City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Remember that guy? Lord Recluse?

Agent White

By Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 02:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Well, there were some Arachnos incursions in the Neutropolis arcs.
I liked that aspect of the late Praetorian arcs quite a bit. The Longbow incursions seemed a bit hokey, but Longbow has always felt a bit forced to me. But the Arachnos presence in some of the late goldside arcs felt like a well paced roll-in of the merging dimensions story lines IMO.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
The UN is a bit different in CoH World. For one thing, it has it's own army in the form of Vanguard, which is the most powerful, best equipped, armed and trained military force on the planet (this counts the meta-human members, like the players) and has a world-wide reach (there are still Rikti under Rome, for instance). However, the Vanguard's scope is limited. It's official position on Arachnos seems to be "stay out of our way and let us do our jobs."
It's easy to deploy your pet army against enemies who don't have representatives at the UN.

But Vanguard is certainly kept plenty busy with existing extradimensional threats in any event.

@Mindshadow

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch View Post
I have a loyalist "hero" and a straight up arachnos agent (two of them). I dont want my ability to play straight up villains tromped on. If they kill off Cole so completely that I can no longer be a praetorian loyalist, or an arachnos loyalist, I will be very unhappy.
At the Player Summit, the devs talked about Tyrant being defeated, and leaving a power vacuum - so that sounds like they have something planned for the end of the Praetorian storyline that will have a permanent effect on the game world.
And as the phasing tech apparently has to be built into a zone from the start, it might be significant that the whole phasing tech system was added to the game at the same time as the Praetorian zones.

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Posted

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Originally Posted by Egos_Shadow View Post
It's easy to deploy your pet army against enemies who don't have representatives at the UN.

But Vanguard is certainly kept plenty busy with existing extradimensional threats in any event.
Not sure it's ever stated that the Rogue Isles don't have UN representation. But then, this is comic book politics. *shrugs*

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend View Post
Not sure it's ever stated that the Rogue Isles don't have UN representation. But then, this is comic book politics. *shrugs*
No, I mean - getting UN action against the Rikti or Praetoria is easy. Would you like to not be destroyed by aliens [y/n]? And the aliens don't get to vote! Getting coherent action against a UN member state is another matter, particularly since in a comic book world there's probably a whole bloc of nations who are engaged in metahuman shenanigans, just not on as large a scale as Recluse.

@Mindshadow

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
Except, looking at real UN politics, I suspect that (as long as Arachnos mostly leaves them alone) Russia, China, and other nations who don't really like the US would support and/or shield them, just to give the US a stick in the eye/pebble in its shoe/etc right on its doorstep.
Paragon City is not "on the US doorstep," it's within United States borders. Recluse is effectively trying to occupy an American city. That's practically the next best thing to a declaration of war. I have a very difficult time seeing the UN under any circumstances standing idly by and allowing one member to simply invade another and declare war without any consequences. And even if that happened, the US shouldn't need foreign support for a war on the Rogue Isles. Recluse has, what? Seven small islands? A flotilla of helicopters? Unless he has some grand master plan to punch the US army into submission planned BEFORE he invades, launching an overt invasion is asking for trouble. And even if he had such a plan, that would only work once.

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Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
Also, IMO and for what it's worth, leaving out all the super-powered stuff, what you're describing is not unlike what Cuba used to be. And we did come as close as we ever have to (nuclear) war over that one. In that case, of course, both sides backed down and decided it wasn't worth it.
Cuba was never within US borders. Paragon City is. This is more like Modern Warfare 2 where Russia invades the US or Modern Warfare 3 where Russia invades all of Europe simultaneously. This is an invasion of the regular armed forces of one sovereign state within the borders of another. Even wacky comic book logic can't excuse that. This is a declaration of war. I mean, Longbow holding a fort in Arachnos territory is pushing it, but as I understand it, Nerva is technically independent from Arachnos and neutral, plus I understand they have some sort of permission from someone. It's not literally an armed invasion.

You know what IS an armed invasion, though? Longbow occupying Fort Darwin by force. True, Longbow are not directly affiliated with the American government, but they are based in the US and such an open occupation should probably brand them as terrorists. Instead of torturing their soldiers and burning down his own base, Recluse would be within his full right to demand that the US government take actions against this terrorist organisation operating from within their borders which is unlawfully attacking a sovereign nation and attempting to overthrow its officially and internationally recognised government.

