We are Incarnate, but are we having more fun?
By
android33,
Posted on: 2011-12-14 14:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Having a team of maxed out Incarnates doing the old non-Incarnate content is quite a lot of fun - especially when you get things like Romulus telling his master that he can't defeat us because we wield the power of the gods 
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I find it fun, too, but only for so long. Then I long for the challenge of the old days of striving to win a TF. I know the new Trials are harder, but I feel like they are harder more due to coordination rather than "who is more powerful" kind of thing. I liked dying and then finally prevailing--it felt like it meant something.
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I totally get what you mean. This is why I am VERY impatient for issue 22. I just want to be able to fight my way through Tips or missions at my own pace sometimes- sort of a .. "decompression" from work. Having a Incarnate zone will allow me to do that with my Incarnated 50s. I also want to be challenged with them. The Trials are a challenge but its more coordination as you said, also racing the clock at times or wierd mechanics. I just want to take my Tier 4'ed out Tanker into a mission of Incarnate enemies and see if I can get through with just guts and my playstyle. THAT will come with I22 (I hope)
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
Yeah, the iTrials do sort of feel like glorified versions of Dragon's Lair, in which you must do all the right things in exactly the right order or you fail. But I think the idea behind the iTrials is really good: "end-game" content meant only for lvl 50s that can be finished in 30 minutes. I just wish (a) there was more of it, and (b) it wasn't so reliant on death puzzles.
I am definitely having more fun with the Incarnate stuff than without it, but I see myself running out of reasons to find it fun once I've leveled up a second toon to multiple tier 4s, and it all starts to feel beyond routine. I am not a fan of the grindy nature of every MMO's end-game content. I want variety, and that is hard to get from the same six trials and the same dozen(?) Hero Tips (I'd try a vigilante just to break things up, except they can't earn alignment merits).
Luckily for me, there are a lot of TFs I've never done, so there is still a wealth of content, old and new (I've never run into Requiem, for instance) still to experience. Unfortunately, most of them exemplar me below 47, so I won't have any of my new-found Incarnate power at my disposal to make me feel like a greater demi-god amongst lesser demi-gods. 
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Saddly, while I may never of had a problem with defeat, I don't know if the mass majority of players agree.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I find it fun, too, but only for so long. Then I long for the challenge of the old days of striving to win a TF. I know the new Trials are harder, but I feel like they are harder more due to coordination rather than "who is more powerful" kind of thing. I liked dying and then finally prevailing--it felt like it meant something.
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I recall quite well the early days of the ITF and people ragequitting (the TF) because they died to often, or thought it unbeatable.
The 9hour+ ITF, that I assured my team we could beat if we used planning and stuck to it is still one of my favorite moments in the game.
And that was beaten by only 4 remaining members of the team who refused to say "quit" 2 SKs and 2 Mentors (1 50 Tank, 1 50 Troller, and a SKed Troller and SKed Tank).
Even though I admit that's an extreme, I remember many people leaving any ITF that took between 30-90mins.
"We've been at this for 90mins! Gaaaah!" *So and So has quit team*
Really, my experience is people don't want challenges, they want to smash buttons and win, while looking good doing it.
Sure, they might like to look like they COULD faceplant, but they don't tend to want to faceplant.
Unless it's a dedicated Blaster ^_^
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I am having more fun in the game...forum surfing is a bit worse though (well maybe about the same)
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Pre-trial Alpha I liked. It shored up your character without making others useless. The WST meant I could plan out how and when to get my components and it wasn't the same thing over and over.
Post trials, bleh. Anything that can be done at 45+ is now rolling Judgements and Destinies (you have a crash nuke? how quaint. *ION JUMP*). Sure you can run trials over (and over and over and over) but random is random and random hates some people and likewise some people hate random. Been there, done that, got the purple T-Shirt from other raiding games and their raids are much better and I loathe those raids.
So when it was just Alpha and WST I liked Incarnates and had fun with them. I was hoping for the solo path to bring that back but it sounds like it's already a victim to protecting the trials.
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You're correct on one point, people don't like things even with a bit of gimmick. Even on a Speed Lambda that I've always been successful, I still find it quite impressive that when that big 'MARAUDER WILL USE NOVA FIST BACK OFF' text appears, I just know 5-8 people are gonna die because they won't back off. And that's not exactly close to any other trial mechanic...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Saddly, while I may never of had a problem with defeat, I don't know if the mass majority of players agree.
