Please Stop Using Temporary Powers for Things that Ought to Just Happen
By
AquaJAWS,
Posted on: 2011-12-14 12:35 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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As it happens the MO (Master of) Lambda badges are designed around precisely the opposite condition - on 3 separate runs, you have to collect all the temps without using any, collect the acids only and not use any, and collect all the grenades, again without using any.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
2) Even better: The gate is simply shut on its own (this assumes badges aren't designed specifically around the opposite condition, which in itself is unnecessary)
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So, having them use themselves would break that mechanic (not that I don't think it's broken anyway *shameless plug for the return of the old 'bugged' MOLambda conditions*), so it's not likely to happen.
@Mistress Rue
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Ok I have always been confused about this badge.|
Originally Posted by Mistress Rue
As it happens the MO (Master of) Lambda badges are designed around precisely the opposite condition - on 3 separate runs, you have to collect all the temps without using any, collect the acids only and not use any, and collect all the grenades, again without using any.
So, having them use themselves would break that mechanic (not that I don't think it's broken anyway *shameless plug for the return of the old 'bugged' MOLambda conditions*), so it's not likely to happen. |
Wouldn't fulfilling the first requirement fulfill all 3? If you collect all the temps and not use any of them wouldn't you get credit for the other two?
Also how the heck do you not use any temps in that and win?
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Originally Posted by Mistress Rue
As it happens the MO (Master of) Lambda badges are designed around precisely the opposite condition - on 3 separate runs, you have to collect all the temps without using any, collect the acids only and not use any, and collect all the grenades, again without using any.
So, having them use themselves would break that mechanic (not that I don't think it's broken anyway *shameless plug for the return of the old 'bugged' MOLambda conditions*), so it's not likely to happen. |
Yes. That is why I am saying to design those sorts of badges in a way that doesn't make the trial itself turn into a suckfest when you try to include players who are not the best.
If they wanted to make this thing work for Masters runs, they could have just had a switch somewhere in the trial that you throw. Or just about anything. It really did not have to be tied to temp powers assigned to random team members.Remember that the original design of these trials was intended for us to largely join anonymously via the LFG tool. Very little about the design of the actual trials supports this. The more I play the more I want to just find a dedicated group and never again deal with the frustration inherent in their open design--which gets worse, not better, in the later trials (although not all of this has to do with just temporary powers).
Yeah, I find the temp powers annoying. At level 50 I often don't have a useful space left on the power bar to put them.
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I tend to agree with most of this. I have had (mostly when the trials were new) leagues that failed because of people not understanding the temps. Or even the people with them dc'ing, leaving everyone else stranded. That said..I am not sure making the events just happen would be an improvement. Easier, sure, but not better.
Maybe some more notifications should be added? Such as a BIG text pop up when you get a temp (not the tiny thing we have now) and something like teh red exclamation help tips, somewhere on screens. The LIWW on UG is really bad too..as others have said, a pop up should appear.
On a side issue..Speed Lambdas. I understand them, I can see why people do them..but..to me, neglecting half the temps we are meant to be getting, just doesnt fit. I would like to see them add a minimum amount of crates/acids needed. On my last incarnate runs with a toon, I failed about..5? slams..simply because the leader was too dumb and stubborn to see that a team of mostly 50s couldnt handle the aggro from 10 active doors.
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Apparently no, at least according to whatever committee solidified the requirements.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Ok I have always been confused about this badge.
Wouldn't fulfilling the first requirement fulfill all 3? If you collect all the temps and not use any of them wouldn't you get credit for the other two? |
Run 1: Get all the grenades and no acids, and no acids or grenades during the final phase, and use no grenades for the final battle. Note: you can't use any acids as you can't collect even 1 acid.
Run 2: Get all the acids and no grenades, and no acids or grenades during the final phase, and use no acids for the final battle. Note: you can't use any grenades as you can't collect even 1 grenade.
Run 3: Get all the acids and all grenades during the sabotage phase, no acids or grenades during the final phase, and use no acids or grenades for the final battle.