I'm not asking for a simulation of contemporary international politics here, but I'm asking for SOME kind of consequence for a clear violation of international law, or otherwise the abandonment of said international law. Either the Rogue Isles are a recognised sovereign nation or they're not. If they are, then they can't attack other sovereign nations and they can't be attacked themselves. If they can attack and be attacked, then they have to be declared a rogue state and some other reason brought up for why they can't just be invaded by a coalition of forces. This is almost word for word what I've been seeing in the news for the past few years, and it's becoming harder and harder to accept.

Really, it's gotten to the point where Recluse himself comes to Paragon City, blows up buildings and punches the Statesman, then he leaves and our response is "Oh, that recluse! He's so wacky!" On the flip side, we have Longbow carrying out terrorist guerilla action within a foreign nation's borders, and Recluse's response is "You'll PAY for this CAPTAIN PLANET!"

---

What happened to Lord Recluse? He became a joke, is what happened to him. Instead of acting like an evil mastermind in charge of what may be the most powerful criminal organisation in the world, he's a mugging chucklehead who does his own punching and who fails to make use of laws when they actually work for him. He's acting like an oaf, and he really shouldn't be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Cuba was never within US borders. Paragon City is.
Uh, I believe he was equating the Rogue Isles and Lord Recluse with Cuba, not Paragon City.

 

Posted

That's what I meant, yes. And I didn't see the new Tutorial as an invasion; more like (yet another) raid, taking advantage of the chaos and destruction accompanying the disaster. They're just here to sift through the rubble for valuables and McGuffins, maybe recruit a few new mooks in spandex, and beat it back to the Isles; "loot and scoot".

A lot of your other points come down to "I don't want them to act like comic book villains." And, um, well... *cough*

If you need something to keep you busy, I invite you to research the record of US foreign policy toward a small European country called Latveria, ruled over with a literal iron fist by a fellow with the cheerful name of DOOM (of whom, let's face it, Recluse is seldom more than a thinly-veiled expy). Despite his well-documented personal commission of multiple terrorist acts on American soil, most of them involving trying to blow up (launch into orbit, etc) a particular building in Manhattan, he's still in power and has been for decades.

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Posted

You heard it here first, Lord Recluse will be the new replacement after the next Who Will Die arc!

 

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Originally Posted by Megajoule View Post
A lot of your other points come down to "I don't want them to act like comic book villains." And, um, well... *cough*
I don't want Recluse to act like a cartoon villain, is what I mean. Like I said, I'm not looking for a simulation of real-world events, but if we're going to be using international laws as a reason for the sovereignty of the Rogue Isles, then Recluse can't go around punching people through buildings on American soil.

On the flip side, if we want his to be a rogue nation, then that's fine, too. He's an international criminal holed up in an island stronghold and armed with thousands of nukes, so we don't want to mess with him. Have THAT be his excuse, but then we rob Crey of any reason to be there since they would technically be conducting business with a known criminal.

I just want the game to be consistent with its own lore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
You know what IS an armed invasion, though? Longbow occupying Fort Darwin by force. True, Longbow are not directly affiliated with the American government, but they are based in the US and such an open occupation should probably brand them as terrorists. Instead of torturing their soldiers and burning down his own base, Recluse would be within his full right to demand that the US government take actions against this terrorist organisation operating from within their borders which is unlawfully attacking a sovereign nation and attempting to overthrow its officially and internationally recognised government.

.

Ok, If i understand their status correctly, Longbow is a private organization that the UN has uses as their defacto peacekeeping force. It's legality is based largely on it's connection to Ms. Liberty (and by extension, Statesman.)

The US government has no direct control over Longbow and, as such, are under no obligation to do anything about their occupation of Ft. Darwin. Having said that, the US government could completely disavow the organization if Arachnos decided to claim its sovereign rights to beat the holy hell out of them.

