Remember that guy? Lord Recluse?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 02:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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That is something I like about the Tip missions. For the most part, you're battling what I refer to as "freelance" villains, that is villains who arn't really part of any major group but have their own schemes and can sometimes rustle up some muscle from the local Freakshow gangs or Council cell or whatever when they need it. A lot of player character villains fall into this category (not all, of course, but I'm speaking very broadly). Always felt the game needed more stories where you're foiling the schemes of some villain who's not part of some meta-human army or gang the size of an infantry division or something, but just a supervillain with a plan and some minions for muscle.|
Originally Posted by Arnabas
While I certainly enjoy fighting large organisations like Arachnos, Fifth Column and such, I would like to have more stand-alone villains. I personally rather liked seeing the Rogue's Gallery villains that appeared in the tip missions (even if they were always backed up by existing villain groups). When the SSA started and there was the mysterious mastermind talking off-camera, I was very excited at the prospect of a new villain who didn't have to rely on any of the existing groups, beyond manipulating them. I was really hoping to see someone entirely new, with a cool back-story.
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| There was one moment in a Praetoria mission though, where Arachnos soldiers show up and make some comment to the effect that they will glady die to forward Recluse's goals. The way it was said (I won't even try to paraphrase it, as I don't remember it very well) actually made me see Arachnos as a threat for the first time in a long while, thinking of them as blindly loyal and willing to sacrifice everything for Recluse. It was actually a cool little moment. |
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He features in the new tutorial, and Arachnos has quite a big part in the new Atlas content and in some of the ongoing trianing missions.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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You know what? That's a great idea. AeonTech already is an Arachnos front, and at the same time is a legitimate organisation with the kind of morals to make Clarissa Von Dorn blush. Recluse already has an infiltration tool ready for use. In fact, if Arachnos agents are spotted coming and going from an AeonTech facility? Well, so what? Arachnos is the ruling authority in the Rogue Isles where AeonTech is based, so their police force are on sight to provide premises security, as well as to handle shipping and maintenance. They have a plausible reason to be there.|
Originally Posted by Kadmon
That said, I'd like to see Arachnos kinda horn in on Crey's territory a bit, with Aeon's company as their front. Yes, we as heroes know that Aeon and everything he touches is just another Arachnos plot, but somehow I don't think they'd let his Architect Entertainment buildings be all over the place if this were common knowledge. Beyond that, it's well known that Aeon has developed a geothermal power plant that VASTLY outstrips any other geothermal plant on the planet, so he MUST have some good tech (See: Marshall Brass, Virgil Tarikoss). I'd think that people would be clamoring to have him set up a plant in the middle of Grendel's Gulch. With the recent volcanic activity it's seen, it could easily be a new power plant site to help reduce the cost of power in Paragon City.
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Using AeonCorp as a front would be the smart thing for Recluse to do, because it gives him access to Paragon City in a way that heroes can't so much as touch him. So long as it resembles a legitimate business - which I gather it actually is, at least on the side - then it's perfect!
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Originally Posted by BYiro
I get the feeling that Lord Recluse doesn't even care about legalities. Even if you caught him shoplifting on camera with a confession and signed statements from the Freedom Phalanx, the Arachnos Lawyer Corps would keep any legal action from progressing well into the 25th century.
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Well, if a UN member nation performed a large scale land invasion of another member nation, caused wide-spread destruction, murdered and kidnapped civilians and started setting bases of operation, that kind of support and protection would cease overnight, and Recluse has neither the resources nor the personnel to fight a continental super power. And the thing is, he's not going to fight JUST a continental super power, but likely all the NATO nations, as well. The last thing Recluse needs is to be the next Saddam, hence why he needs to play the politics, not spit in the face of willing suspension of disbelief.
You're right, the Crey corporation is able to keep up a legitimate front despite quite a few very obvious crimes committed, but do you know how they manage? They cut their losses and let their people take the fall. It's always a conspiracy within the company, always some employee's personal agenda and the Countess simply never knows about it. Crey manages to keep a legitimate face because none of their crimes ever trace back to the Countess. Recluse was IN Paragon City. He punched the Statesman on top of my head. He was yelling taunts and insults. It's pretty hard to claim he didn't know about this. It's pretty hard to claim his army did not invade the shores of a sovereign nation.