Yeah, whoever approved these badges didn't grok that these goals are completely redundant and that most players wouldn't want to do the "no temps at all" more than once.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Also how the heck do you not use any temps in that and win?
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
People are still bothering to close the portals? Every LAM I'm on these days is a sLAM, adn the portals and the acids are just ignored.
Eco
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Im not upset about the temp powers. What I am concerned about is that some people lag during these trials. Some people crash during the trials...and when they crash if they have the temp powers it gets messy.
Stability has been an issue for many players running these trials. With Mapserver issues common, and .Pigg file crashes (I hear this a lot and have experienced it as well) it can result in people having the powers to unintentionally causing the league to fail.
Although I do see the purpose of the temps however.
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Yup...we do...Actually, I usually do the portal runs. I take everyones acid and shut the portals. Just cuz!
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
People are still bothering to close the portals? Every LAM I'm on these days is a sLAM, adn the portals and the acids are just ignored.
Eco |
I'm in favor of temp powers, as it require more team coordination, understanding of the actual trial and strategy.
However, the d/c problem could be solved by automatically having temp powers transfered to random player in the same team (league if team is empty) on d/c.
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Possible solution: Have temps go to the league leader (or team leader) who may then distribute them accordingly.
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I would quit a LAM that didn't close the portals. I don't enjoy starting at an inert body lying on the screen for 10 minutes and pretending I'm playing a game.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
People are still bothering to close the portals? Every LAM I'm on these days is a sLAM, adn the portals and the acids are just ignored.
Eco |
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
People are still bothering to close the portals? Every LAM I'm on these days is a sLAM, adn the portals and the acids are just ignored.
Eco |
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Originally Posted by rsclark
I would quit a LAM that didn't close the portals. I don't enjoy starting at an inert body lying on the screen for 10 minutes and pretending I'm playing a game.
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No everyone plays on fully outfitted 50+3s.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the point MrCaptainMan was making is that while the LAM was a hard trial to finish when it first came out it can now be pretty easily completed by fully outfitted 50+3 Incarnates without worrying about the portals. I've been on a few LAMs in the last few months that didn't take more than a couple of minutes to pound Marauder into the ground regardless of the portals. *shrugs*
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/qft|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Yeah, I find the temp powers annoying. At level 50 I often don't have a useful space left on the power bar to put them.
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Lambda doesn't bother me too much because there is a pause period before the AV encounter. It is especially annoying during Keyes trials as I'm on a squishy trying not to die I have to scroll through my long list of powers and drag it to an open spot somewhere.
So while I like the concept of having to use these powers to complete the trials, the implementation and mechanics of using them could be a little more user friendly.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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It did use to but for some reason they decided to fix it, when the trial first came out you could get all three badges at once by collecting all the temp powers then using none of them. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
Ok I have always been confused about this badge.
Wouldn't fulfilling the first requirement fulfill all 3? If you collect all the temps and not use any of them wouldn't you get credit for the other two? |
If I remember correctly now you have to run through the trial three times. One to specifically collect all the Pacification grenades (and no acid) and not use them, one to specifically collect all the Acid grenades (and no pacficiation grenades) and one to collect all of them and not use any.
Yes...yes it is very stupid.
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I seldom see the majority of any league being 50+3s on the Incarnate trials these days... Including the MoM and TPN trials on live. At most, only 1/3 of the leagues I've seen are 50+3, sometimes a lot less.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
it can now be pretty easily completed by fully outfitted 50+3 Incarnates without worrying about the portals.
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Edit:
It seems that a lot of players take the "only need to get to tier 3 then stop, and only on one tree per slot" road. This means they aren't grinding to Tier 4 abilities.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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And I was on a LAM not long ago where the trial failed because there were simply too many adds. The dangers of not closing the doors and not having a league full of +3s I guess. Surely neither the devs nor league leaders can realistically expect everyone to be capable of (or willing to attempt) what amounts to an ad hoc MO Lambda.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
I think the point MrCaptainMan was making is that while the LAM was a hard trial to finish when it first came out it can now be pretty easily completed by fully outfitted 50+3 Incarnates without worrying about the portals. I've been on a few LAMs in the last few months that didn't take more than a couple of minutes to pound Marauder into the ground regardless of the portals. *shrugs*
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It is interesting that "speed" Lambda seems to have different definitions. In every SLam I've been on, it meant skipping the mobs outside the facility and ignoring the turrets. It did not mean skipping the acids/nades and, as a consequence, leaving the doors open and Marauder enraged the whole time.
I like the idea of the league leader (or someone experienced with the trial) taking all the acids and closing the doors themselves. Lately I have tried getting everyone to count off their acids while we wait for 18:00, and in nearly every case I get a count of only 7 or 8. How is that possible when we got all 10 chambers destroyed during the previous phase? I almost always see the fight with Marauder happen with anywhere from 2 to 4 of the doors left undestroyed. How does that happen?
I can understand newbies not knowing what to do with the acids. I even understand newbies who haven't learned to leave two or three slots open in tray 1 for these temp powers. But does anyone not understand how to respond to: "Please check your trays and power lists for acids and give me your count." ??? If trials can fail because enough players don't have a grasp of the fundamentals of temp powers (just in general--how to find them, how to drag them to an accessible tray, how to use them), then something is wrong, either with the design and expectations of the trials (by the devs), or with the understanding of the game that players acquire by the time they reach L50.
Someone mentioned the problem with players who do 1-50 by doing nothing but DFB, and consequently know next to nothing about how their toon's power sets interact with situations other than the few presented by DFB, and even less about more "advanced" concepts like protecting NPCs, using temp powers, destroying objects, enemy mob control, etc. In effect, DFB has done nothing to help prepare players for the Incarnate game experience, and I suspect this problem is only going to get worse as time goes on.
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LOL my exact thoughts! I had to pull out one more tray just so it shows both acid/grenade. |
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Yeah, I find the temp powers annoying. At level 50 I often don't have a useful space left on the power bar to put them.
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And yes, I've always thought Lamba is only "hard" because of technical difficulties. It is not uncommon to see people crashing during Lamba during critical time and then the last AV fight becomes way harder.
I still remember one time the leader suggests giving all the Grenade to a Tanker and guess what? We gave him 8 and he freaking crashed and only came back with 2 minutes left. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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This problem used to be AE babies and still occasionally is... I doubt it'll get worse though since it's been pretty much the same for awhile now.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Someone mentioned the problem with players who do 1-50 by doing nothing but DFB, and consequently know next to nothing about how their toon's power sets interact with situations other than the few presented by DFB, and even less about more "advanced" concepts like protecting NPCs, using temp powers, destroying objects, enemy mob control, etc. In effect, DFB has done nothing to help prepare players for the Incarnate game experience, and I suspect this problem is only going to get worse as time goes on.
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I think the way the league objectives work in lamda and UG and such, temp powers of some kind are still needed, however I think it would be highly useful for the dev team to develop a League-wide temp power reserve window/interface for this. Something like you get and acid, instead of dropping into a player's temp power list and sometimes their trays, they drop into a single league wide repository that everyone has access to. I know someone has made that suggestion before, and I liked it, though I can see that it would take some tech work, but I think it would be an ideal solution.
Something like at the bottom of the trial-info window it said 7 acids - 8 grenades, or 27 lichen, or whatever the trial needs, and anyone can click on it and use it like a power that they have. Most of the trial temp powers have special logic to prevent simultaneous usage (like grenades) and only on certain things, so that should prevent a lot of grieving. If someone drops, DCs, dies, or just isn't paying attention or whatever, the power's they 'collected' are still available to anyone else to pick up the slack and move forward.
As far as getting them into the player's trays so key-binds and macros and such will work, just add a temp power and/or command to player's thing that pulls from the league 'reserve' and uses the power, if going that far is even necessary.