Personally, since I'm not too fond of Libby or her Longbow toy soldiers, I'd be happy to claim a spot on a nearby rooftop and watch the fireworks if they did.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I just want the game to be consistent with its own lore.
You have your choice of two replies:
"Me too." (sarcastic yet sincere)
"It's nice to want things." (just sarcastic)

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Posted

I think the reason Lord Recluse is freely able to assault American soil without fear of retaliation is because America is a little b@#$% in City of-verse. Being so used to never having to fight on our own country's soil, America was utterly shocked when Rikti dropped in for a quick 'hello' and proceeded to f#$% the United States a new one. Then they did it again years later and are continuing to press war on us from the inside.

Meanwhile, the Council, fifth Column, and Nemesis have more bases than there are legitimate businesses in the United States and assassinate the president multiple times a day along with Malta. Ever wonder why we haven't heard from the President of the United States in city of? It's because the guy keeps getting killed and America hasn't elected it's president in twelve years.

Then Praetoria comes along and despite Cole declaring war on Primal earth, he sets his sights on smashing America first. Combine this with Arachnos and Warburg launching nukes at the US every other day and the country's been fighting a multiple front war since the Rikti Invasion.

Hell, the entire military's probably been compromised by spies of various villain organizations to the point where Melvin Langley (Super Spy!) was the only guy you could have trusted.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbullfrog View Post
Ok, If i understand their status correctly, Longbow is a private organization that the UN has uses as their defacto peacekeeping force. It's legality is based largely on it's connection to Ms. Liberty (and by extension, Statesman.)

The US government has no direct control over Longbow and, as such, are under no obligation to do anything about their occupation of Ft. Darwin. Having said that, the US government could completely disavow the organization if Arachnos decided to claim its sovereign rights to beat the holy hell out of them.

Personally, since I'm not too fond of Libby or her Longbow toy soldiers, I'd be happy to claim a spot on a nearby rooftop and watch the fireworks if they did decide to nuke her and longbow from orbit.


fixed and bolded.

I'm . . . not a fan of those thugs or their leader either.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post

I just want the game to be consistent with its own lore.
Yeah cause that happens regularly with City of Heroes lore. . . .


/sarcasm

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
I think the reason Lord Recluse is freely able to assault American soil without fear of retaliation is because America is a little b@#$% in City of-verse. Being so used to never having to fight on our own country's soil, America was utterly shocked when Rikti dropped in for a quick 'hello' and proceeded to f#$% the United States a new one. Then they did it again years later and are continuing to press war on us from the inside.
And yet the country continues to thrive both economically and socially, with Paragon City being a beacon of progress despite its problems. I don't really know how you can say America has never had to fight on its own soil, considering the Nemesis has been starting internal wars since the 50s and the nation managed to rebuff and contain not one, but two invasions led by a vastly technologically-superior alien race. Not only that, but it also reverse-engineered alien technology and transformed Paragon City into a veritable stronghold, subdivided into sectors by nigh-impenetrable shield walls. Every time the walls go down, the Rikti invade in force, so they must be doing something.

There are no less than a dozen different terrorist and paramilitary organisations operating on US soil, seemingly every gangster has access to either black magic or cybernetics and an evil corporation owns much of the city, yet the government still manages to preserve law and order to such an extent that the city is in an economic upturn and the people prosperous. This doesn't strike me as a weak nation, merely a nation at war with crime and terrorism, but at the same time a nation that's doing pretty damn well for itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Ever wonder why we haven't heard from the President of the United States in city of? It's because the guy keeps getting killed and America hasn't elected it's president in twelve years.
Wait, where's THAT coming from? Last I heard, my Omega clearance was authorised by the vice president, which I assume means the country has an acting president for there to be a vice one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
Then Praetoria comes along and despite Cole declaring war on Primal earth, he sets his sights on smashing America first. Combine this with Arachnos and Warburg launching nukes at the US every other day and the country's been fighting a multiple front war since the Rikti Invasion.
Last I heard, Recluse lost complete control over his ballistic missiles to the Rogues of Warburg, and last I heard from them, they were having trouble controlling them, themselves. Yes, SSA 3 has a single missile launched at US soil, seemingly for no reason, but I didn't take it to be nuclear. Besides, if Arachnos was such a strong nuclear power, one would think a mention might have been made of this at some point, or otherwise Recluse might have used this as leverage, but he doesn't seem to be able to. And even so, the US has a number of counter-ICBM measures even with contemporary tech, and in the world of City of Heroes, they have access to alien technology from the future. The last I heard a nuke go off was when the statesman took one to the back of the head and then had to walk it off.