You can't expect me to see these things and still take the in-game reality seriously if it's not consistent with itself.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Arachnos is by far my favourite villain group, they just have a great set of looks (Fortunatas, Tarantulas and Wolf/Bane/Crab spiders all ook awesome, we don't talk about the Mu Mystics)
Having them show up in Praetoria was one of the most awesome mments in thegame (second only to the Fifth Column base in the ITF)
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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And why on earth should a major villain and his group feature comparatively prominently in new low-level content only to sputter out in the rest of the game?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
He features in the new tutorial, and Arachnos has quite a big part in the new Atlas content and in some of the ongoing trianing missions.
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Because updating the game is a rolling process? |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
And why on earth should a major villain and his group feature comparatively prominently in new low-level content only to sputter out in the rest of the game?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Because the updates on the game have been rolling along for quite some time while Recluse and Arachnos sit on the sidelines? MMOs are dynamic environments. Neglected content withers away and is difficult to revitalize.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Because updating the game is a rolling process?
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From the point of view of a new player, Lord Recluse and company are ubiquitous redside. |
Originally Posted by TrueGentleman
Because the updates on the game have been rolling along for quite some time while Recluse and Arachnos sit on the sidelines? MMOs are dynamic environments. Neglected content withers away and is difficult to revitalize.
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Blueside, agents of Arachnos feature in the Twinshot arcs up to 20ish, then take a break (except perhaps in Tip/Safeguards, I'm not sure) and then come back when you hit the big leagues around level 40.
Makes a reasonable amount of sense to me.
In any case, I'm sure we will see dozens of new arcs featuring Recluse and Company between now and the next Big Crunch
As a matter of fact, I will be surprised if there are not new Arachnos arcs/Recluse Schemes in 2012, which should encompass issues 22-24 or so.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
He features in the new tutorial, and Arachnos has quite a big part in the new Atlas content and in some of the ongoing trianing missions.
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Thats all well and good but say a new player is shown this massive evil organisation, where else are they going to encounter them blue side apart from low level missions?
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Except, looking at real UN politics, I suspect that (as long as Arachnos mostly leaves them alone) Russia, China, and other nations who don't really like the US would support and/or shield them, just to give the US a stick in the eye/pebble in its shoe/etc right on its doorstep.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Well, if a UN member nation performed a large scale land invasion of another member nation, caused wide-spread destruction, murdered and kidnapped civilians and started setting bases of operation, that kind of support and protection would cease overnight, and Recluse has neither the resources nor the personnel to fight a continental super power. And the thing is, he's not going to fight JUST a continental super power, but likely all the NATO nations, as well. The last thing Recluse needs is to be the next Saddam, hence why he needs to play the politics, not spit in the face of willing suspension of disbelief.
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Also, IMO and for what it's worth, leaving out all the super-powered stuff, what you're describing is not unlike what Cuba used to be. And we did come as close as we ever have to (nuclear) war over that one. In that case, of course, both sides backed down and decided it wasn't worth it.
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Faces of the City
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No doubt working even more feverishly to further his plans to access the Well's power without having to be polite about it. The war against Praetoria has created a ton of useful test data after all.
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Originally Posted by IolitePhoenix
I'm hoping that some of the story content in the DA revamp will touch on what Lord Recluse has been doing in regards to the Praetorians.
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@Mindshadow
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We'll have to wait and see |
Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Thats all well and good but say a new player is shown this massive evil organisation, where else are they going to encounter them blue side apart from low level missions?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Ubiquitous, yet inert. Mercy Island was the first truly significant update for Arachnos that we've had in ages (and quite enjoyable at that). Then it's back to the status quo, with content that hasn't been refreshed in years on Red Side or new expansions on Gold Side in which Arachnos is a bit player and Recluse is sitting out the conflict despite having another Marcus Cole to hate.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
From the point of view of a new player, Lord Recluse and company are ubiquitous redside.
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Then again, we've had the same complaints about Statesman, who's been on the sidelines ever since Jack Emmert vamoosed. It's as though the devs can't juggle multiple projects in the lore. Their expansions and updates are all or nothing, depending on what has their attention at present. Incidentally, this is why I'm predicting Statesman is Who Will Die - the devs can't figure out what to do with him, so they're going to kill him off.
This might be a good place to compile ideas of what Arachnos should be up to next time we get new arcs from them.