I recall quite well the early days of the ITF and people ragequitting (the TF) because they died to often, or thought it unbeatable. The 9hour+ ITF, that I assured my team we could beat if we used planning and stuck to it is still one of my favorite moments in the game. And that was beaten by only 4 remaining members of the team who refused to say "quit" 2 SKs and 2 Mentors (1 50 Tank, 1 50 Troller, and a SKed Troller and SKed Tank). Even though I admit that's an extreme, I remember many people leaving any ITF that took between 30-90mins. "We've been at this for 90mins! Gaaaah!" *So and So has quit team* Really, my experience is people don't want challenges, they want to smash buttons and win, while looking good doing it. |
OTOH, ITF and LGTF is content basically everyone likes. But even 30-minute ITFs and 40-minute LFTGs are things you do, enjoy and don't wanna do another in 1 hour, or in my case the same day (maybe the same week even), while the iTrials... You just gotta keep doing them over and over and that gets old even if you find BAF/Lambda the most awesome thing ever (I'm citing those two because they are the ones that barely get complaints).
i understand where you are coming from too. it's the little things i like that's making the game more enjoyable to me. i hate having to rinse and repeat so much for incarnates.
but i do like the little things in the game. like more zones at the ferry and choppers, tailor options with the arbiters, inherent fitness, travel options, paragon store on demand, f2p option, character search options, right click in game for info, chat, etc., email and account items improvements, character creation improvements, copy and pasting and so on.
all the little things that improve an already great game, and makes small task like transferring money from one toon to another, traveling between zones, switching sides from blue to red is what keeps me loyal and happy.
now this is not to say i don't enjoy the incarnates, because i do, very much. but i guess i expect new things to be added like that over time. but the small conveniences makes for a great foundation to a game.
25 minute or so RSF last night, speed ITF/STF, near-invinciibiity and some of the trials are still challenging?
Darn tootin' I'm having more fun!
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No, not really having "more fun" at this point. I think I'm with Ogi above - with just alpha, it's a nice boost to help out. Past that, quite a bit seems to get trivialized.
There are times I almost wish for an "old school" (no IO/no Incarnate) server. Won't happen, of course.
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This is basically all i ever want in a game. As a scrapper im literally toe to toe with X villain and while i want to win, i want it to feel like its an epic fight.| Really, my experience is people don't want challenges, they want to smash buttons and win, while looking good doing it |
I like the feeling that while yes they are stronger [in some way] than myself, that there is that small feeling that there is a possibility i could defeat him/her!
In terms of just general gameplay, its also the reason i push the amount of enemies per spawn up. Its not so i can get more drops [well that counts into too ok
] but that whenever i jump into a mission i do feel like im charging through their base as some superpowered god where my goal/real challenge lies too at the back.Take for example the ouroboros TF that involves the 5th column. That final mission [to myself] is one of the best feelings i have ingame to play in. The whole final room full of enemies waiting to use sheer numbers to defeat you has a great feeling. Since they are weakened versions and they do die in 2/3 hits, it has a feeling of that you CAN and will die if you dont pay attention but also that you can defeat them all.
I'll admit that first time i saw that amount of mobs i had to face i doubted myself, but now i see it as one huge defining moment in my characters story. The moment where they prove to the world that they are the real deal.
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I have fun on good teams during trials...bad teams less so, not so much because of less success, but invariably some other league members get way too angry and serious over a video game trial that's made to challenge.
I do however LOVE to play my 50's with their incarnate goodies in standard content. Seriously, once they get well incarnated, it's tough for me, an unapologetic altoholic, to go back to playing lower characters.
Playing a kitted out dominator that heals herself and friends, swollows minions in a deadly void, and summons phantasms to do her bidding while weakening with every attack? That's fun. A fire dominator who heals himself back to whole while spamming fireballs, next to nuking fireballs that stun, next to fire attacks that set things on fire even more under the shields of pets? Fun, man. Squishies with mez protection? Mass healing +regen powers? MORE bubbles for my bubblers? Anything with judgement? Secondary effects you can swap in/out of, cherry picking to fit your character or powers? Enhancements to do what six slots can't? Pets to drop on a particularly troublesome enemy when you're having a tough time? I giggle at the crazy things my incarnates do in regular content. I think it worries my game buddies at times.
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CoH is not "made to challenge".
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Originally Posted by Seldom
a video game trial that's made to challenge.
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If you really long for the 'old' challenge of doing a TF, and for the record, I agree..I recall tanking my first RSF vs lvl 54 Heroes on a brute..and THAT made me feel tougher than I do now, try slotting an alt build with SOs. It is sure to make things feel a bit harder.|
Originally Posted by shaggy5
I find it fun, too, but only for so long. Then I long for the challenge of the old days of striving to win a TF. I know the new Trials are harder, but I feel like they are harder more due to coordination rather than "who is more powerful" kind of thing. I liked dying and then finally prevailing--it felt like it meant something.