Then they aren't limited to the league leader, which could be a problem if they DC or drop. If whoever went through and grabbed all the glowie shrooms in UG dies a lot cause they are too squishy against the warwalker, others in the league can still use them as needed. It sounds to me like the best of both worlds without drastically modifying the trial mechanics.
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As far as the lamda master-of badges...I think they should be changed from the 3 that are currently there:
- Collect All Acids, Collect No Grenades, Use none
- Collect No Acids, Collect All Grenades, Use none
- Collect All Acids, Collect All Grenades, Use none
They should be changed to:
- Collect All Acids in under 5 mins.
- Collect All Grenades in under 5 mins.
- Defeat Marauder without closing any portals or grenade pacification.
Collecting all of both is a joke. I can't think of a league, especially at this point, that didn't do that. Its not badge worthy. The challenge is defeating him without closing the portals or pacification.
The requirement to defeat him in all of the current badges without closing the portals or pacifying him is just redundant. Doing that once should be one badge and that's it for it.
The additional challenge of the first two I listed of the originals is collecting the items themselves before the timer runs out, since it doesn't increase then since the others aren't being collected. So instead of saying don't collect any of the other, make it that you have to get them before the 5 minute mark which is saying the same thing.
Doing this will make a Master-of run possible in one run plus retain all of the challenges of the current badges. There's still the sync badge, but that one is pretty easy to get on accident, at least I usually get the astral for it 50% of the time without even trying. With trying and a bit of coordination it isn't hard at all.
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I've seen a couple leagues recently that had difficulty doing that.|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
Collecting all of both is a joke. I can't think of a league, especially at this point, that didn't do that.
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Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
The requirement to defeat him in all of the current badges without closing the portals or pacifying him is just redundant. Doing that once should be one badge and that's it for it.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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You want a certain number of adds to appear to make sure that you defeat enough to get the astral before you defeat the AV. But you should still close some or most of the portals to avoid having pointless deaths and potential failure.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
I would quit a LAM that didn't close the portals. I don't enjoy starting at an inert body lying on the screen for 10 minutes and pretending I'm playing a game.
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The problem with sLAMs is that you miss out on astrals by not getting both grenades and acids. It also doesn't save much time -- if you've got all the grenades you still have to wait for the timer to end and the AV to appear, and if you don't get all the grenades in time you miss out on another astral. And if you defeat the AV before enough IDF forces are defeated you miss out on yet another astral.
If enough characters are dying during the AV fight (especially debuffers), it will take longer to defeat the AV because there's less concentrated fire on him, and the whole thing can take longer than if you if did it the right way.
Finally, unless the team is actually capable of withstanding the attacks of all the adds, the odds of failing the trial are high. Half the time I do a pickup slam on Freedom (where it's de rigueur) it fails because there aren't enough players who are +2 or +3, and don't have the necessary incarnate powers to survive.
So instead of getting several astrals, several threads, an empyrean merit and a random salvage roll, you get just one or two threads for the sake of saving five minutes out of a 25 minute trial.
There are a lot of frustrations I have with the incarnate trials, but I want to point out a particular one: the overuse of temporary powers to achieve things that ought to just happen.
If I am in a Lambda and the team has 10 acids, I shouldn't need to worry that the person who randomly got them doesn't speak English, isn't listening, got disconnected, or just wants to grief the league. One of two things should happen:
1) Any team member can close the gate by clicking it
2) Even better: The gate is simply shut on its own (this assumes badges aren't designed specifically around the opposite condition, which in itself is unnecessary)
These powers are confusing and its incredibly lame when a league fails a trial because the game handed the temp power to the one player who refuses to use it or can't for some reason.
On a somewhat related, somewhat not note, its really amazing to me how quickly playing the incarnate content makes me feel increasingly hostile towards this game and its raid content. I had stayed away from it for a while, recently waded back in, and once again am feeling like this game is looking for a very different kind of player than me.