Thoughts on Trials after i12.5 - Mob Rule

Well, of the new trials, I'd say MoM has the weakest set of "better rewards". Not counting Astral Merits and components for badges (which all the trials award), here's what we get: Keyes has the 2/1 Empyrean Merit schedule and a higher probability of a Rare or Very Rare component drop. UG has the 2/1 Empyrean Merit schedule and guarantees a Rare or Very Rare component. TPN has the 2/1 Empyrean Merit schedule and 60 threads for getting past phase 3. MoM only has the 2/1 Empyrean Merit schedule.

Now, I've read quite a number of posts here in which folks have said they really like MoM. I don't understand why, honestly. It is tedious, though not to the same degree as UG, but at least if you commit to UG and succeed you are guaranteed a Rare or Very Rare for your efforts. Completing MoM yields less than a Keyes, on average, and Keyes isn't so reliant on taunt control and ranged dps, making it more doable for arbitrary league composition

Personally, I'd run Keyes and UG all day if I was after the bigger rewards. BAF and Lambda for the common stuff. MoM is sort of a waste of time to me, and TPN is one I am willing to just wait on until my local (i.e., Virtue) trial community has it all figured out and can lead it with reasonably high expectations of success (the one and only time I went on one I did everything right for the job I was assigned--Telepathist eradication--and yet the trial failed in the final stage anyway). And that's only if I really want those 60 threads...otherwise, what's the point (aside from the vague illusion of variety)?

This works on the assumption that people won't flock to the small team/solo path. If people do less frequent trials even with greater rewards it may not be able to keep pace if the majority prefers the small team path.

The rewards and time-gating for the 2 paths can be adjusted until they're at the right balance for the Trials.

Riiiiight...

Like they've adjusted merit rewards on TFs. Eventually something will be left to languish away from player interest. Attempts to herd players away and toward certain ways to play have not only been ineffective, but will eventually become destructive to maintaining the playerbase and community.

They can add all kinds of stuff as Trial exclusvie unlocks, like costume parts, auras, emotes, temp power and so on, on top of the faster progress they give.

Exactly. Or those epic bits that many people weren't happy about being locked behind Empyrean merits.

I thought you said they were fun?

I like the way your posts acknowledge the fact that its the rewards that keep these alive but cannot bring yourself to admit it.

ps:

Hm, I haven't noticed this, I must say. Is that a documented thing? If this is actually happening rather than it just seeming that way, then that doescindeed blow.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I don't know wether to dread or look forward to any trial that would make GG say 'this trial sucks' lol. It would either be exactly what I want or so far further up the Suckage Curve that it would blow my mind

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I'm not sure if its documented but I believe I have experienced it first hand. During my first or second TPN a leader asked my group to stay outside and keep Maelstrom busy. At one point, Maelstrom was "chased away," and vanished from the map. My group was standing around waiting for him to come back when suddenly he reappeared on top of me and killed me instantly with an animation that looked sort of like Crane Kick. I'm not sure if that is the mechanic being referred to or not, but it did really surprise me. This was on a level 53 Ice/Fire Dominator on the day or day after TPN was rolled onto the live servers.

Wait for Issue 22. Any serious incarnating I need to do (minus my first level 50 blaster for pvp reasons) is waiting for that.

Not unless the time lock is account wide instead of character specific.

And each and every one of those things will drive away more paying customers.

That's his Teleport Kicks. It's WAI.

Fortunately there is a countermeasure, it's even the same countermeasure you've been using for the last 50 levels - get a tank. A single player in melee range of him can shut down his ability to teleport. He won't teleport to kick anyone while in melee range of anyone else. (that's why he has an ability to KB everyone in the final battle - to get people out of melee range so he can use his kicks)

Ah, that's why I've never seen it - there's always beena tank or two keeping him focused.

If your League doesn't have some tanking ability, thenthat's a very unlucky spread of ATs you've collected.

Eco

EDIT: I'm not speaking directly to you, Leese - that was a general 'you'

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I really can't blame you for that attitude, BI. The studio's own actions bring this kind of cynicism, and I agree with you completely on it. I will be a very surprised man if the "solo option" is actually meaningful and actually supported, because based on what I've seen so far, I highly suspect they'll come up with some way to make it impossible for me and you to solo our way into any form of Incarnate power whatsoever.