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That may sound sarcastic, but what your asking for just doesnt work. We got more powers, better enhancements in IOs, etc etc. And you know what hasnt changed? That old content. On the other hand, the trials ARE a challenge for most people. Because they were designed assuming we would all at least have basic incarnate powers.
Of course, were the issue all falls down is that as we get more and more super cool toys..the baddies get tougher too. Level shifts, exotic damage types, hit buffs, tougher, auto hit cheating damage.
To be honest, I have just as much fun playing a toon up to 50, without all that shiny stuff, as I do when playing one of my Incarnates. I think if you 'need' teh incarnate stuff to feel powerful and have fun, something isn't quite right.
Yes I am OP. If it were not for incarnate stuff I would not be playing COX right now.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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As much as I do love my incarnate shinies, I can agree with this. Just after alpha hit, when zones were full of people doing the tfs, like 6 LGs going at once..that was cool to see. Also agree that as good, content wise, as the solo content may be, the rewards are gonna be awful because they have to keep people going back to the trials.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Pre-trial Alpha I liked. It shored up your character without making others useless. The WST meant I could plan out how and when to get my components and it wasn't the same thing over and over.
Post trials, bleh. Anything that can be done at 45+ is now rolling Judgements and Destinies (you have a crash nuke? how quaint. *ION JUMP*). Sure you can run trials over (and over and over and over) but random is random and random hates some people and likewise some people hate random. Been there, done that, got the purple T-Shirt from other raiding games and their raids are much better and I loathe those raids. So when it was just Alpha and WST I liked Incarnates and had fun with them. I was hoping for the solo path to bring that back but it sounds like it's already a victim to protecting the trials. |
No
That's the tl;dr response
The proper response is that I have a massive problem with the whole Incarnate bollocks. It essentially disempowers the player and the PC and rips their destiny from their hands.
Also, the stories aren't that good in comparison to much of the existing content. Some pass muster but when the good stuff comes up, they bend the rules to make the mission tough in terribly bad ways.
I actually loathe the way I become more powerful but I actually really like the whole tree power thing. That in itself is an interesting exploration and the power trees and balance make it intersting. That's the one mitigating factor.
Thelonious Monk
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If they have to nerf the solo rewards to basically nothing in order to keep people playing the trials then there is something really wrong in the kitchen.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Also agree that as good, content wise, as the solo content may be, the rewards are gonna be awful because they have to keep people going back to the trials.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I wouldn't really say I'm having more fun, but I'm not really having less fun either. Progression is progression, without it all there would be to do is mindless roll more toons for otherwise no purpose than to level said toon. However incarnates did sort of ruin speed record chasing for me, which was a large part of the game for me, doing tin mage and apex in 15 minutes in i19 was a big deal, now we have interface, judgment, lore, and destiny and it really takes away so much challenge out of getting a good time.
Maybe some of you people that don't like the power of the incarnate powers can get together and run incarnate content without the level shifts or with just the alpha.
Groups of like minded people get together to do "their own thing" a lot in this game. I see this as the same kind of thing.
The alternative is trying to tell "other" people how they should play or what powers they should use to have fun etc... and we want to stay as far away from that childish ish as possible.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
yeah I agree Darth. Trouble is..I really dont see how (hopefully they prove me wrong) they can have solo content, that wont stop a lot of people leaving the trials. Especially those that dont power game their builds, lag a lot, have slow load times, flat out hate the events..
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I don't mind if it's slow, I just want it to be full of interesting stories to explore. I hope it's an opportunity to take some characters through a comic book adventure more epic in scale than usual.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
If they have to nerf the solo rewards to basically nothing in order to keep people playing the trials then there is something really wrong in the kitchen.
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There is no sense (or fairness) in inflating solo rewards compared to those gained by entire leagues on Incarnate trials. You can't have it both ways and preserve internal consistency.
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Having a lot more fun in game. Actually started despising the forums for a while there.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
This may sound like a complaint thread, but it isn't. I just noticed that now that I am Incarnate Powered, I am pretty dang powerful, but that doesn't mean I am having more fun. Yes, at times it is very fun to just mow through purples and feel like a stud, but overall, I don't think I am having more fun. Still love the game, don't plan on leaving, just observing.
What *is* making me have more fun is the Quality of Life features that just keep being added. OMG I can sell salvage from nearly anywhere! I can switch servers (for a better price). Travel isn't the problem it used to be. Go through one of the threads on QoL and THOSE are the things that make me keep loving this game, not being unkillable...
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers