to do so, but the code is consistent and likely doesn't even know which attribute it's affecting.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I consider the Necromancy ghosts a special case since their HoT only applies to themselves, and was quite possibly implemented by very specific bits of code. The necessary changes to the engine required for proper HoTs were probably first deployed for the Lore pets. It was then only a matter of time for that code to be exploited for power sets like Time Manipulation. But even the Lore pet stuff is "new" when put in the context of the game's overall lifespan to date.
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The powers system is designed to be generic and to process effects within its design specifications without having to make any actual changes to the code. I'd wager that 95% of the powers changes in this game never touch the source code, and don't even require a recompile of the engine.
Edit: Yum, Korean BBQ. Nom nom nom.
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And the mystery is solved!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
So in talking with Synapse this morning, it wasn't new tech, but it was new mechanics.
Mea Culpa. Either way...I'm having Korean BBQ for lunch. |
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Wait, the pattern being a 8-issue gap between those support sets and the next support set? An 8-issue gap that covered three years?
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Originally Posted by Gatecrasher
Only because of where you set the endpoints. Start a mere two months sooner, with Issue 5, and its four new ranged and support sets take any pattern and toss it out the window...
Later on, Gate |
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I hate you.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
So in talking with Synapse this morning, it wasn't new tech, but it was new mechanics.
Mea Culpa. Either way...I'm having Korean BBQ for lunch. |
But only in a non-personal way. I'm sick, and contagious, so I can't go out, and the only food to order in has milk products, which isn't good for colds... And Korean BBQ sounds sooo good.
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All I was saying is that using I6 instead of I5 as a cutoff changes what is otherwise roughly an even-steven split into what, a 3:1 imbalance? I make no pretense that the release schedule was "smooth" for lack of a better word.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Wait, the pattern being a 8-issue gap between those support sets and the next support set? An 8-issue gap that covered three years?
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Have a good one.
Later on,
Gate
@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.
I had a great time playing with you!
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Good Kimchi will clear those sinuses right up!
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
I hate you.
But only in a non-personal way. I'm sick, and contagious, so I can't go out, and the only food to order in has milk products, which isn't good for colds... And Korean BBQ sounds sooo good. |
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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I'd agree with Peter, mostly because all the bases are pretty well covered now. The only other conceivable melee set I can think of that isn't directed at a tiny niche market would be "Psionic Melee."|
Originally Posted by peterpeter
After adding all of these melee sets in a row, I expect it will be a very long time before any new melee sets are added at all.
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I'm hoping we get some new MM powersets (and the four-legged rig they've put together certainly seems like it could be used for a Beast Tamer MM!), a tech-style control set, and perhaps finally some regular water control and blast sets in the next year.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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That particular ability has been in the game engine since at least Going Rogue, and possibly earlier. It was used in a couple of instances, including specifically alignment affirmation.|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
In any case, Zwillinger, the healing-over-time in Temporal Mending works in identical manner to the damage-over-time we've had for years. The part that required new tech was the way it heals you more if you happen to have Temporal Selection on you--as far as I know, it wasn't previously possible for an effect to trigger based on whether or not the target owned a specific power.
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And a general reminder for the benefit of people not used to Paragon Studios' lingo: the Cryptic/Paragon Studios technical term for adding a capability or feature to the game engine itself is "tech." "Mechanics" are specific power effects comprised of those tech components.
Heal Over Time is a game mechanic. It uses Heal, Effect Over Time, and in the case of Time Manipulation "Requires Target OwnPower" to determine which heal effect gets applied: a standard one or a stronger one. "Requires Target OwnPower" - the ability for a power effect to require its target to have a particular power - is tech, although its unclear precisely when that tech was added to the game engine.
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Castle accidentally added Heal Over Time to Indominable Will during Issue 12 beta, when VEATs were being created. He did it by accidentally buffing player psionic Absolute value instead of Resistance. Because that effect affected Absolute value instead of Resistance, it basically healed the player. Because it had a duration, it healed over time. And because it had zero pulse period, it healed very very very fast.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I consider the Necromancy ghosts a special case since their HoT only applies to themselves, and was quite possibly implemented by very specific bits of code. The necessary changes to the engine required for proper HoTs were probably first deployed for the Lore pets. It was then only a matter of time for that code to be exploited for power sets like Time Manipulation. But even the Lore pet stuff is "new" when put in the context of the game's overall lifespan to date.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Tru'dat!|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Sanity is for the weak!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Either way...I'm having Korean BBQ for lunch.
