The SLOW Titans??
By
Bosstone,
Posted on: 2011-12-08 11:39 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I think you are missing the whole point to Titan Weapons. Maybe roll a Mace character instead...
Check the animations and DPA on your attacks after that initial ponderous strike.
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Titan weapons are not actually very slow. Momentum builders are faster than attacks like thunderstrike, total focus and is on par with a lot of the attacks in BS, Warmace, battleaxe and then everything after your momentum builder is a whole pile faster. And the damage is *booooooom* big enough
The entire point of the whole set is about the Momentum mechanic, which is what you are complaining about.
Not only has it been mathematically proven to not be slower than other sets, Titan Weapons actually has two sets of animations for all but two of the powers because of the Momentum mechanic.
...although, I do kind of agree that it is silly that you don't get Momentum if you miss when it comes to theme. I don't think the set would be OP if it always granted Momentum after a slow attack if it misses or not.
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Cast times for TW with and without momentum:
Defensive Sweep: 2.20/1.30
Crushing Blow: 2.00/1.30
Titan Sweep: 2.43/1.30
Follow Through: 1.00 (not usable without Momentum)
Rend Armor: 2.30/1.30
Whirling Smash: 1.00 (not usable without Momentum)
Arc of Destruction: 2.70/1.50
The SLOWEST power (AoD), which is a massive damaging cone btw, is still faster than Concentrated Strike, and much faster than Total Focus and Thunder Strike for example. And you don't get fast versions of these attacks in their sets like in TW.
I disagree somewhat that if your first attack misses you should still build momentum. Have you seen in baseball when a guy 'whiffs' on a pitch, often the batter is spun around in an awkward position where if he strikes the ball even for a foul, he doesn't seem to have so much 'misplaced(?)' momentum. That's what I was thinking at any rate.
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I agree with Psylenz. If anything hitting with a weapon designed to bone break would slow momentum not build it. Hit or Miss momentum could be gained. If anything after certain attacks are used there could be a momentum reset, as those attacks do not flow into other attacks.
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To add to this...1.3 is faster than most of Martial Arts attacks (which are 1.6/1.67 seconds).|
Originally Posted by Kioshi
Cast times for TW with and without momentum:
Defensive Sweep: 2.20/1.30 Crushing Blow: 2.00/1.30 Titan Sweep: 2.43/1.30 Follow Through: 1.00 (not usable without Momentum) Rend Armor: 2.30/1.30 Whirling Smash: 1.00 (not usable without Momentum) Arc of Destruction: 2.70/1.50 The SLOWEST power (AoD), which is a massive damaging cone btw, is still faster than Concentrated Strike, and much faster than Total Focus and Thunder Strike for example. And you don't get fast versions of these attacks in their sets like in TW. |
Titan Weapons is like using one of the best attack chains for sets that use their tier 9 attacks.
It's not slow, except for that momentum building attack.
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Speaking from a person who practices DAILY with polearms and greatswords the way these blows are thrown are completely different from what you imagine.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I disagree somewhat that if your first attack misses you should still build momentum. Have you seen in baseball when a guy 'whiffs' on a pitch, often the batter is spun around in an awkward position where if he strikes the ball even for a foul, he doesn't seem to have so much 'misplaced(?)' momentum. That's what I was thinking at any rate.
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It is NOT a baseball bat and the swings are closer to a golf swing which you can practice and not hit all day. I have to suspend martial accuracy when playing Titan weapons as the strikes with large weapons are swung with the body and not the arms. The arms add the extra crack of the strike at the end but used correctly a large weapon does not cause the spin around from a miss and in fact the miss is often used as a feint to move the opponents guard.
In the mechanics of this game I have to assume that all the users are self taught weapons users and just muscle everything rather than float and let momentum and gravity do all the hard work for you.
I just taught a class this summer on "soft" polearm fighting in which the given was you are a woman or small framed man fighting against a much larger opponent. In this case they were quite surprised at the number of techniques that a smaller person could use to completely overwhelm a larger person. It is quite fun to see a slight 110 pound lady fighter able to counter and reverse a 250+ man
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Concept wise getting momentum from misses makes sense, and I don't think they believe it's a balance issue. It's more of a technical limitation, since there's not a direct way for a power to give you a buff if it misses.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
...although, I do kind of agree that it is silly that you don't get Momentum if you miss when it comes to theme. I don't think the set would be OP if it always granted Momentum after a slow attack if it misses or not.
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The only way I can think of to do it is to make all the powers autohit and play games with the effect requirements, but that's a bit of a hack and may cause other issues.
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How do you explain how fury works then?
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
It's more of a technical limitation, since there's not a direct way for a power to give you a buff if it misses.
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You do realize that the cast times are faster pre-momentum than some of Energy Melee's cast times, right?