Far as I'm concerned, the onus is on the studio to prove my cynicism wrong this time around. We'll see how that goes.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I wouldn't disagree with you, but I still hold that the Devs will be blasted for their next bit of writing by the usual suspects, no matter what they come up with. As someone who plays for the story and the fun of endgame content, I don't particularly find the storylines any less engaging than in the past (with the exception of the later parts of First Ward). Outside of characters outright belittling my character, nothing's been offensive or particularly stupid. Do note that I don't play to be offended, or to find something to complain about on the forums - this seems to be the rage these days.

No one's saying players in general should be taken down a peg. But players that have such an ego that they'd take personal offense from something as indirect and benign as a foe from the past who's now been empowered by the Well provides a challenge in end-game content? Yes, those players SHOULD get some perspective.

I have to add this:

* Punish players for being defeated. (MoM Trial)

I agree with this entirely with this quote. Sadly the designers seem unwilling or unable to comprehend that their players are not all munchkin min-maxers.

The developers of the Incarnate Trials are arch-typical Killer GMs.
The word "Pessimistic" replaced something that the forums would be frowned upon by the moderation team.

The "challenges" starting in Keyes on reek of this attitude that the players need a cheating game to keep the min-maxers happy. However the only thing you are doing is making the trials less fun for everyone else.

Not naming names, but one of the developers responsible of the later trials IS a long time player that DOES min-max his builds. Additionally a lot of players in the Issue 20 Closed Beta also fall into the category of being "min-maxers". Guess what? A large portion of this game's players aren't min-maxers, and to treat them as such is a good way to alienate those players.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

This mechanic strikes me as a design cop-out. It is one thing to make high-risk dangers something a league has to consider in its tactics, but I'm not sure I see the value in making unavoidable trips to the hospital one of them.

Well, insofar as the level mechanic works at all, I'm not sure I see the problem. Making the enemies higher level is a time-honored way to make them more challenging. This has been true, I imagine, since the dawn of the modern MMO. If you are, perhaps unwittingly, pointing out the problem with a level-based system in general, then (a) I would agree with you whole-heartedly, and (b) suggest that it is a subject for a different thread, simply because of the vastness of its implications.

I knew this was coming long before I ever stepped into my first iTrial. Everyone on the forums talks about two set IOs more than any other: LotG +7.5% rech, and Karma -KB prot. It doesn't take long before one realizes that frankenslotting at least two of those Karma suckers is absolutely required for the iTrials. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing I leave to greater minds than mine to debate. I figure it is what it is. *shrug*

There will always be newbies who don't know what to do. There will always be veterans who know what the league thinks they should do, but do something else anyway because they feel they know better (and sometimes they do, but they don't get the necessary support to pull it off just right). And there will always be people who are just plain clueless and never figure out how to conduct themselves in the various trials, no matter how many times they do them. It is the nature of teaming in general, and large teams (leagues) in particular.

Sure, the trials could be designed with a little more wiggle room for mistakes and less-than-optimal play, but then these would fail to live up to the expectations of all the players accustomed to WoW raids (because clearly that is the raid model the devs think we all want from the trials).

Human nature. Immaturity abounds. I just try to ignore it and hope that the next league will be better. *shrug*

Yes, indeed. This is where we get the wonderful concept of "grinding" from. It seems to be an inescapable fact of life in an MMO. No other design philosophy is possible, apparently. And we are unlikely to ever get anything different. I know that sounds hopelessly pessimistic, but in 15 years of MMOs, we have yet to break out of these tired old paradigms established by Ultima Online and EverQuest, and "perfected" by WoW. As long as the "grind" continues to draw subscription fees, why in the world would the game devs ever change it?

Funny enough, this reminds me of the Spoony One's take of the last ride of the eponymous "Spoony Bard" through "Dungeonland." From what I can tell from the comments, their GM was improvising quite a bit, and EVERYTHING in Wonderland wanted them dead.

More to point, that's how I see it, as well, and that's a big reasons why I want nothing to do with iTrials. They seem designed to crush players through a cheating meat grinder and leave us no option but to min/max just to survive. And if we don't? Well, those last 50 levels of being awesome don't mean squat. In iStuff, WE are the minions.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.