As for the Praetorians, all I've seen of their "invasion" has been a few easily-defeated incursions, a few moderate but ultimately unsuccessful incursions and a whole lot of invasions by Primal Earth heroes into Praetorian Earth where we wreck their ****. Over and over again.

The original Rikti invasion that crippled the world was in 2002. It's nearly 2012 now. That's more than enough time to rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

You guys got me thinking he would be killed off with the Statesman...

Bleep, I would like it a lot.

A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!

 

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A bit of minor necroposting her but a thought occurs to me.


Statesman dies as foretold. Marcus Cole (who may or may not have had an active part in that event) decides that the time is right to invade Primal Earth.

From his throneroom on Grandville, Lord Recluse decides that he's simply not going to have any of that and unleashes Arachnos' full might against the invaders to drive them off of HIS world.

After all, it really is Lord Recluse's world, we all just live on it. And the sooner we just accept that, the better things will be.

Meanwhile, from wherever he hangs out, Nemesis directs his troops to beging operations in Praetoria which, of course, he has been planning for some time. While Arachnos pounds on the Praetorians on this side of the dimentional gate, several Praetorian officials are quietly replaced by automatons and subtle changes start happening in that society which will, ultimately, lead to a more Nemesis friendly worldview.

Finding his military shattered from without and subverted from within, Marcus Cole and his remaining followers escape through a last dimentional portal to Werewolf world (recently abandoned as its last resident had to eat himself to survive) where they set up shop and vow to return to power....


You see? It all works out. Thanks to Lord Recluse

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel View Post
I think the reason Lord Recluse is freely able to assault American soil without fear of retaliation is because America is a little b@#$% in City of-verse. Being so used to never having to fight on our own country's soil, America was utterly shocked when Rikti dropped in for a quick 'hello' and proceeded to f#$% the United States a new one. Then they did it again years later and are continuing to press war on us from the inside.
Actually, that's false.

The 5th Column and thus by extention Nazi Germany DID invade Paragon City and thus US soil. They took out the truly Gigantic hero Atlas while they were over here too, it just so happens that Paragon City is the launching point for so many super heroes that the 5th Column and the Nazis got beaten back but only after Atlas's death.

Edit:
Right, thinking about it, Lord Recluse is pretty much safe from a killing off any time soon. Why?

He's too pivotal to Villainside storyline. Statesman can be killed off, his taskforce given to someone else and someone step up to replace him in the Freedom Phalanx, though it will cause a retiring of the 'Save Statesman' story arc (meaning the new AND the old one will be in Oroborous for added weirdness). At most, a taskforce and two storylines need a through rewrite everything else is spring cleaning.

Recluse though, Recluse is kind of the glue that holds the Rogue Isles together. Without him Arachnos goes into a power struggle as the four remaining heads of Arachnos duke it out to be 'top villain'. This involves a WoW Cataclysm level of rewrite for villainside, whole zones will need to be changed, masses upon masses of story arcs need to be rewritten, maps will need to be altered because I doubt that the tower in Grandville would be left standing after the four Patrons rumble throughout it.

What little law and order would be smashed to the ground, the Islands would each become their own little state, Mercy would be even more of a dive than it is now with the city in ruins due to lack of Arachnos guarding it. The Snakes would rise once more to roam the streets.

Port Oakes, I'm not entirely sure what would happen there.

Sharkshead would be run by the Family and Consortium but without Arachnos backing those striking workers would see a true glimmer of hope and rise up enmasse and probably overrun the area, with only the Island mansion left as a holdout for the family. Leaving the rest of Sharkshead to be a battleground between workers and Freakshow (who would thrive in this situation, after all anarchy with a side perchant for easily accessible murder, looting and whatever else the Freakshow get upto when they're not being lolzy).

Cap Au...well I see that as Dr Aeon run, after all he's powerful and crazy enough to employ a lot of the mad scientists who use to work for Arachnos, expect it to remain largely the same but the city guarded by robots instead of Arachnos.