The fact that most of Titan Weapons is massive AoE and can be cast 'very fast' when momentum is up is crazy good.
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This is where you are mistaken. Once you have Momentum, your attacks are FASTER than other attacks from other powersets. The three fast attacks are Titan Weapon's gimmick. The initial slow one is the price we pay for it.
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Originally Posted by dart77
3.) Though the speed of the attacks DO revert to normal (like every other power set), that ONLY happens IF you land the attack?!?! Thats what we call "Momentum"? Momentum is "the speed or force of forward movement of an object". And after that first swing, hit or miss, I am moving, baby!! |
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Fury is an inherent power that counts the number of times you activate a click power or are attacked by an enemy in a given server tick and sets an attribute on your character.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
How do you explain how fury works then?
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A second inherent grants you a damage buff based on the value of that attribute. A third inherent constantly reduces the amount of that attribute to make it decay.
That's how fury works. ;-)
An inherent could be designed that is granted to characters which have Titan Weapons as a powerset, but AFAIK there's no way to count activations of only certain powers, so you'd have the issue of things like Brawl or Air Superiority giving you momentum...
It was a rhetorical question.
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Originally Posted by dart77
First off let me say that I think the new Titans Power Set is totally wicked! But I can see an area where it can use some major improvement. It's so ridiculously slow, it's almost too painful to use (both mentally to me and physically to that poor geometry laden, pixilated character in your game). Let me splane, Lucy.
1.) The initial wind up to attack is so painfully slow that it takes more than a few seconds just to deliver the first (hopeful) blow. And even when I do, it does no more damage than any other weapon (as far as I can tell). When I see an enemy I get instantly excited to attack, but a millisecond later I get exasperated because I know it's going to take forever just to swing this massive thing! And within that time the enemy would have struck me at least 2 times?? So I walk away in Titan same 2.) If I am with another player at least I know that I may be protected (imagine a Titan begging for protection) while I prepare to swing my epically amazing weapon of mass destruction (in theory again it doesnt do that much damage, but it looks cool). Again I am forced to walk away in Titan shame 3.) Though the speed of the attacks DO revert to normal (like every other power set), that ONLY happens IF you land the attack?!?! Thats what we call "Momentum"? Momentum is "the speed or force of forward movement of an object". And after that first swing, hit or miss, I am moving, baby!! Long story short, can you PLEASE kill the painfully long wind up on the Titan Power Set? I'll even take less power for a normal, 4G speed, basic attack pace. Heck ill mail homemade cookies to the Devs personally to gain this for my fellow players!! I'm serious! Common Devs, old buddies " dont let me down." |
I agree that the 'windup time' seems slow in the early levels when nothing is slotted. However when I got my TW/Ele brute to 12 and slotted DOs everything changed.
I took Build Momentum and by lvl 13 it was 3-slotted with Recharge. Hit it charging in and you have 10 seconds where hits and misses are unimportant...you have Momentum regardless. This gives you a good attack chain at higher speed than almost anything else at the same level. Yes, it wears off but it's supposed to. Momentum is not like Fury...you can't sustain it forever or it would unbalance the set.
Play the set to at least lvl 22 (and SOs) before making final judgments. Some sets bloom slower than others and some just don't 'feel right' until you can play them at the SO level and higher.
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My TW scrapper is now level 36, and I now feel I have enough experience here to comment with, if not authority, at least an opinion not easily dismissed.
The difference between an attack with Momentum, and an attack without Momentum, is about one second. Sometimes, when I'm not particularly paying attention to my attack chain, Momentum seems to last for ten, or even fifteen seconds instead of only 5! Is this a bug? No. Is it because I've used Build Momentum? Also no. It's because I was hitting the next attack to come up, and Momentum had worn off, and I did the slow animation and didn't even notice. Yes, sometimes I miss the first attack, and have to do another slow one, and then it's really noticeable. And sometimes you really need to finish off that Paragon Protector before it stands back up and uses Elude, or hit the Sky Raider Engineer to stop his FFG, or etc etc, and the added delay makes a real difference. But most of the time it barely matters.
In actual play, TW is not a slow set. It just isn't.
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Oh I haven't bought the set because I don't have points and got enough alts to level, but trust me I've been preaching the same thing since Beta began and nobody listened, but they'll find out eventually.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
My TW scrapper is now level 36, and I now feel I have enough experience here to comment with, if not authority, at least an opinion not easily dismissed.
