A pattern? anyone else see it.


Ad Astra

 

Posted

The way I see it, the powers we got for free were powers that were incredibly unique in concept. Stuff that we sorely lacked, and the game actually needed to round out powerset selection and try cover all bases.

Time Manipulation - We have no other powerset in this game that deals with time. The closest you could ever get to a time-based powerset would be Gravity/Kinetics, but that's a bit of a stretch.

Dark Control/Assault/Affinity - Control-based ATs have no dark powersets of their own. That's kind of a big gaping hole in terms of concept. The only other powerset that might work would be Fire tinted black, but even then, it's a stretch.


Whereas, the purchasable powers seem to be more refined and varied versions of powers we already possess. Stuff that's not really as necessary and can easily have another powerset or two stand in for it if you don't want to purchase this. Thus, it's justifiable to put a price tag on these powers.

Street Justice - Another fighting set. We've got Martial Arts and Super Strength, both with alternate animations, even.

Beam Rifle - Essentially Energy Blasts that come out of a gun. Again, you could just roll up any character with Energy and alter the concept slightly to, say, using gloves or some other piece of tech.

Titan Weapons - Lugging around a big old sword/axe/hammer. We've already got all three as individual powersets, so this one's probably the least unique of the bunch.


Staff Fighting's actually the only powerset I can think of that doesn't have something that can stand in for it as well, Dual Blades or Katana both being stretches. But what makes it not that unique is the fact that it's yet another weapon set, which will do smashing damage, which we already have tons of.

Again, this is only talking about concepts and not actual mechanics of the powers. This is the only real pattern I can see.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
To answer the OP, no, we do not have any sort of policy that melee power sets will be purchasable only.

There's a whole range of powersets we haven't explored yet, melee, defensive, support, ranged...I'm certain that as time progresses there will be a good mix of what's purchasable vs. what's VIP included.

That's really awesome to hear thank you

And Xzero45 above this post put a good spin on it that is probably the more reasonable reason why powersets get picked for pay VS free.

idk I just like melee more probably made my opinion bias.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ad Astra View Post
But there's a lot of other stuff in the game that isn't in the iTrials...
Oh, you're absolutely right. I was merely using the iTrials as one interesting data point because those trials routinely involve large teams (leagues of 16-24 people) where, thanks to larger sample sets to examine, you get a very interesting picture of the ATs players find the most viable for the very highest branch of the content tree. It is, from my observation, dominated by melee ATs.

This suggests to me that players who are aiming for the highest-end content in the game are making melee toons in anticipation of doing iTrials and/or the 50+ TFs. It would not be surprising to see this have the consequent effect of building greater demand for more new melee ATs, at least amongst VIPs.


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Posted

I'm not sure it's so much a case that melee is more popular, but rather, that melee lends itself easier to making new powersets. There are a gazillion weapons in the world with which you can artistically bash someone in the face with, but there are only so many ways to fire a gun, and after you get through all the available 'elements' (fire wtf you ain't an element) that's pretty much what you're left with: Guns.


Maybe we can have a giant ninja throwing star ranged set or something, I don't know.


 

Posted

I think the pattern is how much it costs to develop the power set with a bit of consideration for how long its been since a new power set has come out for free and if there's a hole in the existing availability of power sets.

Its hard to pull a pattern from one issue and a half issue but...

Since Freedom came out:

Time Manipulation: Nothing too technically new or that couldn't be done with existing tech and animations. New effect art and such. Nothing too terribly expensive. VIP membership used to make up the cost.

Beam Rifle: New weapon artwork. New tech to handle the jumping of powers to different mobs. New effect art and such. A little pricier. Paid set.

Street Justice: New combo builder tech. New animations and effects. A little pricier. Paid set.

Titan Weapons: New animations and effects. New weapon art. New momentum tech. Pricey to develop. Paid set.

Dark Control/Affinity: Hard to say since they aren't live yet but probably some new effect art. Possibly using standard existing animations. They probably want at least one new for VIP power set for an issue. Plus controllers are already gated. Cost made up by VIP and controller license.

Staff Fighting: All new animations, weapon cost. From the powers lists that leaked it sounds it has a combination of the dual pistols secondary effect picker ability from switch ammo and the combo builder tech from street justice. Pricier to develop so paid set.