Nerva...well..Nerva would be pretty much lost to Longbow apart from the jungle area which would remain in CoT hands.

St. Martial would remain in Family hands, they're stake is just too big here, it is their main base of operations, if the situation in Sharkshead goes badly, they'd just pull out all their guys (apart from the Mansion) and focus on making sure St. Martial is secure.

Grandville would be in ruins, it would be the center of all the focus between the warring patrons, the once towering spires and platforms would be reduced to bloodstained rubble as the fighting continued to be proclaimed the new supervillain numero uno, with the players stepping in to demonstrate that THEY are the ones incharge now.

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Posted

QR: I miss Lord Recluse and think he was a lot more fun that anyone in Praetoria. Recluse is epic. Cole is rather bland.

Plus, Recluse WAS right: jello-wrestling does not qualify as a mandate to govern.

I would be good with Recluse nuking Fort Darwin from orbit. Its polluted now, it needs to die. Longbow cooties, ugh.

 

Posted

Recluse is a far more honest villain.

He tells you right up front "Hi, I'm a evil overlord. Keep that in mind and we'll get along fine."

Cole is one of those contemptable "I'm doing this for your own good." persons.

I'd rather see Recluse overthrow Cole and take over management of Praetoria. It would actually do the people there some good. None of this "we control what you hear, see AND think. And, oh yes, its for your own good." business

Long Live Lord Recluse.

Every hero needs an honest villain, and he's big enough for all of us.

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Posted

with Statesman dead in the next SSA that could role out the red carpet for LR to make a come back and possibly an invasion battle between Cole and LR.

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Posted

That's what I'm seeing.

Cole: Bow to me and I'll solve all your problems.

Recluse: Get off my world.


Epic battle follows.

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Posted

The place: Grandville.

Lord Recluse and the four patrons square off against Emperor Cole and all his empowered lackies.

Cole: Bow to me and you'll live, fight and you'll die, I won't make the mistake the weaker version of me did by letting you live. I've killed you once before and I shall do it again.

Recluse: You think me foolish to come to face you unprepared. A little history lesson for you, you lack the wisdom even this dimensions Marcus had, he never approached me, he dare not set foot into the Isles after we beat him back the first time. You wish to know why?

Cole: Because he was a coward!

Recluse: So very wrong, because he knew that if he did, I had an ace up my sleeve, one that he often dispatched teams of heroes to bring down. Dr Aeon, ACTIVATE THE WEB!

Four towers come out of the ground.

Cole: What is this, why are my powers draining away from me?!

Recluse: You see, before you came along with your interdimensional war, distracting hero and villain alike, it drew heroes away from stopping my plan, you see Marcus frequently sent teams of heroes to bring down my Web every time it was activated but this little war allowed me the time to rebuild it, rethink it and to perfect it. Marcus could never approach me here for the very same reason you are now helpless at my feet.

Emperor Cole: Those Paragon Heroes will not stand for this.

Recluse: Oh but they will...for now anyway, yes no doubt they will stop me in time (alluding to the replacement of the Statesman Taskforce) but at this very moment, I am as much a friend as I can be. Now run away, I would kill you but I would not to be the one to deny the Paragon heroes the opportunity, after all bloodlust is but one of the many starts down a path of Darkness...

Emperor Cole and his lackies teleport away.

Hero dialogue:
Recluse: Begone, you have played your part at this moment in time and unless you wish to see what the web can do while fully active. I suggest you retreat, [dialogue shows if have completed the Statesmans taskforce/] after all the old way of stopping it has been nullified, I have made sure that if destroyed another tower will rise to replace it. [/optional dialogue over] unless you feel the need to see if you can take me on...which you are welcome to. (player can exit the mission or go down trying to take out a fully web buffed Recluse).

Villain dialogue:
Recluse: Ah, you have played your part and played it well. [optional dialogue if completed the Lord Recluse Strikeforce/] You earned my respect long ago and that still holds true now, we have shown that no Marcus Cole can stand before our might [/optional dialogue ends] Now go, show this Praetoria what a true villain can be, sow your seeds of destruction and hatred among them and let them tremble in fear!

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