The difference between an attack with Momentum, and an attack without Momentum, is about one second. Sometimes, when I'm not particularly paying attention to my attack chain, Momentum seems to last for ten, or even fifteen seconds instead of only 5! Is this a bug? No. Is it because I've used Build Momentum? Also no. It's because I was hitting the next attack to come up, and Momentum had worn off, and I did the slow animation and didn't even notice. Yes, sometimes I miss the first attack, and have to do another slow one, and then it's really noticeable. And sometimes you really need to finish off that Paragon Protector before it stands back up and uses Elude, or hit the Sky Raider Engineer to stop his FFG, or etc etc, and the added delay makes a real difference. But most of the time it barely matters. In actual play, TW is not a slow set. It just isn't. |
I didn't even think it was a bad set to pair with Regen (which I did on Beta) unless you wanna go solo AVs/pylons in the maximum possible time or stuff. In normal gameplay I never cared about losing momentum if I had to use a clicky from regen or whatever because I knew the next attack would grant it again. I even preferred old plain BU because I could unleash the AoE chain of doom with +80% damage instead of +50% (Brute numbers, scrapper went down from 100% to 62.5%) but well on a top IO build with high recharge maybe Build Momentum can be better, BU felt like more burst damage to me.
Really, people are saying a 2.2 second animation is slow. It just feels slow.
In reality, Energy Melee, Battle Axe, Super Strength, Dual Blades, Stone Melee, Broadsword, etc. etc. all feature attacks longer than most of these momentum-building 'slower' Titan Weapon attacks.
And once you have done that one 'slow' animation, Titan Weapons is extremely fast 'and' mostly AoE. It's about as awesome as it comes, in my opinion.
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Yeah, gonna have to agree that even when it feels slow for that first swing whiff followed by a second non-Momentum swing it's still awesome cause the first two attacks I took on my Ice/TW tank were cones and just picked up the first momentum required attack so I've finally been able to leave brawl out as a filler for my chain. I can't wait until I get Energy Absorption so I can help with the massive dent the super speedy chains do to my blue bar. I just wish I had more time to play...like right now instead of being stuck at work 
i suspect part of what makes Titan Weapons seem slower in some ways is the lack of solid impact sounds to give more oomph. The whooshing noises don't really convey the devastating impact they have on groups of foes. It's really only when i notice the big pile of enemies around me that i really get a sense for how much DPS it puts out.
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Yeah, that's one thing that street justice got right, and TW didn't get so right. Sound affects how you think about what your powers are accomplishing.
Also, TW against high defense enemies kinda sucks... you need that first hit to get the momentum going.
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I don't have a problem with the sound effects myself. They're not earth-shattering, but it helps make the set feel like you just cracked a whole bunch of people over the head.|
Originally Posted by Organica
Yeah, that's one thing that street justice got right, and TW didn't get so right. Sound affects how you think about what your powers are accomplishing.
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| Also, TW against high defense enemies kinda sucks... you need that first hit to get the momentum going. |
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Actually Build Momentum works very well. It's available at pretty low level and the combined +tohit and 10 seconds of Momentum is nice with powers like Follow Through to stun and shut down the debuff toggles on enemies like Ghosts and Sorcerers. i also like popping it at the start of a fight to open with either Defensive Sweep, Titan Sweep or Whirling Smash.
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Originally Posted by Organica
Also, TW against high defense enemies kinda sucks... you need that first hit to get the momentum going.
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I can see it being skippable on some builds at 50, but the Defensive Sweep power is great for building MO. You have to do it somehow..so why not use a cone which gives MORE chances to hit something, and giving a defense boost?
First off let me say that I think the new Titans Power Set is totally wicked! But I can see an area where it can use some major improvement. It's so ridiculously slow, it's almost too painful to use (both mentally to me and physically to that poor geometry laden, pixilated character in your game). Let me splane, Lucy.
1.) The initial wind up to attack is so painfully slow that it takes more than a few seconds just to deliver the first (hopeful) blow. And even when I do, it does no more damage than any other weapon (as far as I can tell). When I see an enemy I get instantly excited to attack, but a millisecond later I get exasperated because I know it's going to take forever just to swing this massive thing! And within that time the enemy would have struck me at least 2 times?? So I walk away in Titan same
2.) If I am with another player at least I know that I may be protected (imagine a Titan begging for protection) while I prepare to swing my epically amazing weapon of mass destruction (in theory again it doesnt do that much damage, but it looks cool). Again I am forced to walk away in Titan shame
3.) Though the speed of the attacks DO revert to normal (like every other power set), that ONLY happens IF you land the attack?!?! Thats what we call "Momentum"? Momentum is "the speed or force of forward movement of an object". And after that first swing, hit or miss, I am moving, baby!!
Long story short, can you PLEASE kill the painfully long wind up on the Titan Power Set? I'll even take less power for a normal, 4G speed, basic attack pace. Heck ill mail homemade cookies to the Devs personally to gain this for my fellow players!! I'm serious! Common Devs, old buddies " dont let me down."