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------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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Good Kimchi. Quite the oxymoron.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Good Kimchi will clear those sinuses right up!
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If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
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So did you have the Bulgogi?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Good Kimchi will clear those sinuses right up!
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Archery and Sonic Blast (not melee; Issue 5)|
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect
This is how it works:
* Dual Pistols, Demon Summoning, Kinetic Melee and Electric Control, which are not available by default to new accounts, were officially features of Going Rogue. * Time Manipulation was officially a feature of Issue 21 and is available to all VIPs. * Dark Control, Darkness Assault and Darkness Affinity are officially features of Issue 22 and will be available to all VIPs. * Beam Rifle, Street Justice, Titan Weapons and Staff Fighting are officially features of the Paragon Market, and must be purchased even by VIPs. * All Power Set Proliferations were features of their respective Issues and did not require purchase by anyone. Now, I see where the OP is coming from, saying "Hey now, why are all the melee sets in the Paragon Market?" But it's important to remember that the melee classes have had it kind of sweet in the long run anyway; there are not only more melee/defensive sets than any other variety, but the melee Archetypes have received more "new" sets over the years. Just in the time since I've been playing (Issue 6) up through Going Rogue, the following Power Sets were added (in chronological order): * Thugs (not melee; Issue 7) * Electric Melee (melee; Issue 7) * Electric Armor (melee; Issue 7) * Dual Blades (melee; Issue 11) * Willpower (melee; Issue 11) * Shield Defense (melee; Issue 13) * Pain Domination (not melee; Issue 13) A pattern... Anyone else see it? As far as new Power Sets go, there has been a disproportional favoring of the melee classes, and it seems that the Paragon Market is favoring them as well, albeit behind a cash curtain. They've already had their day in the sun, as far as I'm concerned. For a while there, I was worried all new Power Sets were going to be Market-only, but they put those fears to rest with the Controller and Dominator Dark sets. I doubt we'll never see another VIP-free melee set, but for now I wouldn't go so far as to say that we need another VIP-free melee set. |
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Good Kimchi. Quite the oxymoron.
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Added a couple that you missed there |
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Archery, Trick Arrow, Sonic Resonance, Electric Mastery and Sonic Blast (not melee; Issue 5)
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(admittedly Electric's an APP and not a full powerset, but still...)
But Guyperfect was talking about new sets since Issue 6, so really for that precise discussion, they should probably be discounted.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
I read that as he started playing in Issue 6 *shrug*
I mean, we have a heal-over-time aura in a way (or "anti-damage" aura) in Pain Domination. (Soothing Aura.) Half wonder, if it required new tech, if he didn't just "reinvent the wheel." (Yes, I'm aware SA is a toggle.)
Outside of game dev that isn't normally TOO bad. In game dev it can be very, very bad because design can shift so dramatically so quickly. From what I remember, stalking the forums and reading dev posts, there have been quite a few areas of the CoH code base that would probably be described as brittle, things they pine over and say "Man, if we could go back and do that over."
It's possible DoTs are just that. A case where, in early development, someone made the decision that the tech only needed to be used to do damage, ever. On the surface, the design of a HoT says "Take the DoT, reverse the damage." but there could be any number of events, triggers, etc. that need to be hooked in to the tech, and that could be one of the hurdles they had to jump. I have zero doubt in my mind that if they say they had to re-write some of the code, or even add new code to handle HoTs, that they're inflating the problem. I do hope though that in adding the new tech/rewriting the old tech that they did themselves a favor and tried to write malleable code that they can do rad stuff with in the future!
City of Heroes is a very old, very mature code base. Sadly, old and mature doesn't mean stable, efficient, or extensible. It usually means the opposite. The fact they've managed to teach this old dog so many new tricks in the last year or so is an inspiration to me and part of why I keep playing.
Now, excuse me, I need to get off this soap box before I fall down and hurt myself.