 

Posted

Not to single you out, but this isn't 100% the case

Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS View Post
Time Manipulation: Nothing too technically new or that couldn't be done with existing tech and animations. New effect art and such. Nothing too terribly expensive. VIP membership used to make up the cost.
Quite a few new mechanics, (heal over time to name one) and completely new animations and fx, both being the most costly thing to develop.

Point being, we won't let development cost of a set be the singular deciding factor on whether a set is free for VIP or purchasable. Remember, we want for these sets to be compelling reasons for a free/Premium player to decide to become VIP, so we have a definite interest in making them appealing.


Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Quite a few new mechanics, (heal over time to name one) and completely new animations and fx, both being the most costly thing to develop.
Yes, but I'd guess that the effort required to make melee set animations look right is much greater than ranged power animations. Melee animations involve a lot of body motions that have to be timed properly with the activation time and interact with other characters. Most ranged powers, dual pistols being the major exception, involve a relatively simple posture change, some hand waving or gesturing with an implement.

In the case of new power sets like blaster Dark Manipulation and the new controller dark set, many of the powers already exist in some form and will require very little tweaking.

So there does seem to be a pattern for charging for sets that require more development. And, honestly, I think that's totally logical and I'm 100% behind it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
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Posted

While a new mechanic, somewhat, the HoT was not new tech. It's just a DoT but backwards.

Not sure how much it took to add the accelerated/delayed states, but the essence of that mechanic/tech is the same as containment.


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Posted

Rodion - Dark Control will have all new visual Fx.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
While a new mechanic, somewhat, the HoT was not new tech. It's just a DoT but backwards.

Not sure how much it took to add the accelerated/delayed states, but the essence of that mechanic/tech is the same as containment.
I could be wrong, but I recall Black Scorpion telling me that it required new tech just to make the "DoT go backward". This was not something our systems were capable of before.

Keep in mind that many mechanics are developed for other things, such as Incarnate content, which are sometimes used for things like new powersets. Generally speaking, we try to get as much use as we can out of new tech.


Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios

 

Posted

Seriously? If you get a chance to double check with him that would be cool. Seems off to me just because pretty much every else it seems healing is just another form of damage. Spectral wounds does a similar thing already.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
To answer the OP, no, we do not have any sort of policy that melee power sets will be purchasable only.

There's a whole range of powersets we haven't explored yet, melee, defensive, support, ranged...I'm certain that as time progresses there will be a good mix of what's purchasable vs. what's VIP included.
Turn Time Manipulation into a Melee Defense set variation! I will give you money equal to 800 points! ^_^


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
I could be wrong, but I recall Black Scorpion telling me that it required new tech just to make the "DoT go backward". This was not something our systems were capable of before.
That sounds.... weird to me.

I mean, we have a heal-over-time aura in a way (or "anti-damage" aura) in Pain Domination. (Soothing Aura.) Half wonder, if it required new tech, if he didn't just "reinvent the wheel." (Yes, I'm aware SA is a toggle.)


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Not to single you out, but this isn't 100% the case



Quite a few new mechanics, (heal over time to name one) and completely new animations and fx, both being the most costly thing to develop.

Point being, we won't let development cost of a set be the singular deciding factor on whether a set is free for VIP or purchasable. Remember, we want for these sets to be compelling reasons for a free/Premium player to decide to become VIP, so we have a definite interest in making them appealing.
Note that I didn't say it was the only consideration, but a piece of it.

So, without insider knowledge and studying the details of the animations I was going by what I've seen in the set and my knowledge of it, which isn't extremely extensive and I do make mistakes and misjudgments, but I do try and pay attention to stuff like that in game.

My understanding of how the game works is that most things grant a 'power' on something to facilitate an effect. HoT would be grant a power that adds so many hit points per second to a character. Stuff like beam rifle with stuff like the disintegrate effect would have to grant the power between NPCs in close range. From a programming standpoint, I could see how that would be technically more difficult and more expensive to implement properly than a 'power' that is stationary singular character like HoT, which as others have pointed out, is very similar to other things already in game.