- I like the idea of an arc surrounding the Architect Entertainment system, but it should be one that firmly establishes the system as beyond Arachnos control and legit, so my characters don't feel dumb using it. An arc where you help Positron flush the system of any backdoors (perhaps in a Tron-like environment with appropriate enemies) would be cool. Such an arc should absolutely NOT reveal that we are all dumb for creating and playing arcs because now we have all been cloned, etc. A creepy "...or is it?" at the end is fine, and probably mandatory.
- I like the idea of an arc about taking Recluse to task about his invasions and actually dealing with the Longbow invasions of his land as well. Maybe even establishing a defacto agreement that this is between Cole and Richter, and neither can really call in the UN to help. Bonus points for including an optional Alignment mission where you hear both sides make their cases, and choose between them. The thrust of the mission could be that the UN has chosen you to investigate the various invasions and advise them on a course of action.
- One thing that might be cool would be to set up a big betrayal at the end of the Praetoria storyline. Recluse invades Praetoria in the final push to down Marcus Cole. At a critical moment, he pulls his forces out of Praetoria completely, attacks and seizes Portal Corp and shuts down all of the portals, leaving you and everyone trapped in Praetoria with an angry Hamidon and him in control of Paragon City. Muahahaha! Of course, immediately thereafter, the Coming Storm forces him to retreat back to the isles, leaving a shaken populace in his wake. Naturally, he can claim his seizing the city was to secure it against invasion...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I think the devs have outright stated that the reason they don't really focus much on the lore behind AE is that they don't want the heroes to feel dumb for using it. It's, oddly enough, one of Aeon's more legit and above-board projects, which I kind of like. I like the idea that a mad scientist can make perfectly productive things that arn't automatically eeeviiiillll on occasion.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
- I like the idea of an arc surrounding the Architect Entertainment system, but it should be one that firmly establishes the system as beyond Arachnos control and legit, so my characters don't feel dumb using it. An arc where you help Positron flush the system of any backdoors (perhaps in a Tron-like environment with appropriate enemies) would be cool. Such an arc should absolutely NOT reveal that we are all dumb for creating and playing arcs because now we have all been cloned, etc. A creepy "...or is it?" at the end is fine, and probably mandatory.
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But that would be cool with us stepping "backstage" into a Tron-like environment full of code and digital information and whatnot.
You want to know the secret of the world? It's this: Save it, and it'll repay you, every second of every day.
@Dr. Reverend - My DeviantArt Gallery
Crow Call - Gods of the Golden Age
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AE a project of BOTH Dr. Aeon and Crey Corp?|
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
I think the devs have outright stated that the reason they don't really focus much on the lore behind AE is that they don't want the heroes to feel dumb for using it. It's, oddly enough, one of Aeon's more legit and above-board projects, which I kind of like. I like the idea that a mad scientist can make perfectly productive things that arn't automatically eeeviiiillll on occasion.
But that would be cool with us stepping "backstage" into a Tron-like environment full of code and digital information and whatnot. |
I can see them copying the "data" about various heroes who use it for illegitimate means while still having AE as a legitimate business.
Just saying.
EDIT:
Actually I'm not wrong:
Architect Entertainment is a company created by Dr. Thaddeus Aeon AQSA, with Crey Industries funding. The prime motive of the company is to bring opportunity to all citizens of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles to create their very own pockets of theoretical existence for others to experience first hand as a new form of entertainment.
Key factors in the origins of the company include:
Possibility of new perspective on how to deal with Professor Echo.
Revenge on Television for forcing Dr. Aeon to write a scientific report encouraging everyone to watch more television.
To follow up the commercial success of NutriPaste.
Dr Aeon and Positron have both noted individually that Architect has the potential for great beneficial and humanitarian results throughout the world.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Architect_Entertainment
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Someone forgets on a regular basis to inform the US of those two facts.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
He controls a sovereign nation which is not subject to US law ... the US isn't the only country in the world, and is still subject to United Nations law
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And as far as military invasions are concerned, Longbow (a group that last I checked answers to the US government) has been fighting a guerilla campaign in the Rogue Isles since Recluse set up shop there. America has no business pointing fingers at Arachnos for terrorism as long as that's going on.
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QFTDET|
Originally Posted by Black Zot
Someone forgets on a regular basis to inform the US of those two facts.
And as far as military invasions are concerned, Longbow (a group that last I checked answers to the US government) has been fighting a guerilla campaign in the Rogue Isles since Recluse set up shop there. America has no business pointing fingers at Arachnos for terrorism as long as that's going on. |
(quoted for the damned epic truth)
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The UN is nothing more than a debating society. It may pass resolutions but it has ZERO power to enforce them. And it isn't just the US that tends to ignore it. Think Bosnia and Rwanda for examples where the UN literally had troops on the ground yet did absolutely nothing to stop genocidal warfare.