I've also gathered that new animations in general are more expensive on the development side, from what Tunnel Rat, BaBs, Castle and various others have talked about. For example, they couldn't to power proliferation if it required new animations, indicating that somehow they are more expensive, or the stories of BaBs playing around with a whip in the parking lot trying to get the animations right for the Demon Summoning set right. While they may be new animations, they are nothing to the scale of new animations required for melee sets, like Titan Weapons and Staff Melee. Time manipulation COULD have been done with the stock animations already done. (by animations, i'm refering to the character movements, not the VFX tied to a particular power, I know those were all new for Time Manip).

I also said that cost wasn't the only factor...like a power set filling a gaping hole in the player themes, like controllers and dominators needing a dark-elemental set, or just wanting something for VIPs to get for free, like Time Manip. I just said it was A consideration. Given the sets introduced since the freedom model went into effect, I'd imagine the Dark Control/affinity and Time Manip were the cheapest of them all (though hard to say without seeing anything for the dark powers yet). I'd imagine that the art and animation assets put into street justice, titan weapons, and beam rifle were expensive as well as useful for many things down the line in the future.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky666 View Post
Am I as a VIP doomed to never get a free melee powerset again because it's the most popular and thus Paragon studios makes the most money off it?
For pancake's sake, you melee-focused players can find anything to complain about, can't you?


 

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Originally Posted by Talen Lee View Post
For ****'s sake, you melee-focused players can find anything to whine about, can't you?
Sweeping generalisation much? Please stop with the "us vs. them" arguments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Sweeping generalisation much? Please stop with the "us vs. them" arguments.
That's exactly what I'd expect one of your kind to say.

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek, Sam. I am nonetheless stunned that someone was able to find a reason to whine about getting extraordinary development attention for classes that don't need it.)


 

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Originally Posted by Talen Lee View Post
For ****'s sake, you melee-focused players can find anything to whine about, can't you?
Calm down.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talen Lee View Post
I am nonetheless stunned that someone was able to find a reason to whine about getting extraordinary development attention for classes that don't need it.
No, no, I agree with you completely. That's stupid and, moreover, it's working as intended. Paying for stuff was intended to come with the offset of more stuff to have, and to my eyes, that's a fair tradeoff. It's working as intended.

I don't disagree with your general assessment, I just don't want you to toss innocent people under the bus over it. I play melee characters almost exclusively and I'm perfectly happy to pay for more stuff for them, for instance


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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(The irony of it is that I have as many brutes as I have dominators. I just have a weird sense of fairness that kicks in at tie oddest times.)


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talen Lee View Post
For ****'s sake, you melee-focused players can find anything to whine about, can't you?
Lol that's what I thought, especially hardcore scrapper fans 'THIS POWERSET IS NOT BALANCED IT'S DOING 10 DPS LESS THAN AVERAGE'.

But that also shows why melee sets sell so well, people love them, while if you go to the blaster forums and ask 'hey what's the best secondary for my whatever/ blaster?' 90% of the answers will be '/EM or /MM' (just because one player will say fire and another will say ice, because nobody cares much about the others).

Also... I'm on my 3rd BR toon (other two stalled on the 20s-30s) because I bought the set, I want to like it but it seems so meh. On this third one I got to 30 I haven't seen any other BR like the first two (because the set was new), and nobody talks about Beam Rifle anymore while you still see threads about Kinetic Melee and StJ. I even saw energy blast toons lol.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talen Lee View Post
For ****'s sake, you melee-focused players can find anything to whine about, can't you?
lol y u so mad?

edit. to make this post mean something


Maybe you should read the OP again i simply found a pattern with all the new powersets being released all the melee ones were paid and was just hoping it didn't continue for the future.

A redname even confirmed that wasn't the case and I thanked him.

ya you got anger issues dude lol


 

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hot is just dot of - amount. It isn't damage in reverse.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
Remember, we want for these sets to be compelling reasons for a free/Premium player to decide to become VIP, so we have a definite interest in making them appealing.
Using powersets to give free/premiums more reasons to become VIPs, perhaps there should be a higher ratio of VIP-included power sets versus paid extras. So far i think there's 1 VIP unlocked set to 3 VIP paid sets.

I mean, if the F2P crowd seeing that there's more paid extra sets than there are freely unlocked with a sub, then they might decide to just use that $15 sub money to buy points instead.

Not sure expecting them to wait 2 months to bank the VIP stipend to buy one powerset would be enough. They could buy $10 worth of points every month and end up paying less than a VIP who would've spent $30 and 2 months waiting for that $10 worth of stipend points.

Maybe?