PS I wouldn't say Recluse has his fingers in everything. He's really only had two major plans for seizing big time power: The Web which gets thwarted in the Statesman TF and Project Destiny which is abandoned long before it's final stages when player villains demonstrate that it's not such a good idea after all. Compare him to Nemesis who's probably got hundreds of plans going at any one time. Or the Center who's playing his cards so close to the chest that we still don't know what it is he really wants. He even says (in a hero alignment mission) that heroes should appreciate the effort he goes to to keep Requiem and the other Nictus constrained.
_________
@Inquisitor
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The UN is a bit different in CoH World. For one thing, it has it's own army in the form of Vanguard, which is the most powerful, best equipped, armed and trained military force on the planet (this counts the meta-human members, like the players) and has a world-wide reach (there are still Rikti under Rome, for instance). However, the Vanguard's scope is limited. It's official position on Arachnos seems to be "stay out of our way and let us do our jobs."
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Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
The UN is nothing more than a debating society. It may pass resolutions but it has ZERO power to enforce them. And it isn't just the US that tends to ignore it. Think Bosnia and Rwanda for examples where the UN literally had troops on the ground yet did absolutely nothing to stop genocidal warfare.
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Crow Call - Gods of the Golden Age
I have a loyalist "hero" and a straight up arachnos agent (two of them). I dont want my ability to play straight up villains tromped on. If they kill off Cole so completely that I can no longer be a praetorian loyalist, or an arachnos loyalist, I will be very unhappy.
-------
Hew in drag baby
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I think folks know this. The point was that if thy passed a reslution condemning Recluse for invading Galaxy City, it would be hypocritical to not do so for longbow invading the Rogue Isles . . . constantly.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
The UN is nothing more than a debating society. It may pass resolutions but it has ZERO power to enforce them. And it isn't just the US that tends to ignore it. Think Bosnia and Rwanda for examples where the UN literally had troops on the ground yet did absolutely nothing to stop genocidal warfare.
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I'll leave what folks think about the UN's hypocrisy or lack thereof, aside for now.
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I doubt Cole will be killed, but I don't think he'll still be in charge of Prae in a year or two, if this goes where I think it's going.
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Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch
I have a loyalist "hero" and a straight up arachnos agent (two of them). I dont want my ability to play straight up villains tromped on. If they kill off Cole so completely that I can no longer be a praetorian loyalist, or an arachnos loyalist, I will be very unhappy.
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Originally Posted by Black Zot
And as far as military invasions are concerned, Longbow (a group that last I checked answers to the US government) has been fighting a guerilla campaign in the Rogue Isles since Recluse set up shop there. America has no business pointing fingers at Arachnos for terrorism as long as that's going on.
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And here is the thing exactly.
I'm pretty sure Longbows presence in the Isles, actually grants a lot of leeway regarding Arachnos presence in Paragon.
IIRC Siren's Call is a similar situation to Nerva, where it's part of the place but not directly connected.
Faultline might be similar as well in that the area behind the Dam doesn't count.
Honestly though I don't think Recluse and Arachnos ever really got the chance to be involved in the Blueside storyline.
As for Galaxy City,I assume a state of emergency was declared there, UN had to call in some help to deal with the mess as Vanguard is stretched too thin dealing with the Rikti. So the Isles having some experience with Shivans answered the call. We now have a perfectly legit reason for Recluse to be there with Diplomatic protections applying.
As for Twinshot's Arc I've only run the first arc and from a story perspective Arachnos has no bearing on the plot.
So we have the STF, the Silos TF and Faultline as heroes dealing with an Arachnos threat from a story perspective(not counting paper missions).
Seriously, though, the climax of Statesman's Task Force seems to have deflated him, and the preferred ones for grinding are Lady Grey and Imperious, just as the preferred high-end zone for levelling is the Ritki War Zone rather than Recluse's Victory (and hey, what's Arachnos doing in the former, apart from standing around?). At the present, his raison d'etre is merely hating Statesman, something that's hardly unique, either among NPCs or players.
For a villain with a great deal of presence in the game and a clear philosophy as a motivation, Lord Recluse is yet another lore asset with untapped potential. If we're lucky, once the Coming Storm shows up, he might start taking an active role in the game again.